ProvenceTristram

I feel like Eurobricks is something of an old boys club

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, astral brick said:

Given that I am not sure if it is a good idea to reply to this thread, why do you need to receive comments in order to feel appreciated? This is a narcissistic childish behaviour. You are the first judge of your work and, sharing it or not, you should be happy doing what you like, and that should be enough, regardless of the amount of feedback. This kind of attitude based on the number of "likes" or "views" or "followers" is dumbing down the internet. I cannot believe what I am about to say but sometimes I miss Usenet.

That is the point of posting anything if not to receive feedback? Unless you are a member of one of the social groups (and I am not, and have no desire to be), or exchanging tips and techniques, the purpose of the site boils down to posting creations to solicit feedback.

Edited by ProvenceTristram

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16 hours ago, ShaydDeGrai said:

So, if the OP is  frustrated about the reception he's gotten, it might not be about digital vs physical designs, it may just be reflection of the audience that stumbled upon them.

Yupp, definitely. And the nature of the forum with its many sub-categories tapeworm threads doesn't help. You could post the most awesome thing and it would still go unnoticed when it gets buried in the wrong sub-forum or on page 20 of an endlessly long thread...

Mylenium

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4 hours ago, astral brick said:

This is a narcissistic childish behaviour. 

can we lose the incorrect assumption that it's childish?
I see the word childish thrown around a shit ton when it's a simple case of human nature for some people to get angry and lose control of their emotions-something people do of ANY age, not just children, or not feel their work is valued and feel frustrated because of it. This can happen at any age, not just in children. The ability to hold it in is irrelevant to age.

 

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I completely agree which is why I'm rarely here. Not only is it elitist but it's to an insane level rarely even seen on other sites. Very off putting.

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I still believe Eurobricks is a friendly and welcoming environment.

Regarding comments or a lack thereof, I learned simply to lower my expectations. Lots of views is worth something. Everyone posts replies differently, and while I frequently posted comments to MOCs in the past, I've been rather quiet of late. I still enjoy viewing good material, but for some reason just don't feel as compelled to speak on it. I didn't realize that the forum as a whole had gotten more quiet in that regard.

I don't fault people for simple comments like "Neat build" if that's truly how they feel, although I do prefer a little depth - something to think about, or to post a follow-up reply to. But we all have our unique preferences: I don't generally like comments about "improving" the build, because there are always reasons why I build a certain way, usually pertaining to the limits of my collection.

It seems digital designs don't always get the same respect as physical builds. I suppose doing the very best to make digitals as lifelike as possible might help? I have enjoyed viewing several of the designs in question, even if I didn't comment.

I think the combined quantity and quality of material being posted has some effect on comments. The first time I see a highly-textured near-lifelike build of something, I will be impressed, and probably comment. By the time I've seen 10 more lookalikes, it's old news. Sad, but true. Unique material sticks in my memory the best for this reason.

Don't give up on the forum. It might not be perfect, and (like many hobbies) it may have some elitist moments, but it's still a pleasant environment overall.

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42 minutes ago, Captain Dee said:

It seems digital designs don't always get the same respect as physical builds. I suppose doing the very best to make digitals as lifelike as possible might help?

Apparently I can only speak for myself, but my issue with many digital builds is that they haven't proven that they can work in reality and therefore I'm always skeptical, even more so since my line of work as a 3D artist doing engineering visualizations has taught me a thing or two about how you can a) make a totally rubbish piece of machinery still look good and b) how in reverse you can concoct the nicest machines in a CAD program and in practice they still don't work as expected. That's the reason why engineers still build prototypes. I guess it's that ambiguity that makes me wary about pure digital creations. I don't mean to use it against the OP or anyone who's doing it, but it's just how I feel about the matter. I don't think making them even more "lifelike" would help in any way, as in my opinion it doesn't mitigate the deeper underlying issue. And it would be a pain to actually make digital models look slightly crooked, add subtle variations in color and placement to each brick like they would have when built physically. The effort required to do so could easily rival a full commercial production.

