Jeroen Ottens

How to deal with the thieves

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On a somewhat related note.. I had released a set of free photo-sequence instructions for a C-Model of the 42077 Rally Car set, and someone used those instructions and made digital instructions on how to build the model.. The best part is that they asked me if I wanted to buy them.. You get that? They wanted me to buy instructions for my own model..  :rofl:

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Lipko said:

don't think anyone (seriously) told what one must/should do or mustn't/shoudln't. Many of us just expressed it would be sad for the community if the talented guys, like you, would stop sharing (for me, giving instructions for money is also sharing) or even stop building, just like Madoca did (okay, I'm only speculating). But it's your decision. I'm okay with it, my medicore models can compete finally in the SEOC market :laugh:

Plus another important thing that you forgot to mention in your summary and was an important point in the thread, is that most of you probably don't pay any lincenses after your models, yet you have great advantage making profit with models of brands. These models sell much better than unlicenced models (maybe there are like 4 designers who's custom designs sell well). 

I haven´t ever seen any mediocre model from you. But as always, it´s your privilege to melt into self-pity, Sir :grin:..

The original poster was asking for help/opinions from the community, not for critics from the hypermoralists which btw. he has heard and discussed miltiple times earlier already on this forum. I wondered why some of the higher educated adolescents feel the need to challenge him on the backside and lesson him about ethics. 

Then I was challenged personally, even if this thread is about Jeroen´s crane. Probably we do not pay for brand licenses. We don´t pay to TLG as well for using their brand name (only spent estimated 20-30K on bricks in a lifetime). We are not hiding anythig, but even dare to speak about it. We are not multi billion companies backed by billion head economies. The double standards we are accused of, are trivial compared to the double standards of some hypermoralists. So we are all guilty having commited the ultimate felony: "Don´t spell the name". According to that, the entire rebrickable business needs to be shut down immediately, half of the designers to be procecuted and sent into GULAG. Obviously some people here would love to see that.

 

Edited by brunojj1
referred to wrong post

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21 minutes ago, brunojj1 said:

I haven´t ever seen any mediocre model from you. But as always, it´s your privilege to melt into self-pity, Sir :grin:..

The original poster was asking for help/opinions from the community, not for critics from the hypermoralists which btw. he has heard and discussed miltiple times earlier already on this forum. I wondered why some of the higher educated adolescents feel the need to challenge him on the backside and lesson him about ethics. 

Then I was challenged personally, even if this thread is about Jeroen´s crane. Probably we do not pay for brand licenses. Anybody of us does. We didn´t pay to TLG as well for using their brand name (only spent estimated 20-30K on bricks in a lifetime). We are not hiding anythig, but even dare to speak about it. We are not multi billion companies backed by billion head economies. The double standards we are accused of, are trivial compared to the double standards of some hypermoralists. So we are all guilty having commited the ultimate felony: "Don´t spell the name". According to that, the entire rebrickable business needs to be shut down immediately, half of the designers to be procecuted and sent into GULAG. Obviously some people here would love to see that.

 

I challenged you because your comments led me to believe that you do not seem to understand that what you are doing may not seem to be as immoral as another builder(or company) using your model's design for their own profit, but you are in fact illegally using a company's name on your model for your own monetary gain. I don't know how you or anyone else selling instructions and using a company's name can brush off illegally using their IP(like the ones that Lego actually  pays for) as if it is no big deal, and then complain when someone rips off your model. This is like saying "I only took and egg, but they stole the chicken" As far as the entire rebricakable business needing to be shut down, that is for the owner of that website to decide.

 

7 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

Its comments like this that make me think there are actual apologists for copy-cats brands.  Could this be possible?  As I mentioned earlier, the comparison you are trying to make is inaccurate and unfair at best, irresponsible and perhaps even disingenuous at worst.  I don't think you can compare a mimicking or creating something in the likeness of something else, on a total different scale, in totally different materials, internals, etc. to a direct copy-cat of something in the same materials, scale, piece-by-piece. If we want to paint with such broad strokes then the whole world, literally the whole world, is guilty of copying something from someone else at some point in their lives and the issue becomes moot. 

Oh please. I will defend any AFOL when it comes to their models being stolen, and I have done so in the past. My point is that when AFOL are profiting off of their models using the IP of a company that they are not actually working with, then they can't get too mad when their own ideas get used by someone else.

