Switch modification

[Haddock51]

 

At Brickworld 2011 in Chicago, OnDrew J. Hartigan made an interesting presentation about various types of modifications of standard LEGO tracks and switches (9V and RC).

The following picture shows a modified switch with the switch throw on the opposite side to provide clearance for 8-wide and Longer rail cars.

Unfortunately - and unlike most of the other modifications presented - there are no details on how to proceed. (According to Hartigan, this modification takes only 20 minutes).

Can somebody provide details on how to proceed with this particular modification?

 

(Copyright OnDrew J. Hartigan 2008 - 2011)

Edited May 13, 2019 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

OK, pure speculation, but I have modified a good number of 9V switches - others may have much more insight.

Without any evidence and just taking the "20 min time frame" as given:

• Remove the base plate: Use a 3 mm sharp metal drill (battery screw driver or the like) to cut off the "riveted" plastic bolt heads.
• Carefully remove the lever inside - this one is spring loaded, learn the function of the springs how to reattach.
• Cut the part originally located on the left side in your picture with a very sharp and thin Dremel (or the like) cutting blade.
• Cut the base plate at exactly the same line.
• Remount the lever in opposite direction, the geometry allows to do that (it is just mirrored).
• Reattach the base plate with some (careful!) superglue at some spots - far away from moving parts. This does not need to be attached as close as it was originally; just here and there a few drops.
• At this point the lever should stick out to the left side
• Use the 1x2 plate to rearrange the throwing mechanism part appropriately (there is a small gap due to the cutting, which is taken care of this way).
• Optionally glue the remaining base plate piece to make everything perfect.

Again: Did not do that, but did "comparable" (i.e. open heart surgery type) things to my 9V switch points.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Thorsten    

[ALCO]

18 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

 

At Brickworld 2011 in Chicago, OnDrew J. Hartigan made an interesting presentation about modifications of standard LEGO tracks and switches (9V and RC) with various types of modifications.

The following picture shows a modified switch with the switch throw on the opposite side to provide clearance for 8-wide and Longer rail cars.

Unfortunately - and unlike most of the other modifications presented - there are no details on how to proceed. (According to Hartigan, this modification takes only 20 minutes).

Can somebody provide details on how to proceed with this particular modification?

 

 

(Copyright OnDrew J. Hartigan 2008 - 2011)

@Haddock51 I know sometimes it can be hard finding old threads, but you might find this one useful. It has detailed instructions on how to move the throw to the other side of the track.

 

[sed6]

Interesting topic, I wonder how swapping sides provides anymore clearance?

[ALCO]

14 minutes ago, sed6 said:

Interesting topic, I wonder how swapping sides provides anymore clearance?

This would allow one to create more compact yard-ladders and position switches in places where normally the throw mechanism would interfere with other track or structures. 

[sed6]

23 minutes ago, ALCO said:

This would allow one to create more compact yard-ladders and position switches in places where normally the throw mechanism would interfere with other track or structures. 

That makes sense I guess, the 8 wide and longer mentioned confused me. 

[Duq]

5 hours ago, sed6 said:

Interesting topic, I wonder how swapping sides provides anymore clearance?

The normal position of the lever is on the inside of a turn. Longer and/or wider trains could hit it. That's not a problem if the lever is on the straight side of the points.

[Hobbes]

I have some switches with his mods he made for me back in the day, but they where geometry changes and removal of the position lock of the throw. So I can't tell you about this particular mod. But here's his brickshelf folder, maybe you can find some hints there...

[Haddock51]

Thank you all for your valuable comments and suggestions.

So far, I have modified some 50 straight 9V tracks (1/2 and 3/4 straight) and some 30 9V points (halfcurves and crossovers). But this modification will be different because it touches the "heart" of the point. Yes, I will give it a try (which will certainly take more than 20 minutes...)

The challenge in my case is the significant overhang of the VT 11.5 nose on the outside of curves. (The distance between the front bogie pivot point and the nose front is 12 studs!).