Mylenium

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16 hours ago, Johnny1360 said:

I guess I am somewhat of a throwback, I have no use for any digital designs, I am very much enjoying the physical aspect of building with bricks to me that is what it is all about. However if others enjoy digital building, good for them, I am glad they found something they like, no reason to insult me though. Enjoy. 

This. It takes a lot more for me to enjoy a digital build compared to a similar brick-built build because the actual physical bricks is a really big part of the LEGO hobby for me.

That said, people not commenting on mocs does not necessarily mean that they aren't enjoying them. I enjoy many pictures of LEGO every day that I don't necessarily comment on. As others have mentioned, you shouldn't post pictures here with the sole purpose to get fantastic comments. If so, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

And if comments and praise is what you're after, there's other places more suitable/likely to gather such attention - like LEGO groups on facebook, where people can like and/or comment much easier/faster, on the fly on their phones.

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@Mylenium By "lifelike" I meant making digital designs within the realistic limitations of real bricks and renders as close to photography as possible. I agree that a good digital design is one that can be replicated in physical bricks.

Whether digital or physical bricks, I get the most viewing enjoyment from designs/builds that encourage me to spend some time studying what I'm looking at.

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Posted (edited)

In my experience I shared about 15 MOCs on Bricklink, Reddit, Eurobricks, Flickr, Lego Ideas, Facebook Groups, Instagram ecc. and I was very frustrated, nobody viewed them. I thought that my creations weren't liked. The fact is that everything goes only around visibility, and not about the real quality of the creation.

I tried to make a test, I spammed (I know it's incorrect) one of my creations in the comment section under a post of a big page and in one day I received circa 100 likes, with people that complimented me and told me that they would have bought that MOC if it was on the market. After that brief moment of visibility I'm still ignored by everybody, with the mass of people that are attracted by big page/users that are growing up like black holes. In this system it's impossible to emerge without the help of some of these "black holes" who took advantage of the internet and social media when they were just born.

PS. in this site i did't notice the "black hole" effect, unlike all the others. In my opinion this is a very good community, maybe with less interactions and reactions/feedback compared to other "communities", but I have always found people willing to help. It's genuine.  

Edited by Mbrick

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3 hours ago, Maple said:

Not only is it elitist but it's to an insane level rarely even seen on other sites. Very off putting.

Sorry to hear that. Is it a specific section of the site or is it in relation to the OP's case of LDD MOCs not getting any attention?

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4 hours ago, Maple said:

I completely agree which is why I'm rarely here. Not only is it elitist but it's to an insane level rarely even seen on other sites. Very off putting.

I feel this is rather exaggerating. If it is as bad as you're saying, it'd be glaringly obvious. But it's not. It's I've seen physical builds get no attention, I've seen ldd builds get no attention. Ldd gets less more often, but I believe that's simply due to many various reasons as already posted, absolutely none of which are to do with elitism. 

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Sorry to hear about your frustration @ProvenceTristram.

Times change.

Digital builds have become very popular; there are times I actually have to really study a build to see if it's digital or brick built.  I also understand your rationale for building digital.  Bricks cost money.  A dedicated room/space to build costs money.  TIME costs money!!!  So if someone chooses to build in digital, then so be it.  It shouldn't be a problem and if you encounter an issue with members being rude, then please let one of us know.

The internet shines with laziness...it's so much easier to put a like on a photo and not have to comment.  And as we (the staff) have seen, this has become apparent on Eurobricks.  Yet there are still tons of comments...but not where I think they belong.  Example, take a look at how many pages of future released set topics there are and look at the quantity/quality of those comments.  Wish-listing, hatred, bitching...and sometimes actual critique.  And that's in just the Star Wars 2019 thread.