I would absolutely love for someone with actual law experience come into and post in this thread and give some insight.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Meatman said:

I challenged you because your comments led me to believe that you do not seem to understand that what you are doing may not seem to be as immoral as another builder(or company) using your model's design for their own profit, but you are in fact illegally using a company's name on your model for your own monetary gain. I don't know how you or anyone else selling instructions and using a company's name can brush off illegally using their IP(like the ones that Lego actually  pays for) as if it is no big deal, and then complain when someone rips off your model. This is like saying "I only took and egg, but they stole the chicken" 

10 hours ago, Meatman said:

I am assuming that you didn't get McLaren's permission to use their name correct? Would you be upset if they took legal action against you because you are profiting off of their name by selling instructions?

Thank God I´m doing fine and can buy me a real McLaren very soon :laugh:! So finally all the envy from the poor Lepin collectors can be justified. 

But yes, there are many shades of grey between black and white. You need to make compromises in life, not to regret them.

35 minutes ago, Meatman said:

As far as the entire rebricakable business needing to be shut down, that is for the owner of that website to decide.

The owner of that website is hosting instructions and participating in the sales himself. So he is your main suspect you should be aware of.

 

Edited by brunojj1

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, brunojj1 said:

Thank God I´m doing fine and can buy me a real McLaren very soon :laugh:! So finally all the envy from the poor Lepin collectors can be justified. 

 

 

If you guys were making your own custom models based off of your own ideas, I would be marching right beside you in your crusade against thievery, but unfortunately, that isn't the case here. One of the main reasons why your models are getting stolen is because of the illegally used IP that you have attached to them, which was also helping you sell your instructions in the first place. This whole "I am only taking pennies while they take dollars" excuse is pretty ridiculous. I understand that YOU are the ones designing the models, but the names behind them are just as important, if not more so.

 

 

Edited by Meatman

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Again, thank you all for the responses. There is definitely a point in the 'I also benefit from the brand awareness of the vehicle I am replicating'. In this particular case I did have contact with Liebherr that I was designing this crane and they were fine with that. Having said that, I haven't explicitely asked them whether I could sell the instructions of it. So that adds some perspective to this all.

For me the discussion is not only about making money. At least that is not what is upsetting me the most I guess. If someone would make a set of fake LEGO of the Alpha Romeo 4C Spider (these instructions are for free) I would also be upset. Just like the fact that Madoca's designs were used by clone brands seriously annoyed me. But suppose someone would contact me and ask if he can sell sets of real LEGO bricks of my designs than that can be discussed (in fact I do have these kind of discussions). So for me at least two points upset me:

1) These people sell my exact design against my explicit will not to do that
2) To make it worse they sell clone LEGO, which to me as a former LEGO employee adds injury upon insult as I know how much time and effort is spent in designing the bricks.

As for the legal status of all this I am no expert. All I know is that I have successfully complained at two different hosting providers that these people are infringing on my copyright. And both hostingsites agreed and blacklisted the company (I also complained at the third hostingsite, but they haven't reacted yet). So apparently there are more people that think that making an exact copy against the will of the original designer is illegal.

In the end, I was looking for some peace of mind. Two things have helped there. One is the brand awareness argument which makes it all a bit relative and secondly is the advice to fight dispassionate.

And there is still hope, because when another company contacted me for cooperation (while they already had my crane for sale in fake LEGO), they immediately removed it from their website when I said I didn't want to cooperate with them.

So thanks again for all the advice.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, brunojj1 said:

. So we are all guilty having commited the ultimate felony: "Don´t spell the name". According to that, the entire rebrickable business needs to be shut down immediately, half of the designers to be procecuted and sent into GULAG. Obviously some people here would love to see that.

 

You are overreacting it. Some of us merely said that theft is a bad thing, but we don't see it as bad as you. Because:

  • you can't really do enough about it, you are only wasting time any energy trying to eliminate them. Do some things you can, obviously.
  • you probably aren't loosing too much cash because of it anyway
  • it's obviously worse than you guys' practice of using IP, but you are a tiny bit guilty too
  • stopping to share and build is much much worse than theft, because it not only causes harm to you but the whole community (so we ""want"" pretty much the exact opposite of sending you to GULAG). This things points beyond Lego.

Interestingly the biggest problem with theft (low quality which ruins the designers reputation) is still not discussed. So I guess this whole topic IS really about CASH and EGO.

Edited by Lipko

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Have Lego take benefit of Komatsu without pay for it?, I always thought that the 8265 ad the 8275 were too much similar to a komatsu wa600 and a d475, they were too much beautiful to not to be based in real machines.

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... so the minimum GOOD is that Jeron know's that he has "friends" ( or how you like to call it ) on his side - thats not bad, but not enough.