For more details see the following topic:

 

 

Normally I would have inserted a straight track between the end of the curve and the point to avoid the VT 11.5 nose hitting the lever. However, due to limited space and layout support constructions, this option is not available in this case. Therefore, the only remaining alternative is to move the lever to the opposite side of the point.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

33 minutes ago, Haddock51 said:

Normally I would have inserted a straight track between the end of the curve and the point to avoid the VT 11.5 nose hitting the lever. However, due to limited space and layout support constructions, this option is not available in this case. Therefore, the only remaining alternative is to move the lever to the opposite side of the point.

Hmmm - I don't think it is the only remaining alternative … the whole "switch electrification" ideas (where the yellow lever is removed from the stand), which were discussed amply here, may be another one, depending on your needs. When the stand is not in your way for sure. When the stand remains to be a problem, you may cut away that one off instead of being much more invasive and then use LEGO (technic) bricks to proceed.

All the best,
Thorsten 

[Haddock51]

12 hours ago, Toastie said:

Hmmm - I don't think it is the only remaining alternative … the whole "switch electrification" ideas (where the yellow lever is removed from the stand), which were discussed amply here, may be another one, depending on your needs. When the stand is not in your way for sure. When the stand remains to be a problem, you may cut away that one off instead of being much more invasive and then use LEGO (technic) bricks to proceed.

All the best,
Thorsten 

Thanks @Toastie for your suggestion. I don't think I will proceed with "switch electrification" in this case, for several reasons. As you can see on the (new) picture above, the actual switch leads into a siding that in the future will no longer be used as a ramp for train shelves - as it is today - which means that the lever will be switched just occasionally.

I don't expect any problems w.r.t. the overhang on the inside at the end of this curve. The distance between the pivot points on the coaches is 34 studs, i.e. the same as on the green vintage coaches together with the crocodile (see first sequence in LEGO Train 9V Extreme Part 2 "Passenger Trains Compilation").

Edited May 13, 2019 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

Thanks @Toastie for your suggestion. I don't think I will proceed with "switch electrification" in this case, for several reasons. As you can see on the (new) picture above, the actual switch leads into a siding that in the future will no longer be used as a ramp for train shelves - as it is today - which means that the lever will be switched just occasionally.

I don't expect any problems w.r.t. the overhang on the inside at the end of this curve. The distance between the pivot points on the coaches is 34 studs, i.e. the same as on the green vintage coaches together with the crocodile (see first sequence in LEGO Train 9V Extreme Part 2 "Passenger Trains Compilation").

@Haddock51

It was not about electrification, but maybe using a drive mechanism (without motor). Here is a link to a number of switch drives (photos as well as MLCAD files), which are all based on Ben Coifman's design. With reference to the picture "__SwitchDrive RB12P37ModPFMotor.png": The two panel tiles as well as the cheeses are just for the looks. When you take them away, would that be enough clearance? If not, you can move the bulky drive mechanism further away by small modifications. See MLCAD files for details.

Best
Thorsten 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Toastie
missing link

[Haddock51]

23 hours ago, Toastie said:

@Haddock51

It was not about electrification, but maybe using a drive mechanism (without motor). Here is a link to a number of switch drives (photos as well as MLCAD files), which are all based on Ben Coifman's design. With reference to the picture "__SwitchDrive RB12P37ModPFMotor.png": The two panel tiles as well as the cheeses are just for the looks. When you take them away, would that be enough clearance? If not, you can move the bulky drive mechanism further away by small modifications. See MLCAD files for details.

Best
Thorsten 

@Toastie

I will most likely go for your "20 minute time frame" modification that you posted last thursday. Your proposal seems to be good enough for this particular purpose. Hopefully I can do it before the four months summer Lego break starts at the end of May ....

By the way - talking about modification tools - several years ago, I decided to invest in a Proxxon Micromot DS 230/E jigsaw. To me, this saw has proven the best precision tool for LEGO track and switch modifications, far better than thin Dremel cutting blades and the like.

