2019 LEGO Trains - 70424

[BrickMusher]

1 hour ago, Daedalus304 said:

When people at train shows ask me how to get started, ...

Exactly this. I see that moving things on a display always catches most attention of visitors.

So when ever I had a display with old Monorail, and people asked about it, it was exactly like you have said. To tell them that they have to spend a redicioulus amount of money for hard-to-find parts that are out of production for more than 20 years just creates me a pain.

Same with 9V System

 

So, IF TLG will produce this new wheelsets only, and use it on PU trains in the future, everybody should complain at TLG´s customer service about bad performance due to high friction. And everybody should insist on replacement parts. I fear a little that TLG is some kind of advice resistant, therefore warranty requests seem to be the most approbiate way to "teach" them to do better IMHO.

[zephyr1934]

7 hours ago, Toastie said:

Oh my.

Who ever came up with that kind of wheel set (it is not a "set" it is one wheel - and two of these is not a set. It remains two), must be into cars. I cannot imagine anything else. Discarding the axle on a >not< plain surface is insane. A car with individual suspension and this and that (visit the Technic Forum ... they do magic in this regard) is perfectly matching this kind of wheel attachment. But a train running on clearly defined track geometries: Go away. Regardless of how many ball bearings you use: Their >mounting< will define performance. And surely increase friction. As they do in the video. It is not the bearing, it is the angle.

It is always instructive to look at what the world does. Do the use axles on trains? Yes. Is there a train that does not run on axle connected wheels? I believe not, but it may be. I'd call that crazy due to the clearly defined track width not allowing much tolerance, if at all.

So - TLG is either above friction rules - or they have no clue - or they don't care. Nifty pick ups or not. As far as I am concerned, this is crazy.

Best
Thorsten

I think there might be a few low floor LRV's that have wheels without through axles, but very uncommon and almost certainly with compensation.

The real problem is that they are abandoning the simple physics of train wheels, for which the axle is central. It is not about friction, it is about self centering of the coupled beveled wheels... and from the following photo, it looks like they may have done away with the bevel.

 

On 8/5/2019 at 8:01 AM, technic70s said:

 

I'm sure it was done as a cost savings measure. Plastic parts are REALLY cheap for Lego, the axles were probably from a third party supplier and thus, in relative terms, really expensive (e.g., recall their price on S@H, and I'm sure they get them for much cheaper than BrickTrainDepot), and then they had to be boxed to make them compatible with the machinable packing. In any event, Lego at least used to have about 3 years from concept to market, so these have probably been in the works for some time.

[Tcm0]

2 hours ago, Daedalus304 said:

Toy or not, switching to something with massively worse objective performance feels like a real undercut to that whole "Only the best is good enough" motto that used to drive their quality.

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there's some safety issue or something this is meant to address, but...

Between the gutting of the versatility that came with the switch to Powered Up from PF and this, it's mostly seeming like LEGO has just decided to become incredibly out of touch with the AFOL scene. I say 'decided' because given how much work used to go into it, with reaching out to the AFOL community for workshops etc, they clearly made a decision to do things without that part of the old process. 

That is, of course, their own perogative - but it does put us in an odd spot, doesn't it? When people at train shows ask me how to get started, now I not only have to tell them to look for the old electronic system, I also have to tell them the wheelsets in the base sets are garbage too, hm? That's going to be a real tough sell. I'm not going to recommend to anybody something I don't *want* to buy. 

I really hope that they only use them for trains that are not ment to be motorized.

[Roadmonkeytj]

2 hours ago, Daedalus304 said:

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume there's some safety issue or something this is meant to address, but

its been mentioned that its made of two different types of plastic. .  I can only wonder if one of those is Derlin as its self lubricating and holds up to abrassive wear.

Also it seems that the axle is supported on each side of the wheel now but it seems as if a solid axle could be fitted somehow

For those unfamiliar with Derlin:

DuPont™ Delrin^® internally lubricated, wear-resistant acetal resins are used to help solve wear, friction or noise problems. They are used in conveyors across a range of industries, from food processing to semi-conductor manufacturing. Delrin^® low friction grades allow for a longer lifetime of chains and wear strips, smooth sliding of goods, quieter motion and lubrication-free operations

 

40 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

The real problem is that they are abandoning the simple physics of train wheels, for which the axle is central. It is not about friction, it is about self centering of the coupled beveled wheels... and from the following photo, it looks like they may have done away with the bevel

Perhaps this is on purpose ... With the rerailer its obvious this is designed to be played with off the tracks ... Independent wheels would allow it to turn better in tight circles such as on a desk or floor.

[dtomsen]

And as espected the first comparison doesn’t show the new wheels in a positive light.

Shame on you LEGO 

 

 

[TeriXeri]

I can somewhat understand LEGO getting rid of metal parts.