I think you need to ask yourself, if you want critique, do you really want it from those people?  I would not!  I build for myself and if I need assistance, I have LUG members or members of EB who I can ask for help/observations.  I find this community, for the most part, to be a friendly, welcoming community.  Of course there are a few turds that need to be flushed now and then, Overall though, this is a fair, honest, friendly site.  Made many friendships though this site and through conventions attended; I literally have couches across the world I can crash on.

I've got a few builders in the Great Brick War game who have really improved in their building and photography skills.  Problem is, the comments are usually from just those that participate in the game.  These are people who are "literally" looking for feedback as they wish to learn new techniques, new ideas, new combinations to create...and unfortunately, they only get a few pieces of input.

Honestly, since I have become staff, I don't get to look at as many builds as I used to, and that's on me.  In your builds, do you ask for specific critique?  Maybe for comments on a specific part or assembly?  I mean, if people don't know you want some feedback, they may not give it.

I understand your frustration, I really do.  Try not to pigeon hole the entire site though.  In the end, you can say what you want...with some limitation...but you don't want that to bite you in the ass in the long run.  Issues, reach out to staff.  Just ask around, I try to keep an open mind and help out all I can on this site.

 

Stash / Adam

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21 minutes ago, Stash2Sixx said:

The internet shines with laziness...it's so much easier to put a like on a photo and not have to comment.  And as we (the staff) have seen, this has become apparent on Eurobricks.  Yet there are still tons of comments...but not where I think they belong.  Example, take a look at how many pages of future released set topics there are and look at the quantity/quality of those comments.  Wish-listing, hatred, bitching...and sometimes actual critique.  And that's in just the Star Wars 2019 thread.

I think you need to ask yourself, if you want critique, do you really want it from those people?  I would not!

Pretty harsh mate.

I don't want to derail this thread but, come on now; if those people were to take those comments elsewhere, this forum would be dead as the Dodo. I can agree on the hatred bit, if that indeed happens, but the rest? What's wrong with Wish-listing? bitching (as long as it's not over the top). My opinions on a new set are my own and nobody is going to change that for me, so why would I come here for that? I come here to get the latest news, discuss with others who share the interest, and sometimes just friendly chat.

Sometimes that involves telling others what I'd like to see coming, sometimes it's to voice my displeasure at something, and yet other times it's to do my little bit to make Eurobricks a better place to be, when I can.

I wouldn't have replied here but you're a moderator so I felt I had to.

Anyway, please don't let this take away from the OP's concerns.

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1 hour ago, Stash2Sixx said:

I think you need to ask yourself, if you want critique, do you really want it from those people?  I would not!  I build for myself and if I need assistance, I have LUG members or members of EB who I can ask for help/observations. 

I am in agreement with you, this should be the spirit.

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2 hours ago, leafan said:

Pretty harsh mate.

I don't want to derail this thread but, come on now; if those people were to take those comments elsewhere, this forum would be dead as the Dodo. I can agree on the hatred bit, if that indeed happens, but the rest? What's wrong with Wish-listing? bitching (as long as it's not over the top). My opinions on a new set are my own and nobody is going to change that for me, so why would I come here for that? I come here to get the latest news, discuss with others who share the interest, and sometimes just friendly chat.

Sometimes that involves telling others what I'd like to see coming, sometimes it's to voice my displeasure at something, and yet other times it's to do my little bit to make Eurobricks a better place to be, when I can.

I wouldn't have replied here but you're a moderator so I felt I had to.

Anyway, please don't let this take away from the OP's concerns.

Not a derailment, you are free to express your opinion.  Since I am a moderator, I would be happy to explain.

I want people to express their views, that's not a problem.  When others try to shut fellow members up and get rude when they don't have the same views...there's a problem!  Wish-listing is prohibited in that SW thread I was talking about, yet people still do it...that's a problem.  The nasty attitudes towards others...that's a problem.  So, I don't see a problem calling out laziness.  It may seem harsh...but would you prefer I was all wishy washy and unclear as to what I was saying?  When that happens, there's just more confusion or misunderstanding.  Did you actually take a look into the SW 2019 thread I was talking about?  Or did you assume I was just being mean and not realize there have been extreme issues in that thread in the past?  If you assumed, then you have proven my point that laziness is all around the internet.  If you did take a look, then you can see how many 'sour' personalities there are in that thread on some days.

