Is Creator's Three-In-One Line Underappreciated by AFOLs?

[Digger of Bricks]

Do you feel that Creator's Three-In-One line is underappreciated to any degree by AFOLs? If so, why? 

• Is it the limited color selection for most of its sets historically?
• Is it due to its tendency towards usage of more basic, preexisting bricks and/or parts within its sets?
• Is it the Three-In-One alternate build approach its sets take?
• Is it due to its historical tendency towards usage of only preexisting minifigure prints and/or parts?
• Is it due to its historically limited coverage of other playset subject matters, themes, and genres?
• Is it simply not as exciting as other themes and offerings from Lego?
• Is it something else altogether entirely? 

[ExeSandbox]

From around 2010 onwards, the designs of Creator 3in1 models does feel like it's suitable for AFOLs, though I am not sure if AFOLs are actually interested in it or not. I think the limited color selection does not make it less desirable, if not more if you compare with with today's Creator 3in1 sets, which a lot of them is just a vomit of colors (I mean that in the most neutral way). And the limited color selection also helps in easily identifying which sets have more of a certain color when building MOCs. 

In terms of using more basic and generic parts, I don't really think that's the case too, because who could get enough of bricks :D. Also, a lot of the times, I find that basic bricks are very important for many types of MOCs, and if they are not into building MOCs, I don't see why this is a problem. 

I do find that Creator 3in1 is presented in a more child-oriented way especially with it's 3in1 thingy, even more so today, which may get AFOLs to assume that it's a kids theme and not look further into it.  But then, the Creator 3in1 sets of the past has got stuff like houses, cars and rigs, which are all AFOL stuff, and those have equally cool alternate models, as compared to today, so I am not very sure. 

I can't really relate to other AFOLs, cause I got a weird taste myself, but I don't mind Creator playsets using preexisting minifigure prints and parts. It makes it feel a lot more LEGO-ey and sort of purer in some way, knowing that there is no special print or element can help get you to focus on the overall build itself. I think that Creator 3in1 has quite a wide range of themes and genres, from houses, cars, robots, animals, etc. Of course, not all of them is to everyone's taste but if I see a cool house or car, I'll be sure to pick one up. 

Generally, I would assume that due to Creator 3in1 having a more child-oriented design and scheme, that might cause AFOLs to not take the theme too seriously, and the designs of today's Creator 3in1 set does not help either (I really do not like the recent Creator 3in1 designs ). Plus, it also covers such a broad amount of subjects with no single focal point (for example, Ninjago is about ninjas), and each subject is geared towards a different audience, so in the end there isn't much to be said about the theme in general. 

But those are just my two-cents, I have seriously no idea what AFOLs think about Creator 3in1. 

 

[Digger of Bricks]

14 minutes ago, ExeSandbox said:

But those are just my two-cents, I have seriously no idea what AFOLs think about Creator 3in1. 

Thanks alot for that! I was also hoping to gain others' personal feelings on the subtheme as insight, not only just others' insight on other AFOLs feelings on such!  

[Karalora]

I've picked up a few 3-in-1 sets over the years, sometimes to fill out my bricks of a certain color but usually because a particular build really appealed to me. I tend to like the "outdoorsy" themed ones like the Lakeside Lodge or Treehouse Adventures--you don't get many wilderness scenes unless the Police or Fire sub-themes are tied in somehow.

But overall, if AFOLs don't go for 3-in-1 sets, it might be because they come across a little generic. What's happening in this set? Not much, you just build it (and then take it apart and build it again, and then take it apart and build it again), and then...there it is! Sitting there! Most of the City-type 3-in-1 sets depict minifigures going about their daily life, which is fine in itself, but when you're an adult, you already do that stuff for real all the time, without the medium of LEGO. Building a simple ice cream shop is not as enthralling when you have the option to go to a real ice cream shop any day you please. If I got to go camping as often as I'd like, the outdoor sets probably wouldn't interest me as much as they do.

Another point is that the requirement of including a parts selection that can become three different, but thematically related, builds is limiting in its way. You'll never get something as sleek and impressive as the Modular buildings from a 3-in-1. The brick-built animals often look clunky and weird because their parts have to sub in for two different animals. Some of the vehicle ones are pretty nice (speaking as someone who's not really into vehicle builds), but they also tend to be very small.

Maybe what this all adds up to is that 3-in-1 sets don't offer anything specific that isn't done better by more focused sets, and as adults, we can pursue those other sets of our own free will.

[icm]

I'm quite fond of Creator 3-in-1, actually.  I think of it as a slightly more advanced version of City, more than as a distinct theme in its own right, but its series of minifig scaled airplanes and boats over the last few years has been outstanding.  I also appreciate the mini-scale and midi-scale cars and aircraft like those in this year's shuttle transporter.  I admit I'm not particularly interested in the brick built animals or most of the buildings, but I think they're nice sets that demonstrate the ideals of Lego very well, and I'm glad they sell consistently enough to earn a place in the product line year after year.

[x105Black]

4 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Do you feel that Creator's Three-In-One line is underappreciated to any degree by AFOLs? If so, why? 

