raised

Alternative to Rechargable Batteries for PF

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Hi all,

Now that it turns out that TLC has officially phased out the Li-Po battery packs for PF, I'm wondering how we as a community are going to power our PF motors from now on. The 'easiest' way would obviously be to switch to PUP, but for people like me, who still have a bunch of M and L motors laying around, this isn't an option. 

So, what are the options in the mean time? I know of only three:

- Batteryboxes with regular recharchable batteries --> Annoying because you have to dissasemble the whole thing all the time
- Buwizz with build-in remote --> Not the ideal step if you for example want light & sound and thus want to include a PFx Brick, or if you are totally hooked on SBrick
- Our well known clone friends from China --> The 'clonebrand that shall not be named' is currently producing Li-Po battery packs that look almost 1-on-1 like the TLC Li-Po packs. However, officially they should be shutting down after the raid, so is this really sustainable? Also, in a matter of ethics: Are we really willing to sponsor them (in this case I'd say yes, since TLC decided to ditch the Li-Po PF battery pack, so there's no alternative anymore)

Spoiler

The latter one is my way forward for the time being. I ordered four of them, which was still cheaper than 1 Li-Po pack from TLC. I'm not sure about the actual capacity since I haven't properly tested them yet, but I heard good reviews from my fellow LUG-members. Plus for charging it's actually better since you can just charge them via USB...

Are there more options that I'm not aware of? And what are you guys and girls currently using as a replacement?

 

/edit after discussions:

- PUP as a system --> Not possible since the PUP batterybox is only that, a batterybox. TLC doesn't produce a LiPo version
- Modding a PF (or PUP) batterybox so that it can hold LiPo batteries --> Not really a mainstream solution, however, for some with experience in modding with electronics this might work pretty well. When it comes to PUP you could even mod PF cables to let the PUP batterybox 'think' it;s currently controlling a train motor. 

Edited by raised
changed some points after discussion

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4 hours ago, raised said:

he 'clonebrand that shall not be named'

Since TLG quit this product I find personally that you may name it.
It's no longer a clone but an aftermarket product, just like car parts are manufactured long after the original company quit them.
Nothing wrong with that so why should this be wrong?

And it is a horrible environment attack that new products need batteries again instead of rechargable "whateverkindof"
For my I think they should be ashamed.

Edited by coinoperator

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1 hour ago, coinoperator said:

And it is a horrible environtment attack that new products need batteries again instead of rechargable "whateverkindof"
For my I think they should be ashamed

+1!!!  

 

2 hours ago, raised said:

in this case I'd say yes, since TLC decided to ditch the Li-Po PF battery pack, so there's no alternative anymore

I fully agree with what you and @coinoperatorhave voiced.
 

Spoiler

 

And I can already hear it: The LEGO LiPo was dangerous because of a, b, and c; it exploded when operated with this and that - or even better - there was a risk (with a chance of 1 in 1E15, which is not zero) that it could potentially explode when d, e, and f, and finally, some people tried to swallow it. And I bet, some people actually were blowing it up and sued TLG … or whatever.

 

Best,
Thorsten

Edited by Toastie

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Anyone know what the cell type is? One could rebuild and maybe even replace with different cells such as 18650 cells if the charge voltage is 4.2 (which it likely is).

 

Edited by Trekkie99

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4 hours ago, Trekkie99 said:

Anyone know what the cell type is? One could rebuild and maybe even replace with different cells such as 18650 cells if the charge voltage is 4.2 (which it likely is).

 

there apear to be to pouch cells of some kind in there. for further information have a look at this site and scroll down a bit there is a description and some photos.

XG BC

Edited by XG BC
missing link

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sorry forgot to put the link in!

XG BC

Edited by XG BC
put link in

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9 hours ago, coinoperator said:

It's no longer a clone but an aftermarket product, just like car parts are manufactured long after the original company quit them.
Nothing wrong with that so why should this be wrong?

Correct!

9 hours ago, coinoperator said:

And it is a horrible environment attack that new products need batteries again instead of rechargable "whateverkindof"
For my I think they should be ashamed.

+10!!! (+1 it's not enough :laugh: ... don't take offense Thorsten! :wink:)

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The only problem I'm affraid of is that lepin uses some junk quality lipo's in it
(owww I said the word)
But I suppose they can easily be replaced by decent ones.

ah you know what
I buy one right now and will make some kind of review of it.

edit
ordered it, just €13,95 :grin:

Edited by coinoperator

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11 minutes ago, coinoperator said:

The only problem I'm affraid of is that lepin uses some junk quality lipo's in it

Phew - I don't know. Just look at what LiPo's cost - today. You may find differences, but not this kind not in the +10 € sector. None-what-so-ever. Plus: They almost always come from … China. It would be thus interesting to find out, what TLG used - well what they ordered, back then - as they don't do electronics (right?). Chances are: They came from China anyways …

So what is decent and what is junk with regard to LiPo's becomes … at least - interesting. BTW, the last LiPo blow-up is history; at least in the media. Time progresses, as technology and production does. And they do learn fast and efficient in China. They are homo sapiens sapiens as well …

Looking forward to your review!

