kabel Posted January 20, 2019 1st Edit: On January 20th the Youtuber "Held der Steine", well known in the German AFOL scene, posts a video in which he describes how he got a letter from Lego's attorneys to change a logo he's been using in his videos and on his Bricklink account since 2014 as Lego proposes it infringes their trademark. Annoyed by how Lego handled the situation he describes how he will henceforth cut direct ties with TLG and also review sets from other companies from now on. German Lego fans actually read an attack of Lego on a critical reviewer into the situation and start a shit storm against TLG. Several questions arise from this and leave the German AFOL debating hotly wether it was TLG or youtuber HDS who overreacted over this issue. Original Post: Not sure what is wrong with Lego these days, intimidating Thomas Panke aka "Helder der Steine" with a lawsuit over the usage of "studs" in his old logo is one of the dumbest moves Lego has ever done! If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch this video! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JopieK Posted January 20, 2019 Although some people at 1000steine apparently have some doubts about it being legit or some kind of weird self-promotion. Even if it would be legit, then not only LEGO has lost it, it is for sure that Thomas is getting more and more sour in his videos. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kabel Posted January 20, 2019 But then again I've just read that promobricks got a similar letter! Could it be that TLG is scared of some critics recieving too much attention? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JopieK Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) Ok, well let's see I think LEGO will give a reaction: it already causes a lot of chatter at the social media platforms of the world wide web. Edited January 20, 2019 by JopieK I merged the two topics about the same subject Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrickMusher Posted January 20, 2019 Hello to the community. Until today, there was a very famous YT-Channel in germany. Thomas Panke, called "Held der Steine" (Hero of the bricks) is well known for his detailed reviews of new Lego Sets as well as for his retrospectives on vintage sets. He also owns and runs a small Store in the City of Frankfurt, where he sells Lego to the consumer. While he always was searching for the god things, even in the worst sets, he is also well known for his constructive critism on things like Quality, but also management, marketing a.s.o. Today he announced to expand his reviews also to Non-Lego manufactured bricks. Reason for that is that he was admonished in the Name of TLG by a Lawyer for showing a Stud in his own logo! It was claimed that this logo would suggest, he would be TLG.... logo Well, if you don´t understand german, you would properly not know about him. But I loved his reviews and videos, and my personal opinion is that he was usualy had a point with his critsm. And he brought a lot of people, which are not AFOL´s in our understanding, back to the bricks. You can get an owm impression here: facebook twitter 1000steine If everything is true what he says in his actual video, I have to wonder a lot at that issue. Is it only a german thing, or did it happen also to other Lego related youtube channels, Blogs or Vlogs around the world? Cant TLG handle justified critism in an other than this very childish and unprossesional manner? Have you heard about other cases like that? regards BrickMusher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x105Black Posted January 20, 2019 33 minutes ago, BrickMusher said: Today he announced to expand his reviews also to Non-Lego manufactured bricks. Reason for that is that he was admonished in the Name of TLG by a Lawyer for showing a Stud in his own logo! It was claimed that this logo would suggest, he would be TLG.... logo So this could be over if he changed the logo? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darnok Posted January 20, 2019 I know the channel, and am quite confused. How this could go wrong - and wrong it is without doubt - is eyond me. Following this with great interest! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kabel Posted January 20, 2019 39 minutes ago, x105Black said: So this could be over if he changed the logo? He's already changed his logo but also canceled the buisiness deal with TLG so he can now sell other bricks besides Lego in his store. A huge shit storm is currently sweeping through the German Lego community. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peppermint_M Posted January 20, 2019 If you edge over the fair use policy and start making money (even if it is a monetised YT channel) then the lawyers are going to come along regardless of your stance on the product. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lyichir Posted January 20, 2019 Eh... this kind of tempest in a teapot is just one reason I think it might benefit Lego to be careful trying to market through "influencers" on sites like YouTube. YouTube personalities, from my experience, can be a heck of a lot more volatile and risky than established fansites that offer reviews from a multitude of perspectives and don't have as much of an individual profit motive. I don't necessarily know if I grasp the full story but I can definitely see why Lego's lawyers might see the potential for brand confusion, if he's reviewing knockoff sets alongside actual Lego sets while using a Lego-like logo. A cease and desist letter does not seem like it'd be overkill to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sjoemie himself Posted January 20, 2019 Just now, Lyichir said: I can definitely see why Lego's lawyers might see the potential for brand confusion, if he's reviewing knockoff sets alongside actual Lego sets while using a Lego-like logo This is exactly what he was not doing. He very much spoke against firms such as L***N and only reviewed official LEGO sets. He mentioned many times in his videos that he likes the LEGO bricks, just not the firm as such (marketing, product development etcetera..). I understand that LEGO has to protect their brand and products but I think it is very un-wise of them to do it in such a manner. Thomas is definately a AFOL and really has some great ideas about what LEGO could improve to increase their products and sales. If only LEGO would take a little advice from the people who actually sell their products, and thus know the customer.. Die Füchse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vindicare Posted January 20, 2019 So, he has a bit of a tantrum & acts like a child? Doing the “I’ll show them!”by selling and/or reviewing other brands....really? What was TLG’s reasoning for going after his logo? I’d be interested to see their official email indicating why. If he didn’t have permission to use, or it’s too close to TLG’s brick design(it does look similar to Duplo bricks) & he is big enough, I can see why they went after it. They want to protect their brand & their logo being used by people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Artanis I Posted January 21, 2019 TLG had better sue Eurobricks then. There's studs on our logo too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny1360 Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Artanis I said: TLG had better sue Eurobricks then. There's studs on our logo too! As far as I know Eurobricks isn't making money or profiting from it. I believe that is the main difference, of course I could be totally wrong about that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LegoDW Posted January 21, 2019 Very disappointing. Hope this is a fake story. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darnok Posted January 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Vindicare said: So, he has a bit of a tantrum & acts like a child? Not at all actually. Given the circumstances he acted relaxed and professional. Unless you know the guy and his video already I would refrain from any comments. Most people in here act on third-hand knowledge and jump to (incorrect) conclusions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mylenium Posted January 21, 2019 9 hours ago, Lyichir said: I don't necessarily know if I grasp the full story but I can definitely see why Lego's lawyers might see the potential for brand confusion, if he's reviewing knockoff sets alongside actual Lego sets while using a Lego-like logo. A cease and desist letter does not seem like it'd be overkill to me. Completely wrong. No such thing ever happened. He's a total LEGO loyalist and never has even reviewed a third-party set until know. Only now that LEGO are after his scalp things are going to change and you can think what you want about it - it's just the stupidest thing LEGO could have done to go after one, if not theeee most prominent LEGO advocate. Despite his dislike for the company itself (which, let's be honest, isn't much better than any big cong-glo-mo and shares the same problems and shortcomings of any big organization) he has done a lot to advertise sets, even if he disssed them for being rubbish. So again, this is grade A stupid and a major SNAFU. Mylenium 5 hours ago, Johnny1360 said: I could be totally wrong about that. Sure, in that LEGO's "fair use" is in no way legally binding and thus practically useless. Incidentally that is part of the problem - those policies are not compliant with a lot of legal regulations not just in Germany. Whether you make any money of it is ultimately not even the first consideration in legal terms, so with all respect, I would not assume that Eurobricks would be safe just because they're not making a penny. On a bad day LEGO could just change their mind and then what? Mylenium 8 hours ago, Vindicare said: So, he has a bit of a tantrum & acts like a child? Far from it. You should watch the video. 8 hours ago, Vindicare said: What was TLG’s reasoning for going after his logo? Apparently there's a bunch of secondary trademarks registered by LEGO (for apparel etc.) that can affect lookalike logo designs in that it may be illegal to represent any form of a brick e.g. on a T-shirt. which of course ironically brings us back to that argument about people being "safe" when they're not making money of such stuff. Wrong - a simple fan T-shirt could constitute a breach of the rules under those conditions. 8 hours ago, Vindicare said: If he didn’t have permission to use, or it’s too close to TLG’s brick design(it does look similar to Duplo bricks) & he is big enough, I can see why they went after it. They want to protect their brand & their logo being used by people. Weak argument that likely wouldn't hold up in court, especially since as per my previous comment the "fair use" rules wouldn't hold water. Even the dumbest expert would likely be able to discern that the similarities are not at all in any way a threat to LEGO's brand integrity. And in German legal terms you would first have to prove that actual damage has been done, which might prove difficult for a YouTube channel that is proactivile advertising for LEGO products, not against them. Mylenium Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