• Is it the limited color selection for most of its sets historically?
• Is it due to its tendency towards usage of more basic, preexisting bricks and/or parts within its sets?
• Is it the Three-In-One alternate build approach its sets take?
• Is it due to its historical tendency towards usage of only preexisting minifigure prints and/or parts?
• Is it due to its historically limited coverage of other playset subject matters, themes, and genres?
• Is it simply not as exciting as other themes and offerings from Lego?
• Is it something else altogether entirely? 

• The limited color selection in each set is not a big issue, as long as the colors are appealing and desirable.
• The use of basic, preexisting bricks is not a big issue, as people will always need even the most basic parts.  That said, the builds often look blocky and a few more specialized parts could help.
• The 3-in-1 concept is fantastic, and I love that the pieces can be repurposed.  This reminds me of the old days when all set boxes had multiple builds.
• The tendency towards preexisting prints and parts can be a bit of an issue, but not a huge one.  This just means that there are more generic minifigures and pieces around.
• The limited subject matter is not a big issue, since they actually cover a lot of different subject matter.  Branching out more into Science Fiction and Medieval Fantasy could improve this, though.
• The theme can be as exciting as LEGO allow it to be.  They can even take the Juniors approach and make Creator 3-in-1 sets for existing themes, like Ninjago or Star Wars.  Most of the sets feel like they belong in the City theme.
• It is all of these things and more.

Here are the main things I would do to improve the Creator 3-in-1 theme:

• Create more Medieval Fantasy (Castle) and Science Fiction (Space) themed sets.  More such sets would make the theme more appealing to me.
• Include molded animals / creatures.  I don't like the way that the brick-built animals look in these sets.
• Add more specialized elements to eliminate the blocky, simplistic appearance of these sets.  Perhaps increase the piece counts.
• Occasionally introduce new minifigure prints or existing molds in new colors.

Overall, I have no major problems with the theme.  It just doesn't often stand out as something I'd buy, much like the City theme (with exceptions for interesting minifigures and animal molds).

I think that the Creator 3-in-1 theme could and should be improved.  The concept of the theme can be revisited.  It seems that the concept is to be very basic and cheap to produce.  Throwing a little more money at it could result in a lot more sales.  That's my thought, anyways.  And of course, these things may only serve to make the theme more appealing to me.  I'm sure LEGO's market research indicates that the theme as it exists currently is the most profitable.

[NKubate]

Creator used to be my favourite themes due to its cool rebuilding possibilities, but sadly I cannot remember the last time I really wanted to buy one of the models. I don't know exactly why, but the theme seems to have lost some of its appeal to me. I simply do not find the current models as appealing as the older Creator and Designer sets, both the main model and the alternatives from a design perspective. One thing I have noticed is that I find it harder to come up with interesting alternative models now than before because of an inventory that seems to have more big and specialized parts limiting rebuilding possibilities. The inclusion of minifigures now also dictates more the scale the models and the alternatives are designed in, which could be another limiting factor.

Of course the Creator line also has a difficult position because there are currently so many other product lines that overlap/ compete with Creator models. Considering that Creator still contains more basic bricks than other lines (except for the Creator Expert line), they look more simplistic, less realistic and might therefore also be less appealing to the majority. My feeling is that Creator has a bit of an identity crisis at the moment, not knowing exactly its roll in the overall portfolio. I think that this is the biggest problem.

[Merlict]

6 hours ago, x105Black said:

• Add more specialized elements to eliminate the blocky, simplistic appearance of these sets.  Perhaps increase the piece counts.

• Occasionally introduce new minifigure prints or existing molds in new colors.

 

Nooooooope, not for me. The lack of huge / specialized pieces is the best thing about these sets imo. So sick of all the specialized pieces in City that make every set look samey  (ie that godforsaken helicopter canopy)

As to more pieces, I think they struggle to come up with builds that use all the parts well above the 500 piece mark. Cruising Adventures for example  the C  build uses far less than half the blocks.

 

 

I quiet like the theme as is, but I'd like to see more non-City style larger sets. Especially for orphaned themes like Castle or Pirates, where you could do really fun stuff without the cost of supporting a full lineup. 

 

[danth]

14 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Do you feel that Creator's Three-In-One line is underappreciated to any degree by AFOLs? If so, why?

I really like the Creator Three-In-One series. All the airplanes, helicopters, robots, and dinosaur sets have been totally awesome IMO.  It might be underappreciated by other AFOLs who don't realize how great the sets are. But for me it's probably my favorite series due to it being a more "real Lego" experience for these reasons:

1. No licensed characters or stories; everything is up to the imagination
2. No Stickers, yay!
3. Alternate builds, just like they used to have on the back of the box
4. No large specialized parts 

 

8 hours ago, x105Black said:

1. Create more Medieval Fantasy (Castle) and Science Fiction (Space) themed sets.  More such sets would make the theme more appealing to me.

YES!!!

2 hours ago, Merlict said:

1. Nooooooope, not for me. The lack of huge / specialized pieces is the best thing about these sets imo. So sick of all the specialized pieces in City that make every set look samey  (ie that godforsaken helicopter canopy). 