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Haddock51

[sed6]

Isn't the easy solution to this to simply remove the yellow throw lever? That's what I did on my layout because of the tight turns and long engine overhangs. 

[Haddock51]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 12:16 AM, sed6 said:

Isn't the easy solution to this to simply remove the yellow throw lever? That's what I did on my layout because of the tight turns and long engine overhangs. 

@sed6

To be honest, to remove the yellow throw lever to me is not a solution, rather a walk over. Remove and move back everytime you want to access/exit this siding - no way!

My philosophy is quite simple: This LEGO Train 9V Extreme layout has to work for all my trains, including the VT 11.5. This extreme train - and particularly the nose overhang - has already resulted in more than 20 hours of layout modifications, primarily w.r.t. polycarbonate railings. but also some changes of the track layout (which I partially anticipated when I decided to build this train). 

In comparison, the discussed modification of this point to me is a piece of cake ... And a much more satisfying solution for a LEGO train AFOL...

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

13 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

And a much more satisfying solution for a true LEGO train AFOL...

Well, sounds like, I'd say.

But I would not use the word "true" here. Other LEGO train AFOLs may find it not so true when cutting through bricks is regarded as true. Others do, including me. I'd rather use "for me as LEGO train AFOL". It may also be a piece of cake for you - for others it is not - and they are still LEGO train AFOLs. True or not.

With regard to the jigsaw you are using: What is the thickness of the material removed when cutting? I am using a cheap Dremel clone from ALDI (saving money where I can - to many others in the household having rather demanding hobbies) but with the original Dremel blade - which produces a cut so thin that you can barely see. And I am using a simple jig for the tool mounting for straight cuts. You can only cut to limited depth of course, but again the material removed is next to nothing. At least it is a (cheap) option, as budget limitations have to be taken into consideration.

Best regards,
Thorsten

[Haddock51]

8 hours ago, Toastie said:

But I would not use the word "true" here.

Fixed.

8 hours ago, Toastie said:

With regard to the jigsaw you are using: What is the thickness of the material removed when cutting? I am using a cheap Dremel clone from ALDI (saving money where I can - to many others in the household having rather demanding hobbies) but with the original Dremel blade - which produces a cut so thin that you can barely see. And I am using a simple jig for the tool mounting for straight cuts. You can only cut to limited depth of course, but again the material removed is next to nothing. At least it is a (cheap) option, as budget limitations have to be taken into consideration.

Best regards,
Thorsten

@Toastie

The blade I use is the same blade for manual jigsaws. Very thin indeed. For more technical details visit:

https://www.conrad.de/de/p/proxxon-micromot-ds-230-e-dekupiersaege-85-w-saegeblattlaenge-130-mm-816320.html

I guess the main advantage with this jigsaw is the fact that - unlike with a Dremel - the blade is mounted which guarantees straight cutting lines. In addition, the cutting depth is almost unlimited which is an advantage when you modify points.

When it comes to gluing, I use Zap-a-gap, a superior and fast drying glue.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Haddock51

[baard]

Hi

Following this with interest

Why not use a simple technic solution that moves the lever as far out as you need it. 

See below  how the technic gear rack https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?id=697#T=C  moves the lever. Using a few

parts you can easily place the lever as many studs to the side as you want. You may have to raise your switch a plate or two, but heck, it will be an all Lego solution.

Good luck!

 

[Haddock51]

Thank you @baard for this interesting proposal! Amazing how many suggestions that have come up so far on a "simple" topic like switch modification ...

I think your idea with the technic gear rack could be feasable. However, I need to better understand this construction and how it works. Could you provide additional pictures showing this construction dismantled? How is the technic gear rack linked to the lever inside the switch? Where and to what is the lowered shaft on the right side leading? Is it electrically operated? 

