2019 LEGO Trains - 70424

[XG BC]

thats really odd i hope they run as good as the "older" ones with the metal axle

XG BC

[Lyichir]

11 hours ago, technic70s said:

I have just seen some conjecture by Ashley Bognar on "Lego Train Fan Club" Facebook page that the wheels for the trains may have had the metal axle removed. Here is what he posted.

"So, Lego has redesigned the 3×6 Train wheel to not use a metal axle anymore. Each wheel is individually moulded with an axle stub and is held into it's own clip. Thoughts?"

New Wheels by Stephen, on Flickr

It certainly looks to me that the holders have a "U" shape to them for a pin.

I would hesitate to make finalized judgment based on those pictures alone because they're from preliminary boxart with renders of the set instead of photographs. I'm not totally familiar with train parts so can't tell for sure—do the pictures and video from this article lead you to the same conclusion?

[technic70s]

Here is other pictures, of the set displayed in real parts.

3JPG by Stephen, on Flickr

Capture 2 by Stephen, on Flickr

The second photo looks a bit like it may be a Technic axial is being used.

Just to be clean, we don.t know if the wheels have changed.

Highlighting the different look of the pictures is just a way for the community to look at and try to work out if a change is coming. 

 

[M_slug357]

@technic70s I certainly hope this isnt true, seeing as we’ve just barely had the jump to the new PuP system— and have yet to see the whole range of items from this!!

The only way I could stomach such a change to these iconic train parts would be if the “standard” sized train wheel and 3x6 holster were to be made in alternative colors (in the near future??)...

For example, if they brought back the light bley version of the 3x6 holster...! And then maybe the 9V train wheel in blue or green? Hell, maybe even in white or pink...?

...I’d slap some sewer babies for wheels in gunmetal grey...

[peterab]

On 3/10/2019 at 3:37 PM, technic70s said:

Just to be clean, we don.t know if the wheels have changed. 

Actually what Ashley has said is he saw and handled the new parts so we know the new design is a fact. What we don't know is if they will replace all the future train sets with these wheels.

For a little more detail Ashley attended the Melbourne Toy Fair and saw the new train there. He was able to handle it but not take photos. Ashley is on the committee of my train club and I've known him for about 10 years so I have no doubt about what he says.

[dr_spock]

Maybe they redesigned the wheels and axle to be one piece like the rollercoaster's.  In which case the current frame would also be redesigned to hold them.  Instead of 4 parts for assembly, you would only need two. 

Following an old model railroading all plastic design? 

 

 

 

[Unfinished_Projects]

You can definitely see the new parts in the following video:

 

I personally don't mind if the design changes, as long as it functions the same.

Unfinished_Projects

[Aanchir]

Honestly, as long as the new train wheels function as well in practice as the old metal axle ones, I think switching to an all plastic design is a big improvement, since it would hopefully make them cheaper and allow designers to spend a little more on other parts of the train sets. Other types of LEGO vehicle switched away from metal axles many years ago.

This might also make the parts safe and accessible to younger builders so that it'd be easier to include train models and pieces in 4+ sets. I know that in the past, one of LEGO's only product recalls involved a Duplo truck with a metal axle that could be a puncture hazard for kids if the wheels became dislodged. And it's well known that trains are still really cool even to kids in the Duplo age set, so no reason to think kids between the typical LEGO City and LEGO Duplo target age wouldn't enjoy them!

[Bartosz]

15 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

since it would hopefully make them cheaper

That's what I'm waiting for. So annoyed that when bricklinking for train wheels you pay for three parts (wheel, enclosure and axle), and axle is quite pricey for a piece of metal...

Curious how it's gonna look when they really introduce those changes .

[Matt Dawson]

@Bartosz You might want to check BrickTracks' axles out... might need a dab of glue though.

[Bartosz]

Just now, Matt Dawson said:

@Bartosz You might want to check BrickTracks' axles out... might need a dab of glue though.

Yup, I keep that option in back of my head, don't have that huge plans for rolling stock to justify amounts/shipping overseas...

[dr_spock]

Metal axles can be made out of 0.078" music wire using a rotary tool and a cutting jig.  That's the cheapest way to get lots of metal axles.

It'll be interesting to see if the new wheel assemblies has less rolling friction. 

 

[Toxic43]

I bought a pack of these just over a year ago. They come in 3 packs of 20. I honestly can't tell the difference between the ones that come packaged with the LEGO train and these reproduction parts. It's just a metal axle that's been de-burred and polished. They work great and I have had no issues with them. Great value compared to the original LEGO ones also. Of course everything else in my trains is original, but these axles don't even feel like cheating.