Agree!

I think the best thing Lego could ever do is release a Space and Castle themed 3-in-1 Creator set each year. Guarantee they'd sell like gangbusters. 

[Agent 86]

I'm generally only interested in the residential and commercial Creator 3 in 1 sets (i.e. the animals, dinosaurs, planes, cars and other builds aren't as appealing to me).

I think some of them are absolutely awesome, for example, Model Town House Apple Tree House, Family Home, Family House, Hillside House, Bike Shop and Café, etc. I think some of them are very good, for example, Seaside / Beach House and Corner Deli. I think some are quite good, for example, Toy and Grocery Store.

I think the recent "modular" 3 in 1 builds are ... well, terrible.

Just based on the residential and commercial Creator 3 in 1 sets, they appear to have gotten a lot more simplistic and unrealistic. They're no longer fully-enclosed, instead being open-back City style, and they're just ... messy with the "pre-fabricated" wall sections. So, they've definitely lost their appeal to me.

But, the upcoming Pet Shop and Café, although featuring two businesses of which there are already an over abundance in Lego City, does seem to be getting back on track (at least from the very fuzzy pictures available to date).

[MAB]

For me, the buildings aren't modulars, so not really that interesting. Some of the minifig scale vehicles are OK if you want that particular vehicle but I tend to stick with the City ones. They are good sets for kids, as there is a lot of build value in them.

The forest animals set

was a lot of fun, as is the pooping parrot

.

 

With a bit of head and beak modification, this one

is useful for LOTR.

10 hours ago, danth said:

 

1. No licensed characters or stories; everything is up to the imagination

I think the best thing Lego could ever do is release a Space and Castle themed 3-in-1 Creator set each year. Guarantee they'd sell like gangbusters. 

 

If they did a (classic) space 3-in-1, then even though it is not licensed, it is somewhat dictating the builds you can do with the set. But then, that is already fairly common across the range anyway. For example, if a kid has this set:

it would not surprise me if they made the three sea creature builds and not much else and possibly play with the fish swimming them around. Is that any better / worse than a kid having a Star Wars set and using their imagination to act out a storyline? For the creator set, there is more build experience but I think less play and display possibility, whereas for a 1-build licensed set, there is less build experience but more play and display value. So I guess it depends what you want out of a set.

[vermontcathy]

I love the Creator 3 in 1 sets. I don't tend to just leave a set together forever - I like taking them apart, rebuilding, and I love alt builds (both the ones from Lego, and ones available at rebrickable.com or on YouTube). I sometimes make my own alt builds as well. My favorite creator sets are:

• 31079: Sunshine Surfer Van - the number of alt builds available for this is unreal
• 31063: Beachside Vacation, 31035: Beach Hut, and 7346: Seaside House (yeah, there's a theme here)
• 31051: Lighthouse Point (my favorite)
• 31025: Mountain Hut
• 31048: Lakeside Lodge - last year when I wasn't impressed with the Christmas Winter Village set, I made this set into a winter scene:

 

[TeriXeri]

It's my favorite current running theme. Especially the minifig scale sets.

The only thing I don't like are some microscale sets for their builds however they still can contain good parts.

3-in-1 style of sets/figures combine well with the "fun in the xxx" figures, and shop@home sets like pencil pots/picture frame/lego store etc, Xtra also adds to the theme well.

 

Of course the Expert line will look better, but also is at a much higher price class (even while it's at a lower price per part), however I hardly see the 40%+ discounts on those sets compared to 3-in-1.

Edited April 8, 2019 by TeriXeri

[koalayummies]

The Creator Expert 3 in 1 is one of the coolest lines. However I haven't gotten a whole lot of them and it has to do with a couple of your reasons.

The use of existing prints, color selection and basic/relatively common pieces are the biggest deterring factor as an MOCer who frequently selects sets based off price per piece and versatility/abundance or rarity (to me) of the included pieces.

But the content of the sets is usually fantastic, the builds always look fun and the fact that they can be made into 3 equally interesting builds is something remarkable. Even if I don't get many Creator 3 in 1s they are always something I inspect and wish I could build all of them.

[Aanchir]

I would say that it's appreciated by AFOLs, but doesn't necessarily leave quite as much room for community involvement as themes based on a more particular premise or category of subject matter.

For example, with many of those other themes, a lot of the community is built up around the idea of building MOCs within that universe or category: Space MOCs, Bionicle MOCs, Castle MOCs, Technic MOCs, etc. But aside from alternate models or combination models of Creator 3-in-1 sets, there's not really many MOCs or layouts people build that could be described as "Creator 3-in-1 MOCs", because unless you're building something specifically for other people to try and recreate themselves, there's rarely much point in designing three different conceptually-related models to use the same pieces.