First we had metal axle wheels, and even metal and wooden crane parts, way back in the day, eventually replaced by multiple methods of plastic on plastic, small pins, technic pins etc.

Then 9v Rails weren't made anymore and replaced by remote control trains.

Now LEGO trains are app controlled as well, so that's another part LEGO doesn't make anymore.

Question is, what will happen to magnets in the near future as well.

I can understand upsides and downsides of things, but I guess it's an advantage of LEGO to not have to use as many metal parts anymore.

But overall it's too early to judge from 1 set so far.

Personally, if they happen to stick with those wheels, I'd hope at least to see more frequent and more smaller train sets/expansions.

Edited August 11, 2019 by TeriXeri

[technic70s]

19 hours ago, dtomsen said:

And as espected the first comparison doesn’t show the new wheels in a positive light.

Shame on you LEGO 

 

 

There you go, proof - the new plastic on plastic wheels are a dud. 

Dud -

noun

1. 1.

   a thing that fails to work properly or is otherwise unsatisfactory or worthless.

   "all three bombs were duds"

adjective

1. 1.

   not working or meeting standards; faulty.

[*thomas*]

It's an ulgy set IMHO, for train-fans at least. It has no appeal what so ever. If I wanted train parts, I'd just buy one of the city trains.

And ofc, the new wheels are a cheap joke.

[monai]

On 8/11/2019 at 8:37 AM, zephyr1934 said:

I'm sure it was done as a cost savings measure. Plastic parts are REALLY cheap for Lego, the axles were probably from a third party supplier and thus, in relative terms, really expensive (e.g., recall their price on S@H, and I'm sure they get them for much cheaper than BrickTrainDepot), and then they had to be boxed to make them compatible with the machinable packing. In any event, Lego at least used to have about 3 years from concept to market, so these have probably been in the works for some time.

"only the best is enough" but for who? I think for their wallets.. It is obvious that making these wheels is cheaper for LEGO, period. Said that there is another question that is intriguing, since the geometry of Lego train wheels have always been far distant from a real railway one, may this independence in rotation help in the Lego tight curves? is it possible to make the same test but in a curve?

Edited August 12, 2019 by monai

[Daedalus304]

34 minutes ago, monai said:

"only the best is enough" but for who? I think for their wallets.. It is obvious that making these wheels is cheaper for LEGO, period. Said that there is another question that is intriguing, since the geometry of Lego train wheels have always been far distant from a real railway one, may this independence in rotation help in the Lego tight curves? is it possible to make the same test but in a curve?

I think any efficiency advantage a split axle may bring are going to be more than eaten up by the massive increase in friction, unfortunately. 

[BrickMusher]

As allready linked by zephyr1934, there ist no advantage on split-axles.

My Brother did a test for me, since I dont want to spent money on the Hidden Side Train. He compared four-axeled coaches equipped with old wheels sets, new wheelset and ballbearing wheelsets.

of course, ballbearings performed best, but new all-plastic wheelsets did not even run half the way the old wheelsets did.

It becomes more worse in curves. He also said the cars with the split-axles where shacking and vibrating recognizable. In curves, his PU train with new wheelsets lost remarkable speed.

 

All in all no good news  

So they change motto to "only the ceapest is good enough?" 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by BrickMusher
typo

[monai]

I know what is called train's physics, but let me say that LEGO trains, since the beginning, are by far not following the most elementary physics of motion on rails.. their first wheel had teeth, the first motor ones were even inverse conic, not to mention the disproportionate flanges, what I wondered was if this independence could help in tight curves, since you say it isn't this means a stronger SHAME on Lego!.. from an AFOL point of view, children could think differently and THEY are the first target for them..:-)

S.

Edited August 12, 2019 by monai

[Laura Beinbrech]

What bugs me about the whole design of the new train wheels is this:  Why use this clunky, high-drag design when they could have made a bigger version of the Roller Coaster car body wheels (BL part #24869): in other words, a single molded piece consisting of both wheels & the axle that clips into the housing with the outer points being the bearing surface... You know, just like every model train maker for the past at least 40 years does?  You'd think it would not only perform better, but be cheaper to mold as well...

[Giottist]

Couldn't resist: Smyth toys (former toys'R'us) offers the Hidden side train 30% of and I picked up one to use it as a nice heap of useful parts, i.e. the ramp 53834

Other useful parts are the panels, the slopes, the train front and doors, the chassis 6*24, the handrails and the magnet coupler (ok ok, I have more than 90 pieces of them) and last but not least a lot of parts in dark red, a very useful colour for rolling stock. Even the two bright lime wings are useful to complete the basilisk figure from an old Harry Potter set ...

