Ngoc Nguyen

42100 Liebherr R9800 Excavator

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15 hours ago, SNIPE said:

I assume the pneumatic hoses are used simply for detail in this set? That's a first I think for official lego sets.

I think 8860 had a handful of hoses thrown in for engine detail.

On another note, it's good to see a shift away from the chromatic emesis afflicting graceless lumps like 42070.

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22 hours ago, Yevhen said:

You'll get more tubes for your pneumatics from other sets.

I think pneumatic tubing, like string, is better sourced from non-lego.

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9 hours ago, suffocation said:

I think 8860 had a handful of hoses thrown in for engine detail.

On another note, it's good to see a shift away from the chromatic emesis afflicting graceless lumps like 42070.

8440 also used the hoses for engine detail. That was my first ever technic set as a kid and I thought that aspect was amazing 

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On 2/11/2019 at 10:15 AM, Ivan_M said:

So, lets discuss how the tracks are going to be powered, we have two options:

a) hub & motors in superstructure, 2 axles through turntable

b) hub & motors in undercarrige, slewing in undercarrige as well

But there is more to it:

1) Direct drive - each motor drives it own track

2) Substractor

So what is your guess? The model is big enough to feature A) + 2), but I'm afraid we will see more basic configuration. Could be nice mod though.

 

 

Extremely unlikely to be a subtractor. The model is way too big and Lego diffs don't cope well with high torque. It doesn't matter though, as the the control will likely be similar to sbrick, where each track can be controlled by a slider, providing the same function a subtractor would.

Subtractors in tracked vehicles are pretty obsolete nowadays unless you're stuck with the basic IR receiver and regular controller. 

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11 hours ago, Tarix819 said:

 

Extremely unlikely to be a subtractor. The model is way too big and Lego diffs don't cope well with high torque. It doesn't matter though, as the the control will likely be similar to sbrick, where each track can be controlled by a slider, providing the same function a subtractor would.

Subtractors in tracked vehicles are pretty obsolete nowadays unless you're stuck with the basic IR receiver and regular controller. 

Yeah. A subtractor is usually controlled via an up/down stick and a left/right stick where as 42100 appears to be driven from two up/down "sticks". I also don't think the real liebherr r9800 would be driven by a subtractor. 

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46 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

What is that subtractor that you guys are referring to?

It is system of driving skid-steering vehicle using one motor as driving and other for steering purpose only. It allows you to have different types of motors, for example XL for driving and M for steering. While it is not accurate to real thing is is quite interesting from technic view as it is featuring two differentials and a lot of gears. Real machine uses of course hydraulic motors driven by diesel/electric generator

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On 2/10/2019 at 10:32 PM, bonox said:

But how many of you believe that in 20 years, you'll still have a working app and a device capable of connecting to this new range of stuff?

Yair, mate, I'll take that bet.  Assuming I'm around in 20 years.  I'm getting on a bit eh.

Bluetooth 1.0 is 20 years old.  It's not going away.  Bluetooth (and USB) are the standards we'll have for the rest of the century, like CAN Bus in vehicles, and the screw-in light bulb. 

It's not like all those dead tech protocols like SCSI or betamax, or the floppy disk or whatever.

If you check the train forum, there are multiple open source apps being built for PU, Boost etc, they're all the same protocol.  It's published.  Apps built in python, or visual basic or whatever aren't going to just stop working.

Compared to some monster 7-stick official TLG remote, this is a better way :thumbup:

I'd put $100 AUD on it.  See you in 20 years? :wink:

 

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I am still hoping that, somewhere along the line, a physical controller will be made or the original PU remote can connect to the control+ hub. I still remember those patents with the axle-hole remote input.

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To be honest all that IT communication reminds me on my job; so hobby should not remind me on job, it should take my attention away from work so in this case I'll concentrate myself on sprockets xl

Edited by I_Igor

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1 hour ago, andythenorth said:

Bluetooth 1.0 is 20 years old.  It's not going away.  Bluetooth (and USB) are the standards we'll have for the rest of the century, like CAN Bus in vehicles, and the screw-in light bulb.

My Nokia 5310 phone can send sound to my car stereo through bluetooth. That doesn't mean I will be able to stear this Liebherr R9800 with it.

Edited by zoo

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1 hour ago, I_Igor said:

[...] hobby should not remind me on job, it should take my attention away from work [...]

Well said, my friend. That's the very reason why I always build (and tear down!) by trial and error instead of using Lego software - the last thing I need is even more hours glued to a bloody screen.

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Just now, suffocation said:

Well said, my friend. That's the very reason why I always build (and tear down!) by trial and error instead of using Lego software - the last thing I need is even more hours glued to a bloody screen.

I could not agree more.