Also, as much as some of the fans of the classic themes might scoff at heavily story-driven themes like Ninjago or Bionicle, a lot of community discussions do depend on some kind of agreed-upon sense of what a particular theme is about or who the different players are within that theme — for instance, most Space fans understand that certain color schemes and logos represent Blacktron, an organization of shady criminals opposed by the Space Police. Most Castle fans likewise understand the hierarchy of a typical medieval factions, with royalty at the top, knights in the middle, soldiers a bit further down, and peasants/serfs at the bottom. And Pirates fans, of course, tend to be in decisive agreement on the contentious order vs. chaos relationship between the pirate and soldier factions. Even in Creator Expert, fans also share an understanding that each of its minifig-scale subthemes represents a particular local area, whether it's a city, a quaint village, or a fairground.

A lot of this sense of commonality guides people's MOCing as well as their wishes for future sets. But with Creator 3-in-1, there IS no shared world or story framework that can guide fans in this manner. And the sets represent not only depict wildly varied genres and interest categories, but also are even at wildly varied scales — meaning the Creator 3-in-1 fanbase is on some levels a microcosm of the heavily fragmented state of the LEGO fan community as a whole. From my experience at LEGO fan conventions, it's not uncommon to see Bionicle builders, Space builders, Castle builders, military builders, Star Wars builders, and town/train builders hang out largely as separate social "cliques" depending on what their preferences in LEGO sets, MOCs, and building styles happen to be.

I think it's safe to say that plenty of AFOLs enjoy Creator 3-in-1… but usually with specific focus on whatever type of subject matter they're most drawn to collecting or building outside the constraints of that theme. Fans of the modular buildings, Friends, or City tend to like the 3-in-1 houses and shops, while fans of action figure themes like Bionicle might prefer the many articulated robot and creature sets, and fans of Model Team or the Creator Expert Classic Cars might enjoy some of the 3-in-1 theme's larger-scale vehicle sets. It's doubtful that too many of these AFOLs would describe Creator 3-in-1 as their favorite theme, though, because for every set from the theme that appeals to them, there might be several that they're entirely disinterested in (except possibly as parts packs).

23 hours ago, x105Black said:

Here are the main things I would do to improve the Creator 3-in-1 theme:

• Create more Medieval Fantasy (Castle) and Science Fiction (Space) themed sets.  More such sets would make the theme more appealing to me.
• Include molded animals / creatures.  I don't like the way that the brick-built animals look in these sets.
• Add more specialized elements to eliminate the blocky, simplistic appearance of these sets.  Perhaps increase the piece counts.
• Occasionally introduce new minifigure prints or existing molds in new colors.

Overall, I have no major problems with the theme.  It just doesn't often stand out as something I'd buy, much like the City theme (with exceptions for interesting minifigures and animal molds).

To be honest, it sounds like your second and third wishes would be better served by putting 3-in-1 set designs in the themes you're describing like Castle and Space than putting Castle and Space sets in the Creator 3-in-1 theme.

3-in-1 sets already DO sometimes include smaller molded creatures like fish, crabs, and spiders — usually because these creatures are too small to be recognizable if built from standard bricks at minifig scale, and are about as cheap to manufacture as a similar-sized, single-color brick. But molded creatures larger than a minifigure (like horses, sharks, crocodiles, dragons, or dinosaurs) would eat up a much more substantial portion of a set's budget, taking the place of more versatile parts that could be reused in different ways in the alternate builds.

That goes against a lot the 3-in-1 theme's design philosophy and the source of its current appeal, considering that it's one of just a few themes where rebuildable animal models made largely of standard LEGO elements are the norm rather than the exception. Even the Minecraft theme typically usually uses specialized head pieces to define its creatures' appearance, but in Creator 3-in-1 you'll rarely see any pieces more tailored to one particular use than a printed tile for their eyes.

The playability factor is also probably one of the things that would keep the designers from implementing bigger brick-built animals — no matter how blocky the animals in these sets might look, they often feature considerably more points of articulation than similar-sized molded animals:

• Compare the T. Rex in https://brickset.com/sets/31058-1/Mighty-Dinosaurs (16 points of articulation) or the dragon in https://brickset.com/sets/31073-1/Mythical-Creatures (19 points of articulation) with a typical Jurassic World T. Rex (7 points of articulation) or Castle dragon (12 points of articulation)
• Compare the moose in https://brickset.com/sets/31048-1/Lakeside-Lodge (4 points of articulation), the bear in https://brickset.com/sets/31052-1/Vacation-Getaways (8 points of articulation),  or the crocodile in https://brickset.com/sets/31093-1/Riverside-Houseboat (7 points of articulation) with a typical Castle horse, City bear, or Pirates crocodile (2 points of articulation each).
• Compare the ray in https://brickset.com/sets/31090-1/Underwater-Robot (4 points of articulation), the dog in https://brickset.com/sets/31075-1/Outback-Adventures (6 points of articulation) with a molded LEGO Aquazone ray or City dog (no articulation).

Same can be said for many types of more specialized element, assuming you define those as parts MORE specialized than stuff that already shows up frequently in Creator 3-in-1 like wheels/tires, windows/doors, propellers, and plants. I remember quite a few complaints when https://brickset.com/sets/31025-1/Mountain-Hut included two 3x8x7 mountain bricks, even though as with so many sets with such parts, they were put to use not only as a cliff face (which can just as easily be created with more basic bricks and slopes) but also a playable cave interior (which is a lot trickier to do with more solidly built brick walls except at a far larger scale).