I write twice to vonado & twice on FB and 3 times the webside was down for a while ....

Does anyone else do so ?

When we all stand together and spend a few minutes, we can show vonado our force/power  , or not ?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, jorgeopesi said:

Have Lego take benefit of Komatsu without pay for it?, I always thought that the 8265 ad the 8275 were too much similar to a komatsu wa600 and a d475, they were too much beautiful to not to be based in real machines.

Don't forget Manitou!

941.png

It should be noted, though, that Manitou telehandlers had been using silver hubs since 2003, so 8283's appearance wasn't overly infringing by 2006.

Edited by Maaboo35

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I think that at the end of the day, no idea is truly original, everything is based on something. Real life cranes are based on previous cranes, Avatar is based on Fern Gully and Technic is based on pre-existing mechanical devices such as gears and linkages. So calls of hypocrisy made directly or implied are unfounded I think. What matters is that Jeroen has put lots of time and effort into creating his design so it's only human to feel like that effort and months of work has been stolen when other people come along and reproduce his exact work. And yes, Lego is a hobby and a fun one at that, but to create something like Jeroens crane, that takes work as well as play. 

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In the evolution of this discussion many of you guys have ventured into the deep mud of IP(!), theft, work, making money. Honesty is thrown in, hope and calls for fairness and fair play. Legal action is discussed as well as may other things as for example clone brands, and whatnot.

 

Sorry. If you want to play fair AND make (some or a lot does not matter) money DON'T communicate anything using the internet as vehicle. These worlds are simply incompatible. As of today. 

You can play fair with people you know very very well. People you trust. Or who do play with some measure of rules - and even here you will find individuals trying to take advantage. Of whatever. But they will. For sure. It seems to be - buried in humans somewhere.

Money. Jeroen was not concerning this when he started this thread. But it came up. It always seem to come up. Money. No, when is comes to money, mankind in itself is not prepared for that fair play thing. Look at the world as it is and tell me, where the fair play takes place when money is an issue. Nowhere. The sole reason for IP and the multi-trillion market handling it is almost a proof for that.

The internet. A wonderful idea - a beautiful way of growing and spreading knowledge. To share ideas. Yeah. And a place and means which is perfectly suited to steal, threat, copy, make money, cheat, do the worst things that people can come up with.

Sorry. I use the internet to communicate ideas - freely - at no charge - and for it is worth for others. And that is it. Oh no there is something else: For fun. For the sole idea of sharing. For growing knowledge, spirit, sparks, participation … without even knowing at all, if that actually works to the modest extent.

All the best,
Thorsten

 

 

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On 5/18/2019 at 2:44 AM, Paul Boratko said:

On a somewhat related note.. I had released a set of free photo-sequence instructions for a C-Model of the 42077 Rally Car set, and someone used those instructions and made digital instructions on how to build the model.. The best part is that they asked me if I wanted to buy them.. You get that? They wanted me to buy instructions for my own model..  :rofl:

Let me ques, Helge Myhre ?!

 

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4 hours ago, Edwin Korstanje said:

Helge Myhre ?!

Oh my, he's still doing that?

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22 minutes ago, M_longer said:

Oh my, he's still doing that?

Yep, but has now found new victims.:devil_laugh:

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Many Facebook user will rememer this :

( I searched many hours , but couldn´t find the Picture ) so I tell it :

An Afol and a chinese seller are in dialog

1)  Chinese seller : " I have a nice KIT for you !"

2) Afol : " But it´s my MOC , here is my building instruction !"

   Chinese seller : ( take the BI off his Hands) " NO !"

3) Afol : "But there is my Name on it !"

4) Chinese seller : (cut off the name ) " NO !"

    Afol ( tears in the eyes)

 

But back to Topic :

Vonando is still activ in Facebook and on his IP

Many commends in FB want to buy the kit or buy the BI . I made some commends there , that they can buy the BI from Jeroen Ottens , a day later my com. were deleted and I´m blocked there.

Many want the Mamoet colour , he will sell it maybe until september !

And I´ve seen , they make own Pictures , I think they will change them soon on there webside !

 

On there webside prangs : "Copyright by Vonando" but they doesn´t take care about Jeroen Ottens Copyright !

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Edwin Korstanje said:

Yep, but has now found new victims.:devil_laugh:

He has banned me some time ago from one of his Facebook groups, because I have pointed few times that he is posting MOCs stolen by Lepin.

Edited by M_longer

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Posted (edited)

 I have just had a very good idea for a system to support designers and also for 'freelance' designing.