I'm not trying to cause an issue or problems.  If I'm too honest or direct for you, that's who I am.  I'll say the same about you to others as I would to your face.

49 minutes ago, astral brick said:

I am in agreement with you, this should be the spirit.

And if you don't have people to go to, reach out to the moderators.  We can help find someone or offer up feedback ourselves.

Maybe in the past some moderators ruled with an iron fist.  We don't.  Unless you try to be the Batman of Eurobricks...then we will squash that right away!

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Maybe there could be an option to enable a "likes" system when you start a new threat?

Like whenever you start a new threat, a message will appear asking to the OP if they wold like to enable the option to like posts in your threat

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20 hours ago, ProvenceTristram said:

That is the point of posting anything if not to receive feedback? Unless you are a member of one of the social groups (and I am not, and have no desire to be), or exchanging tips and techniques, the purpose of the site boils down to posting creations to solicit feedback.

I’d argue that is one reason to post things. It’s certainly understandable to want your stuff appreciated & to know, with comments, that people do. However, taking it out on an entire community when that want isn’t met is strange. Perhaps a different approach would be to ask why you aren’t receiving little to no communication on your MOCs. That’s why I chimed in. 

I don’t build MOCs, but I can understand your feeling. Putting a lot of work into something, something that you would expect to get recognition. Then that doesn’t happen, it would irk plenty of people I’m sure. And that is a big reason for forums like this, discussion.

I do post pictures on Instagram of my own making or of my town. I do it for myself because I’ve come to enjoy taking pictures of my minifigs. They’re not particularly good(in the sense that there’s no effects created or some fancy camera used), but I post them in the hopes that some people will like them too. They do, a bit. But I don’t bite the heads of people because I don’t get more. 

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17 hours ago, Stash2Sixx said:
19 hours ago, leafan said:

 

 

I believe there may have been a slight misunderstanding between you two? 

While I understand what you were alluding to Stash, and fully agree with you, you didn't correctly name the specific 'lego star wars set discussion 20**' thread as being the incorrect thread for the comments etc you referred to, but 'future released set' discussions being in the 2019 thread, of which, future released sets sounds like you're referring to the rumoured sets (because 'released')... Not the wishlisting which doesn't belong in the 2019 set discussion thread but the 'future star wars sets' thread. For someone that frequents the star wars forums, I get what you meant, but if leaf doesn't frequent them, adding the word 'released' could have been cause for misunderstanding? 

 

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Hi @ProvenceTristram I'm sorry that you have to feel this way.  I have been in that place before. Not all creations are appreciated equally. That's just the reality. Things just fall through the cracks and at this time and age -- attention is a currency. This is not just in Eurobricks. If you have wandered in social media -- Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc, you are measured by the number of likes you receive which is very detrimental to some people's self-esteem and more importantly, mental health. This is a very serious problem that is creeping in every society. 

On 4/25/2019 at 11:19 PM, ProvenceTristram said:

[...]
Simply put: after several years on Eurobricks, I've come to the conclusion that this is an elitist, rich man's venue in which the people who can lay out the big dough to buy Lego in high quantities are showered with adulation, and those who cannot are met with a loose assortment of scowls, quiet chuckles, and pitied glances.
[...]
[...]
But the universal truth that those of us who labor in the dirt mines of LDD live under is that, unless we somehow muster up the means to physically assemble the model, all our efforts mean squat to vast majority of the people on this website.  
[...]

Sad that this is the conclusion that you arrived after so many years in Eurobricks. I don't consider myself a rich man. I have budget restraints. I  also worked and posted things done in LDD and received more comments than I expected. The biggest difference how I approach my work with your work is that I don't expect anything in return. This is important -- because when you know the value of your work, you don't need others to evaluate your work. Taking a page from my personal experience - I write long reviews here in Eurobricks. Others appreciate it. Others may find it boring. Do I care if it bombs or does not get featured in frontpage? NO. I enjoy the process and I do it for myself. Not for others.