Realistically, a Castle wall/window panel, Castle wagon wheel, Space rover wheel, or could just as easily show up in a 3-in-1 set as similar-sized windows and wheels from more modern-day settings. After all, https://brickset.com/sets/31094-1/Race-Plane from this year uses one of the big 7x7 siege engine wheels from Fantasy Era, and it isn't even a medieval model, so it's not far fetched to think an actual medieval set could justify the use of such parts where appropriate!

But I doubt we'd be very likely to see a Creator 3-in-1 set using parts like prefab rowboats, 4x8x2 parapets, or 8x8x2 plane fuselage segments. Frankly, even designers of the classic themes have not relied nearly as extensively on those types of theme-specific parts in the past decade as they used to — for example, the forts from the 2015 Pirates sets largely shied away from prefab wall panels, and likewise the 2013 Castle range stopped relying on prefab parapets, despite both having been staples of those themes in the past, and both those molds remaining in use in other sets and themes up through this year or last!

It's probably safe to assume that the 3-in-1 designers will generally continue to opt for less specialized brick-built solutions so long as they can function adequately in the finished model, whether or not they'd streamline the appearance or simplify the build. Even setting aside any sort of lofty ideals on their part, you have to remember that it's a lot of work to design three models per set that offer extremely varied building experiences, use most of the set's pieces, AND meet all the LEGO Group's stability and quality standards (the back of box "inspiration models" designed from the parts many older sets were rarely held to such high standards). So using a big or specialized piece where a more versatile one might be easier for them to find new uses for in the B and C models would be kind of like the designers shooting themselves in the foot!

3-in-1 has increasingly been fulfilling the third of your wishes, though (more new prints and recolors). We can probably expect that, at least, to steadily continue. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the sets increasingly dabbling in sci-fi and medieval fantasy subjects beyond the sci-fi robots and fantasy monsters we've been seeing for years now. I know it will be controversial, though, considering how upset fans of a particular 3-in-1 category get when they feel like new categories of sets like fairground models, dollhouse-style modular buildings, minifig-scale vehicles, etc. are displacing the categories they've come to love and expect each year, like fold-open or otherwise fully enclosed houses/shops and large-scale or microscale vehicles.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Aanchir

[danth]

40 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

To be honest, it sounds like your second and third wishes would be better served by putting 3-in-1 set designs in the themes you're describing like Castle and Space than putting Castle and Space sets in the Creator 3-in-1 theme.

What Castle and Space themes? 

[TeriXeri]

1 hour ago, danth said:

What Castle and Space themes? 

Harry Potter, TLM2, 2019 summer City 

No, but really, I do hope some actual Space/Castle/Pirate line of sets.

While Pirate elements have been present in some 3-in-1 in 2018 they weren't full pirate sets, even tho the style of the buildings on the Pirate Rollercaster and Treehouse (skull alternate build), clearly were inspired by the past.

Of course putting elements in via the 3-in-1 line is throwing us a cookie, but no full replacement, but they also put some pirate/castle/space elements in the 60th anniversary set, LEGO knows there's a demand, I just think 2019 wasn't the right time yet for a full new in-house theme. 

Xtra sea accesoires being partly Pirate-y also might be a hint toward possibly a Space or Castle accesoires, no idea.

I think TLM2 benny squad was a very nice gesture already on the Space theme at least.

Hidden Side likely was in the pipeline already before or right after Nexo Knight's "early" ending.

Also not to forget Ninjago has covered the Dragon side of things regularly even recently, and I don't expect much less Star Wars at least until after Ep.9 

I would love to see a in-house theme as much as others, especially on the Castle side of things. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by TeriXeri

[x105Black]

19 hours ago, Merlict said:

Nooooooope, not for me. The lack of huge / specialized pieces is the best thing about these sets imo. So sick of all the specialized pieces in City that make every set look samey  (ie that godforsaken helicopter canopy)

I wasn't really talking about huge pieces.  Just smaller more specialized parts that aren't just bricks or plates, that's all.

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

To be honest, it sounds like your second and third wishes would be better served by putting 3-in-1 set designs in the themes you're describing like Castle and Space than putting Castle and Space sets in the Creator 3-in-1 theme.

3-in-1 sets already DO sometimes include smaller molded creatures like fish, crabs, and spiders — usually because these creatures are too small to be recognizable if built from standard bricks at minifig scale, and are about as cheap to manufacture as a similar-sized, single-color brick. But molded creatures larger than a minifigure (like horses, sharks, crocodiles, dragons, or dinosaurs) would eat up a much more substantial portion of a set's budget, taking the place of more versatile parts that could be reused in different ways in the alternate builds.

That goes against a lot the 3-in-1 theme's design philosophy and the source of its current appeal, considering that it's one of just a few themes where rebuildable animal models made largely of standard LEGO elements are the norm rather than the exception. Even the Minecraft theme typically usually uses specialized head pieces to define its creatures' appearance, but in Creator 3-in-1 you'll rarely see any pieces more tailored to one particular use than a printed tile for their eyes.