[Laura Beinbrech]

16 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Honestly, as long as the new train wheels function as well in practice as the old metal axle ones, I think switching to an all plastic design is a big improvement, since it would hopefully make them cheaper and allow designers to spend a little more on other parts of the train sets. Other types of LEGO vehicle switched away from metal axles many years ago.

I'm with Aanchir 100% on this part:  if the all-plastic design functions as well as the type with metal axles (and there's no reason they shouldn't, since, as @dr_spock mentioned, plastic axles have been used for decades in rolling stock for HO & O scale model trains), I'm all for the change, particularly if it reduces overall costs of the wheelbases for trains (and doubly so if they include everything you need on PaB instead of just the wheels & holders without the axles like they do now).

[technic70s]

On 3/12/2019 at 9:27 AM, peterab said:

Actually what Ashley has said is he saw and handled the new parts so we know the new design is a fact. What we don't know is if they will replace all the future train sets with these wheels.

For a little more detail Ashley attended the Melbourne Toy Fair and saw the new train there. He was able to handle it but not take photos. Ashley is on the committee of my train club and I've known him for about 10 years so I have no doubt about what he says.

Thanks for the info @peterab, another Ambassador confirmed to me yesterday that the wheel holder is different as he was at the same show and saw the same thing. 

The idea that they are just a part for sets that are not run on tracks at speed and are just a type of part for a hand push train dosn't make sense to me, why would you design and make new moulds for two new parts that already exist.

Every time a new part is developed it means more moulds, more room to store the parts.

One advantage would be that you no longer need the metal axels, so that saves some storage and costs.

To my way of thinking, its more likely you would only bring out a new part type if you are dropping the old one.

The other option is they modify the holder, use the existing wheels 4621116 that take a Technic cross axil. That would mean storage of 5 parts down to 3, which would been an advantage from a production point of view.

Another option is a new holder and a once peace wheel and axial part like the new roller coaster wheel sets (Credit to @dr_spock for this idea) Going from 3 parts too 2.

@Aanchir you make a very good point about removing metal for a safer product for children. 

If we are seeing a new part type, at the moment we don't know enough about its construction to know its advantages or disadvantages.

I also find it interesting, as it makes you think from a production and design point of view how you would make the change and how you would do it.

I guest we will find out in Aug at the latest.

[Giottist]

2 hours ago, Laura Beinbrech said:

I'm with Aanchir 100% on this part:  if the all-plastic design functions as well as the type with metal axles (and there's no reason they shouldn't, since, as @dr_spock mentioned, plastic axles have been used for decades in rolling stock for HO & O scale model trains), I'm all for the change, particularly if it reduces overall costs of the wheelbases for trains (and doubly so if they include everything you need on PaB instead of just the wheels & holders without the axles like they do now).

On PaB holders (2878) and wheels (57878) are available, but no axles. That's true, but it's not a problem: On Ebay are a lot of suppliers from China/Hong Kong for model axles with matching size. I've ordered a package and the axles fit perfect into the holders and the wheels. No play, no friction. For real little money.

I'm afraid, if the rumor (until now it's only a rumor, please remember) is true, a lot of unneccessary friction will be introduced making it harder to drive a real long or heavy train to decent speeds. Plastic on plastic, that not the dream pairing for low friction.

[Laura Beinbrech]

3 hours ago, Giottist said:

I'm afraid, if the rumor (until now it's only a rumor, please remember) is true, a lot of unneccessary friction will be introduced making it harder to drive a real long or heavy train to decent speeds. Plastic on plastic, that not the dream pairing for low friction.

I have some 30 year old Athern HO-scale rolling stock with all plastic wheels & axles and have never had any issues with running them.  I mean granted LEGO train cars tend to be a bit heavier than even O-scale equivalents, but if done right, I don't foresee any issues with going all plastic.

[Hod Carrier]

Performance is likely to depend on how the axle bearings are designed. Most model rail manufacturers get good results from plastic axles by using pinpoint bearings at each end (basically the axle tapering to a point which locates inside a dimple moulded into the bogie frame). If TLG follow this principle we should be OK, but we’ll have to wait and see.