I think the experience you get from Eurobricks is also the manifestation of your motivations and networking effort.  This is not far from what you get in the real world. I work in an environment that "packaging" a work is more important than the actual work itself because if you cannot sell the idea - no one will buy it. Same with any posts or MOCs here whether physical or digital. Remember, this is a community and not just your random pub that you can walk in.

If you don't try to build relationships and sell the idea (social media, forums, et al)-- you'll go nowhere.

 

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On 4/27/2019 at 12:49 AM, Stash2Sixx said:

So, I don't see a problem calling out laziness.  It may seem harsh...but would you prefer I was all wishy washy and unclear as to what I was saying?  When that happens, there's just more confusion or misunderstanding.

I don't see why "wishy washy" is an issue; I didn't mention it. But yeah I'd rather people be clear, of course.

On 4/27/2019 at 12:49 AM, Stash2Sixx said:

Did you actually take a look into the SW 2019 thread I was talking about?  Or did you assume I was just being mean and not realize there have been extreme issues in that thread in the past?  If you assumed, then you have proven my point that laziness is all around the internet.

No because, ironically, you were not clear. I have rarely looked at that thread.

But, as @Fuppylodders eluded to, I think there's been a misunderstanding:

On 4/27/2019 at 6:31 PM, Fuppylodders said:

I believe there may have been a slight misunderstanding between you two? 

While I understand what you were alluding to Stash, and fully agree with you, you didn't correctly name the specific 'lego star wars set discussion 20**' thread as being the incorrect thread for the comments etc you referred to, but 'future released set' discussions being in the 2019 thread, of which, future released sets sounds like you're referring to the rumoured sets (because 'released')... Not the wishlisting which doesn't belong in the 2019 set discussion thread but the 'future star wars sets' thread. For someone that frequents the star wars forums, I get what you meant, but if leaf doesn't frequent them, adding the word 'released' could have been cause for misunderstanding? 

Yeah seems so. I'm still not sure honestly. If you're only referring to the SW thread, fair enough; if not, then I take exception to your lazy comments. So what is it?

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I just took a look at the HMS Dionard thread. I rarely visit that sub-forum, but if I did I'm not really sure whether I would be drawn to the thread. I haven't really got a clue what it is from the title - maybe it is just because I am not into this sort of thing. But even then, to comment I like to see some detail. I'm not a fan of the backgrounds, I tend to skip any images with those in. I thought the first picture was from a book on first glance. So if I had seen it on browsing, I would have skipped it completely without commenting. If you solved an interesting problem or came up with some nice design feature, I think it is worth including some close ups. I'm here mainly for the LEGO, so I like to see the LEGO up close.

 

 

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Just following this conversation (it is not just another "thread" - it is a true, very polite, and respectful >conversation<) says it all. There are some who express their views with more impetus, there are others who voice their view in a less strict way. Moderators, builders, visitors, actively responding members, others - all with contributions I want to read. Some apologize for their initial response, others follow up on their reactions. Does it get any better?  

The quality of this conversation alone says everything about EB.

I believe that this conversation should be frontpaged. It would stand out. I just came here by accident. This is EB culture to its best.

My 2 cents: In the very beginning, when I started to post on EB almost a decade ago, I had exactly the same feelings as @ProvenceTristram. Very little responses. 

But then, diving more into it - seeing the "speculation about if when where, should could would, this and that" >threads< with billions of entries, I decided to just ignore those and move on. Move on to learning. Yes, some folks have a lot to spend. I am very happy that they can do so! Not the point. I go to … the Technic forum and - learn. There are sheds, there are corners - it is unbelievable, what these folks construct. I will never ever be able to do that. But: I love to learn. Or simply enjoy. Mostly quietly. I visit many other forums - been to the new Mindstorms forum? Thread count really low BUT: For me the most interesting place - to learn.