If I choose to operate this switch manually using a technic gear rack together with a throw lever, how can I be/make sure that the switch is fixed in the selected positions? The inside lever is spring loaded (see @Toasties input from last thursday), would that mechanism still work?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Haddock51

[ALCO]

@Haddock51 You may also want to consider using pneumatics to change your points. See this thread and go down to the posts starting in April this year. Looking at your layout, it would be very easy to apply the small piston which is 1x1x5L. so laying on it's side on your layout, the piston will not come above the top of the rail. You can also easily attach a position indicator to the mechanism controlling your point. This might be a lot cheaper and less frustrating than using a motor and gears to control your points. I am assuming you do not mind drilling more holes into the sheets on which your track is laying. Seems to me you may not as you have the power to your track hidden pretty well. Note in the linked thread, I still have to upload a photo/video of the position indicator. I know a lot of folks say pneumatics are expensive, but if a small piston is $6.50 each while expensive, is less than the price of a motor for each point. 

[Toastie]

@Haddock51

It depends on what you want to do: Remote control and/or clearance of way. When it is remote control then there are ample of options. Motors, pneumatics … but I though that was not your main motivation for the invasive switch modification method.

When you want to manually throw your switch than indeed there are as many option to clear way. When you'd ask me, I like Ben Coifman's approach the most. Simply because the throwing mechanism never exerts any forces perpendicular to the motion of the (extension) lever. This is, what I tried to point out in the link to the various switch point drives I am using. You can kick the mostly technic brick built lever as hard as you wish, but the whole thing will not come off the point. This is a pain in the butt when you don't do it that way. There are always uplifting forces, eventually separating the switch from the attached mechanism. The Coifman design does not need any track elevation or the like. It attaches plainly >onto< the switch. 

Do you have MLCAD? You can easily figure out how it works.

If not, I am happy to render some pictures.

And for sure, @ALCO's and @baard's suggestions work as well.

All the best,
Thorsten 

[Haddock51]

17 hours ago, Toastie said:

@Haddock51

It depends on what you want to do: Remote control and/or clearance of way.

The main reason behind this modification is to provide clearance. Remote control - both electric and pneumatic - are not on top of my agenda, for reasons mainly related to the complexity of this layout. To spend a lot of effort on a remote switch with medium to low importance is simply not proportionate to the outcome. Having said that, my focus remains on manually operated solutions.

No, I don't use MLCAD any longer (a tool I abandonned many years ago for couple of reasons).

I basically share your comments w.r.t. Ben Coiffman's approach. So @Toastie, I would be happy if you could render some more pictures.

[Toastie]

4 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

No, I don't use MLCAD any longer (a tool I abandonned many years ago for couple of reasons).

I do - but this is just because I know it by heart - there are many other nice tools out there handling mpd (and the like) LDraw based files - maybe much better but … you know … I am using MS Word as well for texts … grew up with Word 5.5 on DOS 6.0 … now I am on Office 2013 (= 6 years outdated!) and Win10 (= in the loop) … people keep telling me that I am nuts. Well from my perspective it appears to be a cool thing being nuts - everything simply works around me. And this is all I want …

I am very happy to do some rendering (using Stud.io) - is Sunday OK or do you need to rush things? I'd rush things for you then as well.

All the best,
Thorsten  

[Duq]

@Toastie We're going a little off-topic here but it's interesting.

Ben used a version of that as the reverse engineering challenge in Railbricks (remember?) and while working on that I came up with this variation:

PF points motor by Duq, on Flickr

The nice thing about this construction is that it can't pull itself apart.

[Haddock51]

27 minutes ago, Toastie said:

I am very happy to do some rendering (using Stud.io) - is Sunday OK or do you need to rush things? I'd rush things for you then as well.

There is no rush at all.

I am still using LDD despite all the missing  pieces. Several Swebrick members have been trying to convince me to move to Stud.io but I still have not made up my mind. They also told me that I can use Stud.io files in LDD.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Haddock51