[Laura Beinbrech]

2 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

Performance is likely to depend on how the axle bearings are designed. Most model rail manufacturers get good results from plastic axles by using pinpoint bearings at each end (basically the axle tapering to a point which locates inside a dimple moulded into the bogie frame). If TLG follow this principle we should be OK, but we’ll have to wait and see.

I think that is the most likely approach that they'll take, since they use that exact method with the roller coaster car base wheels.

[M_slug357]

The problem that most of you don’t seem to realize with this new rendition of the train wheels is that we lose the ability to customize.

If the wheels wind up being a singular piece, we’ll no longer be able to make custom wheel sets/ bogies without altering said piece (ie cutting them). Also, if this new piece comes warped or damaged straight out of the box, you have to throw the whole piece out. Currently, if any one of the three different elements is damaged, (while still annoying) they are fairly easy to replace.

[Hod Carrier]

We don’t yet know that this is definitely going to be the case, or that the existing part with the metal axle is going to be retired. Let’s wait and see.

[Aanchir]

3 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

The problem that most of you don’t seem to realize with this new rendition of the train wheels is that we lose the ability to customize.

If the wheels wind up being a singular piece, we’ll no longer be able to make custom wheel sets/ bogies without altering said piece (ie cutting them). Also, if this new piece comes warped or damaged straight out of the box, you have to throw the whole piece out. Currently, if any one of the three different elements is damaged, (while still annoying) they are fairly easy to replace.

I didn't even realize before reading this post that making custom wheel sets and bogies that didn't use the full wheel-and-axle assembly was a thing that people did! Just did a Google search and it's kind of neat to see some of the designs people have come up with. But given that a lot of people have already attested to using non-purist metal axles, it doesn't seem as though the prospect of cutting parts should be a deal-breaker.

Also, is it normal for sets to come with warped or deformed train wheels or axles? Because if it is, that strikes me as MORE reason to replace the current molds, since ordinarily I feel like getting a noticeably deformed part in a brand-new set is a rare "worst case scenario", not something common enough to worry about whether the shape of the part makes it easier or harder to replace.

And if plastic axles do in fact turn out to be cheaper for LEGO to manufacture themselves than metal ones, then that should be a big plus as far as their ability to fulfill replacement part requests is concerned, since the actual kids who most train sets are targeted at aren't necessarily going to have the skills or knowledge to buy some third-party metal rod and cut it to size, as older train fans have learned they can do to save themselves the expense of ordering official LEGO train axles.

[Laura Beinbrech]

4 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

The problem that most of you don’t seem to realize with this new rendition of the train wheels is that we lose the ability to customize.

If the wheels wind up being a singular piece, we’ll no longer be able to make custom wheel sets/ bogies without altering said piece (ie cutting them). Also, if this new piece comes warped or damaged straight out of the box, you have to throw the whole piece out. Currently, if any one of the three different elements is damaged, (while still annoying) they are fairly easy to replace.

If they go with the same method that they used for the Roller Coaster Wheel bases, i.e. where the wheels + axles is one part & the holder is another part that the wheel assembly goes into, it could arguably make coming up with custom wheel sets/bogie even easier, since you'd be able to use the wheel & axle assembly without having to monkey around with the metal axles....  Again, if either part is damaged out of the box, all you'd have to do is replace whichever part is bad rather than the whole thing...

[Matt Dawson]

1 hour ago, Laura Beinbrech said:

If they go with the same method that they used for the Roller Coaster Wheel bases, i.e. where the wheels + axles is one part & the holder is another part that the wheel assembly goes into, it could arguably make coming up with custom wheel sets/bogie even easier, since you'd be able to use the wheel & axle assembly without having to monkey around with the metal axles....  Again, if either part is damaged out of the box, all you'd have to do is replace whichever part is bad rather than the whole thing...

It makes things WORSE actually, as it means you have to fit something at either end of the axle - nearly all custom designs rely on roller bearings and metal axles to ensure friction reduction and a strong design. Changing to a new system where we're reliant on securing the outside of the axle will limit most customisation.

[M_slug357]

@Matt Dawson Thanks for agreeing with me!

@Hod Carrier I <3 throwing wild theories out into the... uh wild... lol

@Aanchir & @Laura Beinbrech I see your point(s), and have a counter offer:

What if:

(1) the new rendition of train wheels are actually just an all plastic version of the original 9V train wheels— where the axle goes through the wheels and has a resting point on both ends inside the 3x6 holster piece?

(2) said new axle is actually just a 5.5 stud long bar minus that stopper ring bit, allowing for even more customization(s) to be had?