Just tested the new wheels with the really heavy hopper car from set 60098: Same as in the short YT clip, but not as worse. The new axle stops any motion at 2/3 of the distance the old metal axle runs. It seem the new wheels are made of polyethylene and not of ABS, they are more elastic. Since I have now eight axles I like to make experiments with proper lubrication ... A candidate is lithium grease which is water and dust resistant.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Giottist

[Paperballpark]

I suspect that Lego have done this to solve the problem of not being able to connect a long plate under the wheel set. There's a few times in the past (when I was building trains) that I wished I could attach a plate underneath, and it's possible they decided that doing so would make a stronger connection.

Otherwise, why not just make a single wheelset with plastic axle attached?

[dr_spock]

Perhaps they could have other uses for those wheels in different wheel mounts and configurations in the future like single rail like for a harbor crane. 

We'll be doing this in the future before each train show run.  It'll be more prototypical than those modelrailroaders at the same train show. 

 

[Roadmonkeytj]

4 hours ago, dr_spock said:

Perhaps they could have other uses for those wheels in different wheel mounts and configurations in the future like single rail like for a harbor crane. 

We'll be doing this in the future before each train show run.  It'll be more prototypical than those modelrailroaders at the same train show. 

 

Hahaha but what does a lego hot box look and sound like is the question?

[zephyr1934]

20 hours ago, BrickMusher said:

As allready linked by zephyr1934, there ist no advantage on split-axles.

My Brother did a test for me, since I dont want to spent money on the Hidden Side Train. He compared four-axeled coaches equipped with old wheels sets, new wheelset and ballbearing wheelsets.

of course, ballbearings performed best, but new all-plastic wheelsets did not even run half the way the old wheelsets did.

It becomes more worse in curves. He also said the cars with the split-axles where shacking and vibrating recognizable. In curves, his PU train with new wheelsets lost remarkable speed.

 

All in all no good news  

So they change motto to "only the ceapest is good enough?" 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Giottist said:

Just tested the new wheels with the really heavy hopper car from set 60098: Same as in the short YT clip, but not as worse. The new axle stops any motion at 2/3 of the distance the old metal axle runs. It seem the new wheels are made of polyethylene and not of ABS, they are more elastic. Since I have now eight axles I like to make experiments with proper lubrication ... A candidate is lithium grease which is water and dust resistant.

 

 

If there are any active Ambassadors reading this, please bring this to the attention of Lego, maybe there is still hope.

[ALCO]

5 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

If there are any active Ambassadors reading this, please bring this to the attention of Lego, maybe there is still hope.

I sure hope some Ambassadors are reading this! 

Looking at the image linked to in this thread, it look like they are the new wheels on the wagons.... although, it also looks like they may have the actual wheel in red...or that is a red small train wheel as used in the Winter Village Holiday Train and a 2L axle can be used with the new bearing element. Look closely at the front wheel of the pilot truck. I guess that is a twist to the new element, an axle and standard train wheel can be used as well. 

 

[Giottist]

Another source of information about the other new train ...

[Roadmonkeytj]

So as much as we "hate" the new design I gotta say that this review brings up a very valid point. In the fact of custom bogies.  The friction is still an issue but if someone was enginuitive enough to put bearing in the old trucks ... Then why can't it be figured out with these? 

@Giottist thanks for sharing the link.

[Giottist]

New test results for the new wheel design: I lubricated them with a tiny speck of lithium grease: Now they roll down the ramp 20% further than the old design with unlubricated steel axles. The friction is lowered by more than a factor of two. Perhaps this makes any ball bearing unneccesary for general purposes. Ok, lubricated steel axles outperform lubricated plastic axles but the difference ist not so large.

Next step will be a test track with a train MOD with four 34 stud wagons on bogeys ...

Lithium grease has some advantages above oil: It is water- and dust resistant and it is like temperated butter but not a thin oil spilling around anywhere. I assume I have to clean the wheels from time to time but not frequently. My experience with thin silicon oil is not as good.

Addenum:

After several dozen tests the performance increases a litte bit, perhaps another 5% and can be compared now with lubricated steel axles. (Original unlubricated steel axles are more than 20% inferior now) It takes some time to build a final thin film of lubricant between the plastic parts. So, with a really tiny speck of lithium fat we can overcome the friction problem with really long or heavy trains. I guess, it won't be a problem for short toy trains anyway.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Giottist
Addenum

[Roadmonkeytj]

4 hours ago, Giottist said:

Lithium grease has some advantages above oil

If your willing to pay the cost I would be curious how Kluber would work?

https://cnc-specialty-store.com/grease-lubrication/kluber-isolflex-nbu-15-50-gram-tube?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI39z3qcqC5AIVBMDICh3NpQTjEAQYASABEgIBvvD_BwE

[JopieK]

There also is a WD40 version: https://www.wd40.com/products/white-lithium-grease/

[dr_spock]

It appears that the new wheels are on the LEGO online Pick A Brick now.