Regards

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1 hour ago, suffocation said:

I always build (and tear down!) by trial and error instead of using Lego software

Me too... i like lego because its lego, a 3d rendering isn't lego, its a graphic. At least half the fun is in the trial and error, build and rebuild. 'Perfecting' something on-screen and then building it once, isn't lego for me... (and i'm a software developer, so i'm definitely not anti-tech!)

Thats why i much prefer mocs to sets - don't get me wrong, i love the official sets and enjoy building them, but nothing comes close to sitting down with nothing but a rough idea and trying, and failing, and re-trying until you have something. 5 times better than building from an instruction, or a pre-designed virtual moc... in my opinion, of course!

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And do not forget how much time it consumes and clears your mind when you are searching for ideal liftarm, panel, connector...

Now when I see this Liebherr I can imagine how great it would be to have frame 7 X 11 in black :wub: (I just got an idea for my current project where this part would be perfect)

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5 hours ago, andythenorth said:

I'd put $100 AUD on it.  See you in 20 years? :wink:

 

An interesting idea, but that's not how forward planning works. Most people also completely forget about tech disruptors. 20 years ago, the bluetooth protocol existed, but it wasn't really until 2004 that Nokia produced the low energy device version of it and put it into a phone and it wasn't really until three years later that someone introduced a phone/device (with the iphone) capable of running the kinds of apps and swipe control mechanism that we use to control the current range of lego devices. On that basis i'd argue that the available hardware for lego focussed apps is only 12 years old so far. While the term 'smartphone' goes back to the early 1990s, those phones were nothing like what is needed for current apps.

 

And how many of you have an original iphone/galaxy/etc lying around that can run todays apps?

And the point about tech disruptors was exactly that iphone 12 years ago. Nokia/blackberry etc never saw it coming, weren't prepared for it and went to the wall. All the 'old tech' died in a few years once the new stuff became generally affordable. Are you comfortable saying that there will be no new tech in the next decade that will make all these current devices and software properly obsolete so that you'll have to try and mothball a special one just to control your lego? Hoping in that time that the built in battery doesn't crap itself and corrode the thing from the inside out? Or will even still work 10 years later? I dug out my old nokia 3310 a little while ago and that battery, while carefully looked after during its working life, is now bulging and not something i'd trust not to catch fire or burst in the hands of my children.

 

This is actually the same reason I still really like paper instructions. Sure it's a waste of trees, but it's just wonderful to not have to keep looking at a screen at the end of the day.

oh, and final point - bluetooth is old. But the new versions are not backward compatible with the old ones. Same frequency spectrum, different channels, modulation and even frequency hopping for interference avoidance. Quite possible that your 2039 device with bluetooth won't talk to the older BT lego hardware.

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32 minutes ago, bonox said:

Most people also completely forget about tech disruptors.

It's a fair point, but tech just doesn't change very fast, compared to the public  perception of how fast it changes (which is hyped to sell hardware or software product or services).

Change in protocols and programming languages is really really slow.

Makes me wonder if we're talking sideways.  :classic:

If your point is that the TLG official app will be dead as a doornail, yair fair point, I agree completely, you can have the $100 AUD on that.  :thumbup:

But if there are people interested in keeping open source software alive for this, then it's going to be easy to keep alive.  I can play computer games from 1984 on my 2018 laptop, and without using any programming skills.  But yair, it won't just be hand a phone to the kids.  Different world. 

Really depends on how comfortable you are messing around with the tech.  I do it for fun, and in my job.   :ugh:

I get the point also, for some posters here Lego Technic is an escape from electronic tech, makes sense.

Edited by andythenorth

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On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 1:17 AM, bonox said:

The alternative? A device produced by TLG that is capable of driving the receivers in the toy. Look at PoweredUp trains for example. TLG are producing a hardware controller for it instead of forcing you to bring your own device. Now that doesn't mean you have to make the whole lot proprietary. You can still use bluetooth as a open protocol for example, and you could still produce an app for users to be able to control the thing with a tablet/phone, but at a basic level, if you make available a hardware device to control it, then you cater to the market who don't have or want to use a phone, plus it will still work in 20 years time, even when bluetooth no longer exists as a current protocol, the carrier spectrum (wifi/NFC/BT) has changed and no device or operating system exists that will run an app that hasn't been updated in 15 years.

I enjoyed playing with Lego as a kid (still do actually which is why i'm discussing this now) and i'm starting to transfer the long term durable toy I had as a child to my own child. Also, my future purchasing decisions are beginning to be influenced by something it never was influenced by before - and that's the short term nature of expecting a long life product being controllable only by short design life software and hardware. I'm beginning to change my buying habits that used to be "i'll get to pass this to my grandchildren to enjoy" to "it looks good now but in a few years time it'll be a 500euro paperweight because it won't work as intended".

I really do see and share your point. It is/was/will be my criticism regarding TLGs >support< (and not the actual release) of electronic hardware. Not the brick stuff.