Honestly, this is the only part of your tl;dr post I read.  And yes, they do use tiny creature molds.  But why not use cat and dog molds?  Instead there are awful brick-built cats and dogs that barely resemble the actual animal at minifigure scale.  That's the main issue for me.  But larger animal molds like bears or big cats could also work well in this theme.  I don't get the resistance to it.  While it may be a little bit against the theme's design philosophy, I think that philosophy could be rewritten.  And if not, then I guess my biggest gripe with the theme is that design philosophy.

Here's an example of a terrible dog:

40 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

Also not to forget Ninjago has covered the Dragon side of things regularly even recently, and I don't expect much less Star Wars at least until after Ep.9 

I just don't like brick-built dragons.  3-in-1 had this dragon:



But I vastly prefer this one:

Edited April 8, 2019 by x105Black
Added example of terrible dog.

[Aanchir]

3 hours ago, danth said:

What Castle and Space themes? 

Whichever ones we get next, obviously. It's naive to think that these themes being on hiatus for a little while means that they're never coming back, particularly in Castle's case since a designer on this very forum literally told us that traditional Castle was merely on hiatus and would be coming back.And even if you do believe that there is some reason LEGO can't or won't return to making these themes in a form you can accept, I can't fathom why releasing the exact same type of product and figure designs but with different branding would be a viable loophole — particularly when Castle and Space themes often don't use "LEGO Space" or "LEGO Castle" logos or branding in the first place. Do you think any of LEGO's licensing partners are out there writing non-compete clauses that can be subverted with that little effort?

Edited April 8, 2019 by Aanchir

[TeriXeri]

55 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Here's an example of a terrible dog:

I just don't like brick-built dragons.  3-in-1 had this dragon:
But I vastly prefer this one:
 

Of course that moulded dragon looks a lot cleaner and nicer, but I don't really expect highly specialized animals in 3-in-1 sets, where alternate builds are key, (they even have a 4-in-1 for the 2019 sea creatures, sperm whale bonus build)

I do think some of those arch-brick dogs are pretty bad, maybe it was just added as something leftover to match a certain piece/weight criteria.

The 2018 dog outback set at least had 4 moveable legs , but other then that the City dogs/cats could be nice to see in a 3-in-1 Creator set.

We had some non-existent animals in brick form as well, like a Moose, or Pelican in minifig-scale sets.

I would love to see more seagulls in Xtra or smaller City sets. But at least the blue/yellow parrots are more easily available now outside of Modulars.

The 2019 crocodile build is just a bit large compared to the City Jungle crocs that already exist but the parts are used in the alternate builds.

Edited April 8, 2019 by TeriXeri

[x105Black]

9 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

Of course that moulded dragon looks a lot cleaner and nicer, but I don't really expect highly specialized animals in 3-in-1 sets, where alternate builds are key, (they even have a 4-in-1 for the 2019 sea creatures, sperm whale bonus build)

I do think some of those arch-brick dogs are pretty bad, maybe it was just added as something leftover to match a certain piece/weight criteria.

The 2018 dog outback set at least had 4 moveable legs , but other then that the City dogs/cats could be nice to see in a 3-in-1 Creator set.

We had some non-existent animals in brick form as well, like a Moose, or Pelican in minifig-scale sets.

I would love to see seagulls in Xtra sets, as they put the blue/yellow parrot in one as well.

The 2019 crocodile build is just a bit large compared to the City Jungle crocs that already exist but the parts are used in the alternate builds.

I certainly don't expect to see a molded dragon in a 3-in-1 set.  I was simply pointing out that my needs are not served with brick-built dragons like those in Ninjago (which is what I was replying to).

The dogs and cats are the real issues for 3-in-1, but a molded moose or pelican would have been a great selling point for those sets.

[Aanchir]

@x105Black The dragon comparison is what I figured you were thinking of, and exactly the kind of way that 3-in-1 sets COULDN’T become what you want without losing what makes the sets appealing to many of the people who already enjoy them.

Obviously, you understand that Creator 3-in-1 and Creator Expert sets (like Classic or Technic sets) are defined by their building experience, not by their subject matter. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be pitching sets depicting subject matter so far from anything the theme’s depicted before. Plus, there'd be no point in the theme even including so many modern-day buildings and vehicles in the Creator 3-in-1 theme if their design language and philosophy didn't provide them with some type of appeal that differed from their equivalents in "play themes" like City or Friends.

As such, sets like that dragon or this year’s shark are designed for kids who want the experience of building three different creatures using a shared inventory of standard LEGO parts. They are also positioned at fairly low price points despite the creatures themselves making up most of the set. The LEGO Castle dragon, on the other hand, is designed to be a figure/accessory that accompanied a bigger castle. As such it is designed for play, with little to no value as a stand-alone building experience. Without the wings, horns, or flame, it would have even less of a building experience than many Galidor sets.