All the best,
Thorsten

(Emanuele … I will never take offense from what you feel and write!)       

 

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We will know when I receive it.

Since i'm an electronics engineer i have enough stuff around for a serious review

 

Ps

Chinese produce good batteries as well as cheap junk, just what you order and pay for.

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22 hours ago, raised said:

Batteryboxes with regular recharchable batteries --> Annoying because you have to dissasemble the whole thing all the time

I think this is the best option. I try to design my locos so that taking out the battery box require moving a minimum of items. For the smaller box 88000, I typically undo the screws so the base is attached to the train base studs, and then the upper part (incl batteries) can be lifted for conveniant change of batteries outside the loco body. 

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2 hours ago, Selander said:

I think this is the best option. I try to design my locos so that taking out the battery box require moving a minimum of items. For the smaller box 88000, I typically undo the screws so the base is attached to the train base studs, and then the upper part (incl batteries) can be lifted for conveniant change of batteries outside the loco body. 

I did this as well for quite some time, but I'm just not happy with the whole hassle of having to buy several battery chargers, having them lay around all the time during an convention etc. etc. When you are at a convention and your train runs empty, you just want to side it, plug in the charger and just wait for three hours till it's charged again. Not at Legoworld at least with that many visitors... 

However, I do agree that 88000 is at least a less big pain in the butt to dissasemble (if you indeed undo the screws beforehand) than the big technic box which I was using in the begin of PF. On the other hand, the AAA batteries have less capacity and run dry quite a lot faster when running big 8 wide trains is my experience. 

 

11 hours ago, coinoperator said:

We will know when I receive it.

Since i'm an electronics engineer i have enough stuff around for a serious review

 

Ps

Chinese produce good batteries as well as cheap junk, just what you order and pay for.

One of my fellow LUG members has several and he said they run for several hours, so that was good enough for me to buy a couple of them for that price. But this sounds like the scientific approach, so I'm looking forward to this!

I'm really wondering indeed wheter the cells themselves are crap or not. Keep indeed in mind that chances are pretty big that lego has the same type of LiPo's in it, I think production costs of these things anyways aren't a lot more than 5-6 euros to begin with. With margin for Chinese resellers this prize would then make sense for a company like Lepin (clone bricks tend to be 2-4 times as cheap as well when produced and ordered in China...) TLC just sold them for ridiculious high prices, also because in the end they aren't an electronics company, they are a toy company, so most prob the knowledge for producing these batteries had to be outsourced / insourced to begin with, (partially) explaining the steep price. 

Edited by raised

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I forgot one option:

The Power Functions® to 9V Battery Adapter by Iron Horse Brick Co. That one ofcourse is a solution as well, and can be bought fully assembled. You just need to dissasemble the battery every time and charge it again. So technically it's part of solution 1 from my opening post.

Edited by raised

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Another alternative is to buy some LIPO batteries for a remote control car / boat / plane. You can get various different physical sizes with different capacities. You can either get ones to hide inside an official battery box - and they are much easier to remove than AAs - or just build your own connector. The PF connections are well documented. The PF battery boxes are a nominal 9V but the motors work fine on 7.4V, the voltage of a 2-cell LIPO. You can get a 5000 mAh 7.4V battery for about £25 in the UK. If all you want are lights, then get a cheap small capacity single cell LIPO, they are fine for driving LEDs. As lots  of RC people use them, they are not too expensive.

 

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If you make your own, don't forget the protection circuitry to keep the LiPO cells from running down too low and overcharging. :wink:

 

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I got the impression that Lego discontinued the LiPo's because international postal regulations changed.

On 6/18/2019 at 4:30 AM, raised said:

The 'easiest' way would obviously be to switch to PUP

PUP won't help, it is just another AAA battery box only it's supped up with built in bluetooth.

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My Ali Express aftermarket version will soon be here.
Just wait for the review....
Maybe it's a good alernative.

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29 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

just another AAA battery box with built in bluetooth.

And it has total different connections so you can say goodbye to your PF motors.
So let find a good aftermarket version.

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Well, there are two problems, the loss of the LiPo battery, which was the starting point of this thread and I was merely commenting on the fact that PUP does not solve that problem. Then there is the lack of backwards compatibility, which is potentially a worse problem brought on by PUP.