I am 57 years old. I do have (OK refurbished but still with original parts - almost all) my first train set form 1965 on a shelf. Bricks from 2019 attach to the bricks from 1965. This is incredible and almost unprecedented in the world we are living in. So TLG achieved something that no other profit driven (toy) company has, as far as I know. There are AEG ovens and Bauknecht washing machines (I am German) and all have become Whirlpool devices - but they still do run and they are supported. It is a pain in the butt to get support, but in the end it works out. When you are >persistent< and call them again and again.

In the world of electronics things are a little different. But: I still can order 74XX chips, when I try really hard. I may even have to salvage old stuff (believe it or not, we tore down a mass spec from 2001 today - was worth 0.5 Mio back then - and I found tons of 74XX chips inside. On sockets - so these will find their way in to my drawers. And believe me, my grad students believe that I am from another world - and old world). 

What I want to say is: TLG produced extremely well designed and powerful electronic devices over the decades. Code Pilot, the RCX (1998), Scout, MicroScout, NXT, EV3, Boost, PuP (PF2) stuff … And: When you try really hard - THAT IS THE BAD PART (TLG DO YOU HEAR ME?) - you can all of this stuff get to work. It is up to you though.

I have said it before here on EB: I am a VB6 totally amateur programmer. VB - Oh my God 6. It was officially depreciated by MS in 2002. Give or take a couple of years. But: It still works. Was a lot of work, but it works. And it works with the new BLE stuff from TLG. It is not about a stupid handheld or even more stupid App TLG gives us. It s about finding out how it works, take steps to conserve that functionality and make it sustainable.

What I find so … no words here … that the "community" and individuals have to do that. TLG is sailing on - they will come up with something even more sophisticated any time soon. Simply to cash in. They will put incompatible connectors onto these devices. Simply to cash in. It is all about money. Within all that money world though they can hire smart people. Endless numbers of smart people. The PuP BLE stuff >is< cool. Really. But you need to discover that yourself. Because TLG in all their glory and arrogance don't do that for and with us. They release a cryptic document here and there - and then tech-gurus know how to read it - and share that knowledge. And that is the difference: They do, here on EB and elsewhere.

So, in conclusion: I would like to join @andythenorth's challenge and throw in another €50 (chances are that I may not make it till then …): Yes, when you really want, BLE will be in you world then.

All the best,
Thorsten

 

          

      

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5 hours ago, suffocation said:

Well said, my friend. That's the very reason why I always build (and tear down!) by trial and error instead of using Lego software - the last thing I need is even more hours glued to a bloody screen.

I also agree and do my mocs the same way, it is also why I rarely moc buildings or houses as I build them everyday at my job. 

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There will always be a group that will keep the "connection" going thus obsolescence would not be an issue for decades. The issue will be the life span of the Hub itself.

For me the App and phone is not an issue. For those that it is convert it to Power functions motors and IR controllers (remember when IR came out....still being used today) and when you convert it I'll buy the hub and motors ;-) 

I plan on buying one out of the gate then another when it is 20% off (AU 700+ RRP).

Boost has opened up the possibility for cheap controllers for GBC and other builds so hopefully Control+ will add to it.

Edited by HRU_Bricks

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The good thing i see here is that finally we will have an instruction set that can rival the likes of shineyu.( and I mean this with all the respect to shineyu ) Most of us may have a ton of bricks as I do. I'm not a big fan of large panels so I'll substitute with tiles, plates etc. We can also add beams to create the larger actauators.. exciting stuff !! 

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On 2/14/2019 at 2:50 PM, Toastie said:

TLG is sailing on - they will come up with something even more sophisticated any time soon. Simply to cash in. They will put incompatible connectors onto these devices. Simply to cash in. It is all about money. Within all that money world though they can hire smart people.         

I think that's a little disingenuous. I think if anything TLG has proven time and time again that they do care about backwards compatibility. PF to 9v. 1950 to 2019's brick. Even between Friends figures and minifigs. There's all logic to the madness. I have heard that the decision to go with new connectors for PF2 was largely a safety decision. With PF1, and its range of connection possibilities, it was possible to create a dangerous loopback and damage components, create shorts, etc. With PF2 and its new (non reverse-able) connector, it's not possible.

I also hear that's why TLG is reluctant to introduce a PF1/9v to PF2 conversion cable. If they do, then it allows those loopbacks again. It's important to remember that Lego, ultimately, is a child's toy. :) Even electronic components need to be safely usable by kids 5-10 years old.

Compatibility wise, it's good that Lego is making all the different ranges compatible in their own ways. WeDo 2.0, Boost, Powered UP, Technic CONTROL+. The software isn't there yet, but hopefully it will be, and until then, we make our own. :D

(Incidentally I also hear that's part of the reason why 9v trains went away. Yes the rails were expensive, but also the exposed metal conducting electricity gave young kids shocks.)

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