Unsurprisingly, big molded animals like dragons or dinosaurs take a huge bite out of the budget for sets that contain them (even larger ones). Dragon Mountain from 2013 was largely panned by Castle fans right here on Eurobricks because at $50 for 376 pieces, it was perceived as overpriced and mediocre. But that can pretty safely be attributed to having huge specialized dragon molds that might easily account for at least $10 of the set’s off the shelf cost despite making up less than 1/10 of the piece count. After all, the price per piece of the Skeleton Tower set from Fantasy Era at the same sticker price was only slightly better, while the value of the Troll Warship set at a $70 sticker price was even worse, since it has huge boat hulls to consider as well. Also, take note: those $50 prices for Skeleton Tower (released 12 years ago) and Dragon Mountain (released 6 years ago) are closer to $60 and $55 in today's money.

Having said all that, consider: the price range of Creator 3-in-1 sets usually skews EVEN LOWER than that if Castle sets. That means you’re not likely to get sets as big as King’s Castle Siege or The Lonely Mountain which contain enough small or inexpensive elements and a high enough price point to offset the ludicrous cost of including a huge molded dragon. This year’s Creator 3-in-1 sets include a $10 set, a $13 set, two $15 sets, two $25 sets, a $30 set a $40 set. Rumors I’ve seen for the summer sets suggest two $50 sets and an $80 set… the last of which is a higher than all but six Creator 3-in-1 sets in the theme’s entire history.

So unless a set featuring a big molded animal took the place of one of the large-scale vehicles, minifig-scale houses/shops, and now fairground rides that are typically in contention for most of the $40-and-up price points, I don’t see where there’d be any possibility for a set to include a molded dragon unless it somehow was able to craft three high-quality, minifig-scale models on a budget smaller than Dragon Mountain and the Skeleton Tower had for ONE. Certainly it wouldn't be able to deliver any meaningful building value whatsoever at the $15 price point the two previous Creator 3-in-1 dragons were sold for… at that point, you'd be lucky to have enough of a budget left over for a polybag-sized 3-in-1 build.

As for the dog? Yeah, it looks extremely silly, although I would say the humor inherent to such a dopey, wall-eyed look is a big part of its charm. More importantly, though, even with such a low piece count, it is made of pieces that can be reused for entirely different things in the alternate builds. In the B-model (the Lakeside Home), the arch that forms its body supports the kitchen sink, and its nose and collar become the burners on the stove (one running, one turned off). In the C-model, its eyes and head become the eyes and head of a lawn gnome, its collar becomes the foot of a bird, and its tail becomes one of the supports for the see-saw.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these alternate uses for the parts (particularly the gnome) were in fact a major reason the dog is built the silly-looking way that it is. By comparison, a City style molded dog would add not only add no value to the building experience, but it would add so little play value that there'd be little to justify including a dog in the first place!

And yeah, I understand that you would like Creator 3-in-1 to be able to carry your interest in Castle building through periods when that theme is on hiatus. To be honest, I would love if there were more sets in any theme with parts and building or play styles that appealed to as a LEGO Bionicle fan, so I get that the struggle is real. But I think hoping for a popular, wel-established theme you don't normally have much interest in to change its course so that it can take the place of a theme you prefer is kind of misplacing one's priorities… much like how I wouldn't expect LEGO Xtra to introduce Bionicle mask packs or LEGO Harry Potter to introduce Bionicle-style buildable characters and creatures.

As long as you're hoping for a return of a type of sets you must enjoy, you might as well hope for it in a form that more closely suits the characteristics you already loved about it, not as a radical re-imagining of a much different theme that's already running. After all, in a lot of ways this is all hypothetical anyway, so there's no need to compromise your vision of future Castle or Space sets to shoehorn them into another much different theme.

And even if LEGO employees are reading this thread and taking notes, I get the feeling that relaunching Castle or Space as their own themes (as they've done so, so many times in the past) would be a much easier and more desirable option for them to pursue than redefining an existing theme so it can meet the expectations people have for two very different themes that are popular for two very different reasons.

[x105Black]

9 hours ago, Aanchir said:

[so many words]

To get the point straight, I don't expect a Creator 3-in-1 set to include a molded dragon.  I brought that up in relation to someone else saying Ninjago is providing us with great dragons.  Ninjago has brick-built dragons, so I was doing a comparison of brick-built dragons and molded dragons in a similar scale and color scheme.  That's all that was.

Furthermore, It's great that the parts of the dog are reused in the additional models.  I don't see how adding a small animal like a dog mold is really going to upset the status quo, though.  Build and play are both great, and a dog can add a lot more play value than you may attribute to it.

I'm not trying to change Creator 3-in-1 to fit my desire for Castle and Space sets.  I'm just suggesting that they take on that subject matter from time to time.  I'm also suggesting that they include some smaller more specialized molds to enhance their play experience.  That's all.

[danth]

23 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Whichever ones we get next, obviously.

That's gonna be a no from me, dawg. That means something licensed or violence oriented. Creator sets are about the build, and don't require a narrative or action gimmicks, so I'll stick with Space & Castle in Creator rather than vice versa.

23 hours ago, Aanchir said:

It's naive to think that these themes being on hiatus for a little while means that they're never coming back, particularly in Castle's case since a designer on this very forum literally told us that traditional Castle was merely on hiatus and would be coming back.

I'd rather not wait until Star Wars/Harry Potter movies are out of theaters.