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15 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

Then there is the lack of backwards compatibility, which is potentially a worse problem brought on by PUP

True. However, it is really pretty much straight forward to convert PF (train motors) to PUP. All you need is a PUP LED to get hold of the PUP connector cut that off from the LEDs and wire that to a PF connector. The wiring was shown here before Works like a charm on the PUP 2I/O hub. Also with the correct wiring the hub thinks it has a PUP train motor attached.

But the core problem remains, as you pointed out: The PUP 2I/O hub is just a battery box equipped with BLE.

What I simply don't get is TLG's reasoning. If it were for changed postal regulations, how do "battery" powered lawn mowers, cell phones, LiPo batteries themselves, and every other LiPo powered device ever make it across borders? They come into stores and via amazon in unaccountable numbers …

Best
Thorsten        

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I think the LiPo are allowed in ground mail but not air mail, which is particularly bothersome for international mail. The last time I ordered a LiPo from Lego (last fall?) the box arrived with a "do not put on airplane" sticker. I wouldn't be surprised if they just decided that the extra hassle of making sure that the batteries never went by air, e.g., if a customer ordered next day delivery, was just too much of a hassle. That and/or their logistics chain relies on shipping by air. I also believe the restrictions became stronger a couple of months ago, so that probably pushed them over the edge. If they were simply phasing them out, they would have gone on sale, or at least listed as "out of stock" instead of "unavailable". I just wish they had given a little warning, I would have bought a few more. Oh well, from now on I'll have to figure out how to build my models to come apart.

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2 hours ago, Toastie said:

True. However, it is really pretty much straight forward to convert PF (train motors) to PUP. All you need is a PUP LED to get hold of the PUP connector cut that off from the LEDs and wire that to a PF connector. The wiring was shown here before Works like a charm on the PUP 2I/O hub. Also with the correct wiring the hub thinks it has a PUP train motor attached.

But the core problem remains, as you pointed out: The PUP 2I/O hub is just a battery box equipped with BLE.

What I simply don't get is TLG's reasoning. If it were for changed postal regulations, how do "battery" powered lawn mowers, cell phones, LiPo batteries themselves, and every other LiPo powered device ever make it across borders? They come into stores and via amazon in unaccountable numbers …

Best
Thorsten        

It's cheaper to 3D print the PUP connector and use a PF connector/cable from a burnt out PF motor.  (You can salvage quite a few PF cables off PF motors if you've done enough Great Ball Contraptions events.)

 

It's probably not hard to adapt a PUP box to use LiPO cells.  Fabricate an adapter that fits inside in place of the AAA battery holder piece or a complete new bottom with a connector for recharging in place.

Wasn't there a cargo plane (UPS?) brought down by a shipment of lithium batteries?   The last time I flew, I had to had my phone and laptop with me in the passenger compartment.  I couldn't put them in checked baggage.

 

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2 hours ago, dr_spock said:

Wasn't there a cargo plane (UPS?) brought down by a shipment of lithium batteries?   The last time I flew, I had to had my phone and laptop with me in the passenger compartment.  I couldn't put them in checked baggage.

Yes: Was this one, I believe. And yes, I have to do that all the time as well - in China, they even "detected" a ting they gave me for a conference talk deeply within the checked baggage: A small LED light powered by a LiPo - I had to put that into my carry on baggage.

But then what? Why is TLG putting the LiPo to an end of life? There are ships. Trucks. Yes these can suffer from fire as well - but how on earth does all the stuff come from China to the rest of the world? I simply don't get it.

2 hours ago, dr_spock said:

It's cheaper to 3D print the PUP connector

Very interesting! Any tip how I would do that? (Just presume that I am completely CAD illiterate and even worse than that). The PUP LED is around €10 (currently not available in Germany, can't remember the exact price, BL sells them starting around this price). Would like to have a couple of connectors. Anyway, how do you get the metal contacts into the 3D printed plug? Sorry for asking, maybe you have posted that somewhere else?

2 hours ago, dr_spock said:

Fabricate an adapter that fits inside in place of the AAA battery holder piece or a complete new bottom with a connector for recharging in place

Yes, that would work very nicely. However, I believe TLGs LiPo electronics is really nice (with regard to power range for loading - i.e. the 10 V DC wall wart joke:laugh:, overloading protection, overcurrent protection - cool). I already entertained the idea of merging the LiPo electronics with the PUP electronics. The latter could be housed in a flat 4x10 (= the lid) x 4 plates or so height with a direct connection to the LiPo. So far I have retrofitted a couple of my trains with a dual LiPo/PUP (2I/O hub) pack + track power pickup without any severe cutting - it is space demanding though. On the other hand it works really nice. Should post it here …  

Best wishes,
Thorsten   

    

 

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