So all I am doing when posting is to (probably) let other people try what I did, modify what I did, or tell me, where I can improve. No response necessary.

It is not about getting replies, it is all about sharing knowledge, fun, excitement, silly things, cool things, you name it. Pressing "Submit" is the moment of reward. It is a privilege to be able to do so.

Your creations are - every single one - beyond believe for me. I cannot comprehend how you do that. Before you started this conversation, I was sure that you know that for yourself and don't care about replies at all. A comment from my side appeared always misplaced, taking into consideration my very limited virtual building abilities.    

All the best,
Thorsten    

  

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I think everyone's comments have some merit here.

@ProvenceTristram I think part of your problem is that you are largely a trains guy, and trains are a niche topic. I like to build in the Architecture theme and the digital builds I do never get as much attention as I would like :cry_sad: but part of that is that Architecture is a very niche theme, so few people are going to want to drop in on one of my threads to begin with. I know I definitely don't often get around to the Train Tech subforum very often. Also, the Star Wars subforum is overrun with discussion about current sets, speculation about future ones, and highly active topics concerning "canonical" MOCs. Smaller places like Action & Adventure Themes are a little more welcoming, I think. I can think of possibly one or two people with more money than skill but they are very few and far between.

I do think there is some bias against digital builds, but some people (e.g.) @Bricked1980 get lots of traction with their work, and this is because of the widespread networks and relationships they are able to develop, alluding to what @makoy said.

On 4/26/2019 at 9:25 AM, Fuppylodders said:

can we lose the incorrect assumption that it's childish?

Absolutely. If I didn't want people to pay attention to the things I do (as infrequently as I do them... :look:) I wouldn't post MOCs at all.

On 4/26/2019 at 5:00 PM, Stash2Sixx said:

The internet shines with laziness...it's so much easier to put a like on a photo and not have to comment.  And as we (the staff) have seen, this has become apparent on Eurobricks.  Yet there are still tons of comments...but not where I think they belong.  Example, take a look at how many pages of future released set topics there are and look at the quantity/quality of those comments.  Wish-listing, hatred, bitching...and sometimes actual critique.  And that's in just the Star Wars 2019 thread. 

I mean that's true, but way back at the beginning of Eurobricks it was always people sh*tposting about Star Wars & such.

On 4/25/2019 at 6:33 PM, Hinckley said:

I've noticed the aversion to acceptance of digital models as a viable medium for expressing LEGO creativity. Is Eurobricks less welcoming to digital models than other communities? How many discussion forum communities are still out there? :look:

As intimidating as it can seem here, at least we have a community. Classic-Space is dead, FBTB is dead, Classic-Castle is just about holding on. Then there's Reddit, but that feels hugely impersonal and alienating compared to here.

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I may be late to the parade but this is my take on it.  I build in both mediums (digital and physical) I find in digital im not limited by my brick selection so in some ways I dont have to be as creative as if I didnt have the brick to do the same thing with.  However I personally build largely in LDD some creations make it over to brick but most do not.  I do have a room full of lego but i do not dissassemble ... Most of my brick is assembled and boxed for shows ... Leaving a mere 24 totes of buildable brick with a not so vast selection.  So I find myself building in LDD then ordering on bricklink if its something for a display.  But sometimes I have the bricks on hand.  I work for a living and have never seen a silver spoon ... More so a wooden one that was carved by hand lol.  So I have a modest budget to persue my hobby.

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On 4/26/2019 at 1:19 AM, ProvenceTristram said:

Because the bucks matter more to you than the brains. It's not exclusive to the rank and file, either - the moderators never showcase digital work; they couldn't care less unless it's built and shelf-ready

I posted a digital creation the other day on Instagram and Facebook and eventually it will find its way onto Classic-Pirates.com.

Are you suggesting you'd like to see more digital work on the Eurobricks frontpage?

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