It guarantees supporting the lego MOC designers but the small catch is, it requires some work to the eurobricks forum.

The implementation specifics of which I will leave to staff such as @Jim.

It could technically be a standalone service, not part of the forum, but the forum is a better option because:

  • We are mostly made up of lego fans who are supportive, not "business types" who want to steal lego ideas.
  • We have lots of members to support the designers. Both verbally, though part donations, though freelancing, and through physical cash donations.

The way it works is there will be a feature of the forum for members to donate money or just parts in order for the designer to design and update the MOC however if people just want to do a 'generic' donation they still can, say after some MOC progress has been submitted.

This also means that members who lack the money, time, parts, or technical skills needed but want to own something awesome still can have that. It can also be used to complete somebody's MOC that is not fully finished.

The progress of the MOC is discussed between the designer and the member.

They would simply submit an idea and work with the designer. This can be done via the forum or via a PM if somebody is afraid of the actual progress being copied, though the designer will still get paid because the payments are incremental to the submitted MOCs progress.

Note that anybody can donate a publicly freelanced idea not just the 'customer member', Maybe they will get discount on the instructions price in return for donating.

Any questions, Highlight me. :)

Edited by SNIPE

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Hi Jeroen,

I don't know if it's a 100% watertight protection against copyright theft but you should check out the pdf instructions from www.pv-productions.com.
I'm not sure how it works exactly but when you purchase digital instructions the .pdf file will be watermarked with your personal name and date of purchase. Also it will be password protected.

It makes it al lot harder for the copycats to distribute your instructions since it can be led back to them.

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The Lego Name and Logos are a Trademark and have perpetual protection.

The Lego bricks are simply put a mechanical interlocking system, and are not subject to copyright. Every new brick can be patented, but the patent expires in 20 years and everyone can freely use the design.

Not different from a screw, to be able to patent a new Lego part has to have some distinct feature, innovative. Just can't patent whatever I want. So while many Technic parts are patented., most are open domain be it because the patent expired or because ineligibility for a patent. The very foundation of the Lego brick system and Lego Technic are open domain. So now I am free to make every single part used in 8860 for example.

So parts wise, those called "chinese knockoffs" can stay in the clear selling "Lego Sets" as long as they don't use the Lego name, Logos or still protected by a patent parts.

The instructions to make 8860 are subject to copyright and have a very long IP protection which varies from country to country. Can't reproduce without express permission.

The mechanisms used in 8860 aren't patentable, just too basic and broad, so I can make the same exact  functions with the same parts

The design of 8860 itself if it was ever patented is now public domain so I can sell a 8860 with my just made to order parts that is a exact replica of the original

So 8860 can be made and sold, just have to make new instructions even if those contain the same steps, because even id the steps were patentable (hardly so) that would have expired too.

 

For Jeroen's case...

The Jeroen Name and Logos I don't know if are registered -guess not- if no, protection is far weaker than if it really were. He could even lose them...

The bricks used could be original Lego ones or third party. Whatever those are, he is not the rights holder of those, so it isn't up to him.

The instructions are under copyright and DMCA mechanisms his only easy way to get the protection his work deserves.

The mechanisms used are not patented/patentable 

The design, he is not the rights holder, it is Liebherr

The "Lego"  design I am pretty sure does not have a design patent (yeah it costs time and money)

So If the instructions sold are his instructions he can try to fight with DMCA. But if a new set of instructions is made, there is nothing than can be done about it. Sure you could try and by ignorance most DCMA claims are accepted, but a counterclaim could be issued.

In the end IP protection isn't free guys. Just because you made something doesn't mean you are entitled to IP protection, it requires time and money. There are all kind of suits and counter-suits, regular people can't afford. So or it is your business and you invest money on it because the returns justify it or learn to live with it.

Even written works (instructions) should have copyright notices/licenses attached before releasing them int to the wild. Otherwise later can be hard to justify that those weren't released as free works into the public domain.

 

So no matter how emotional people gets about it, without paying upfront, they are not entitled to as much protection as most folks seem to think they are.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2019 at 10:36 AM, Edwin Korstanje said:

Let me ques, Helge Myhre ?!

Interestingly enough this name pops up in the discussion. How can one fight a thief? Fight him if possible! Expose him.

Helge Myhre. He´d had various accounts here on EB where he was trying to advertise his „work“. He got banned various times for some reasons.

Another small example: he modified my mini-piston engine idea of which the design is very simple and nothing spectacular and claimed it his own creation. I was aware of it, but it didn´t really bother me.