23 hours ago, Aanchir said:

And even if you do believe that there is some reason LEGO can't or won't return to making these themes in a form you can accept, I can't fathom why releasing the exact same type of product and figure designs but with different branding would be a viable loophole — particularly when Castle and Space themes often don't use "LEGO Space" or "LEGO Castle" logos or branding in the first place. Do you think any of LEGO's licensing partners are out there writing non-compete clauses that can be subverted with that little effort?

That is a good point. I'm not sure Lego could get away with it. Maybe a single Space & Castle Creator set a year could somehow wriggle through some exception. 

 

[Aanchir]

4 hours ago, danth said:

That's gonna be a no from me, dawg. That means something licensed or violence oriented. Creator sets are about the build, and don't require a narrative or action gimmicks, so I'll stick with Space & Castle in Creator rather than vice versa.

You realize the only reason most Creator sets are non-violent is that they're roughly based on realistic, modern day subjects — the very thing you want them to branch out from? After all, that's the characteristic shared by most of LEGO's least violent themes, whether they're current ones like City, Friends, and Speed Champions or past ones like Sports, Jack Stone, or  LEGO Island Xtreme Stunts.

In fact, many of the Creator theme's futuristic, fantastical, or historical based sets have been just as "violent" as their equivalents in themes like Castle, Space, Bionicle, or Ninjago:

• The Power Mech's description encourages kids to "Suit up for futuristic battle with strong green armor, powerful arms, grabbing claws and leg-mounted boosters".
• The Rescue Robot's description encourages kids to "Blast the enemy with the laserbot’s arm-mounted laser beam!"
• Mighty Dinosaurs "Also includes the dinosaur’s prey in the form of a buildable rib cage".
• One of Fiery Legend's alternate builds is "a powerful ogre warrior with a massive hammer and shield!"
• The alternate builds of Mythical Creatures (2018) include a "menacing troll with an axe that doubles as a heavy metal guitar", while those of Mythical Creatures (2006) include a troll and a lizard creature, each armed with both a hammer and a flail
• Several of the robots from sets like Robo Platoon, Robo Pod, Robobots, Mini Robots, and Titan XP are about as heavily armed as any Exo-Force, Ninjago, or Nexo Knights robot/mech!

And anyhow, if designers were willing to put guns, axes, flails, crossbows, catapults, swords, and enemy factions in the Pirates and C astle subthemes of Duplo, then it seems kind of unlikely that they'd make some unprecedented effort to keep Castle or Space inspired Creator sets free of any violent weapons or conflict scenarios. After all, they've been putting that type of stuff in Castle, Space, and Pirates sets for a good three decades at this point. It's safe to assume that they've found kids respond well to it, and aren't just embroiled in some nefarious scheme to "trick" kids into enjoying conflict-driven forms of play and storytelling that they'd ordinarily have no interest in.

4 hours ago, danth said:

I'd rather not wait until Star Wars/Harry Potter movies are out of theaters.

I see no reason at all to assume Harry Potter/Fantastic Beasts will get in the way of new Castle sets, considering that every new incarnation of LEGO Castle since 2001 has launched the very same year as new Wizarding World or Middle-Earth movies and licensed sets.

Star Wars is perhaps a different issue, but even in that case I feel there's plenty of reason to think that the hiatus since the last in-house Space theme is not due to any rigid licensing clause, but rather LEGO not wanting to self-sabotage their new product lines by making them too similar to the unstoppable marketing juggernaut that is LEGO Star Wars. Even since 2015, there have been all kinds of non-Disney-branded sets involving futuristic space travel, spaceships, aliens, and astronauts:

• The Voltron set from LEGO Ideas
• Numerous LEGO Movie 2 and DC Super Heroes sets
• A spaceship and launch platform in the Overwatch sets.
• The Rocket Boy, Retro Spaceman, Galaxy Trooper, and Alien Trooper blind-bag figures.
• The Alien, Space Shuttle, and UFO monthly mini model builds from LEGO Brand Retail.
• The Creator Robo Explorer set and the Futuristic Spaceship alternate build of Futuristic Flyer

I simply can't fathom any kind of licensing clause that would allow LEGO to release so many different space-related products, and yet somehow still have any power to categorically exclude a line of space-related toys no matter what their designs or premise happened to be like.

And before anybody gets antsy, I'm not saying that anyone has to like any of these "Space-adjacent" sets or consider them equivalent to your preferred visions of "LEGO Space"… But LEGO has shown time and time again that AFOL preferences don't have much impact at all in how they design their main kid-targeted product lines, even many of their previous Space themes. Regardless of the circumstances, I think there's a strong possibility that no matter what shape the next Space theme takes, there will be some of us who don't consider them real "LEGO Space" themes, same as there have been for every Space theme since the 90s if not earlier!

This year in particular, I would say The LEGO Movie 2 is probably a bigger obstacle to a new Space theme launch (or any number of other potential new product lines) than LEGO Star Wars. But by next year, with that theme presumably moving into its final wave, there's no telling what new themes LEGO might be cooking up…

Edited April 10, 2019 by Aanchir