Some day he came to visit my YT channel where he praised the Chinese company whose name I don´t want to spell again. I told him you´re not my guest, please go somewhere else. I didn´t curse him or use bad words. After that he put a straight free download link for the instructions of my MOC „in revenge“. Of course I could ban him from my channel, but the link was still active. The file was hosted at bricksafe and luckily its operators are the same as from rebrickable, so I knew whom to contact about the issue. I had to deliver proof first. After investigation the guy was banned from both platforms. I know I haven´t stopped him from doing what he loves doing. He enjoys our talk about him. But it was a sweat victory and a great day in my life.

Edited by brunojj1

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It appears that the web hosting company for vonados website is GoDaddy. Their chat service is busy at the moment though.

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Hi @Jeroen Ottens,

It's a shame and shameless how your model and instructions are stolen by VONADO. Brickstuff is also completely copied with their lighting system by VONADO. Also various other builders are also disadvantaged such as Sheepo. Unfortunately, you did not build the Liebherr crane for the Liebherr company on commission, because then you were legally a lot stronger, Now as a private person it is almost impossible to do justice. This is one of the many reasons why I only work directly for the yard, owner or designer of the real design. My clients receive the exclusive right to my design and I handle the rights to my design. I only deliver my building instructions in printed form, without a partlist and my clients never receive the digital files. This way I can protect their and my rights much better and because I can also use their trademarks, it is a lot harder for third parties to be able to and may copy it, without legal outcome for their.

 

2 hours ago, brunojj1 said:

Interestingly enough this name pops up in the discussion. How can one fight a thief? Fight him if possible! Expose him.

Helge Myhre. He´d had various accounts here on EB where he was trying to advertise his „work“. He got banned various times for some reasons.

Another small example: he modified my mini-piston engine idea of which the design is very simple and nothing spectacular and claimed it his own creation. I was aware of it, but it didn´t really bother me.

Some day he came to visit my YT channel where he praised the Chinese company whose name I don´t want to spell again. I told him you´re not my guest, please go somewhere else. I didn´t curse him or use bad words. After that he put a straight free download link for the instructions of my MOC „in revenge“. Of course I could ban him from my channel, but the link was still active. The file was hosted at bricksafe and luckily its operators are the same as from rebrickable, so I knew whom to contact about the issue. I had to deliver proof first. After investigation the guy was banned from both platforms. I know I haven´t stopped him from doing what he loves doing. He enjoys our talk about him. But it was a sweat victory and a great day in my life.

Hi @ brunojj1, Helge Myhre seems like an incurable disease and, like weeds, keeps coming back. On the entire web, forums, FB and the like, he pretends to be a wolf in sheep's clothing and abuses many builders for his own gain. He usually goes to ask many of our friends to turn the free instructions into good PDF files or could you render these files for me, to the excuses of I would like to make a modification of your model and then sell it for them own gain and that he has designed everything. Never ever trust this guy and is a great scammer. He tried once to find out the instructions with me and later with my client and immediately informed my client that I am not cooperating with that and sometimes he goes a long way to get his way.:hmpf_bad:

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Just now, Edwin Korstanje said:

Hi @Jeroen Ottens,

It's a shame and shameless how your model and instructions are stolen by VONADO. Brickstuff is also completely copied with their lighting system by VONADO. Also various other builders are also disadvantaged such as Sheepo. Unfortunately, you did not build the Liebherr crane for the Liebherr company on commission, because then you were legally a lot stronger, Now as a private person it is almost impossible to do justice. This is one of the many reasons why I only work directly for the yard, owner or designer of the real design. My clients receive the exclusive right to my design and I handle the rights to my design. I only deliver my building instructions in printed form, without a partlist and my clients never receive the digital files. This way I can protect their and my rights much better and because I can also use their trademarks, it is a lot harder for third parties to be able to and may copy it, without legal outcome for their.

 

Hi @ brunojj1, Helge Myhre seems like an incurable disease and, like weeds, keeps coming back. On the entire web, forums, FB and the like, he pretends to be a wolf in sheep's clothing and abuses many builders for his own gain. He usually goes to ask many of our friends to turn the free instructions into good PDF files or could you render these files for me, to the excuses of I would like to make a modification of your model and then sell it for them own gain and that he has designed everything. Never ever trust this guy and is a great scammer. He tried once to find out the instructions with me and later with my client and immediately informed my client that I am not cooperating with that and sometimes he goes a long way to get his way.:hmpf_bad:

Smart people search from whom they're buying from.. If we make threads titled this guy and talk crap about him, maybe it'll bring awareness. 

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