incognito Posted January 21, 2019 It doesn't matter if Lego is in the right or not in this case, it's just so stupid. Yes, Thomas is very critical, but he is the biggest Lego Youtuber in Germany (150k for a German channel is alot, and he reached that in a relatively short period). I mean, Jang has "only" 1.1 million with a world wide audience! Every company is looking for influencers on youtube and instagram, that is a whole industry now. And Thomas did it for free. Yes, he critized many things and the company, but also shows what's great about Lego. And he sells sets. I had an UCS Tie Fighter on ebay for many weeks, and when his review came out, it was sold on the same day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kabel Posted January 21, 2019 The point is that the 160.000 (by now) subscribers are by no means his entire audience. Some of his videos reached over a million clicks. Personally, I've watched like every second of his videos for about 8 months now, depending on whether I was interested in the Lego theme or not. However, since I don't have a yt account I'm not one of the subscribers ... Germany with its 83 mio inhabitants is actually Lego's largest market in Europe. To piss off one of the country's most important AFOL influencers was just plain stupid. Not that LEGO really cares for the AFOL community anyways, but many of us are parents! So of course my kids (two boys 12 and 9 - the relevant group I suppose) thought for example that NK was rubbish and bought their castle stuff from Playmobil instead of from Lego. I could actually see how crazy their demand was when they killed their entire savings in order to buy all Harry Potter sets at once ... Having said all of that, I will not boycott TLG, as many people suggested. But I've finally taken off my pink glasses for good and will consider my spending habits (and those of my kids) more critically. Fortunately 2019 seems to be the worst Lego year since 2003 or so anyway ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peppermint_M Posted January 21, 2019 We all risk the brand we are fans of coming down, legally speaking, and demanding we cease using anything they have legal ownership of. This is why EB does not host leaks or discussion of bootleg sets. Companies owe us nothing, brand loyalty is a personal choice and purchasing their products only covers you for quality standards. I love bricks and building with them, brand is secondary unless I want to enter contests Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anothergol Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Peppermint_M said: anything they have legal ownership of. But do they? Other brands show studs on their boxes. If Lego could have done anything about it (for its legal competitors like mega bloks or cobi), they would have. It's not "Lego" anyway, it's their lawyers who have to justify their use. They're paid for crap like that & most likely won't ask Lego first. Edited January 21, 2019 by anothergol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted January 21, 2019 6 hours ago, Drunknok said: Unless you know the guy and his video already I would refrain from any comments. Most people in here act on third-hand knowledge and jump to (incorrect) conclusions. I don't speak or understand German and don't watch his channel, and I'm really curious: to what extent has he been critical of TLG? If he's been endlessly, continuously bashing the company, then I could see them getting tired of it (and just looking for a way to go after him), especially if he claims to be "promoting" their product. But if it's mostly casual criticisms, then their response wouldn't really make sense from that point of view. I would like to know the exact wording of their communications with him, if that's even a possibility. I just think there's more to this than a logo. I'd like to hear both sides of the story, in full. If he's been very critical in the past then I suspect his side is at least a little bit biased... I would like to know more. As it stands I'm not going to try to draw solid conclusions. Is it just me or are more and more AFOLs actively looking for reasons to not like TLG, based on product offerings and marketing and so on? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kabel Posted January 21, 2019 Actually, his criticism is often grounded on his experience as the owner of a small Lego shop in the middle of Frankfurt. So he basically keeps on relating to what his costumers tell him they'd like to buy (real castle, real space, pirate ships, straight rail track etc.) and the way TLC treads him as a business partner (sending beaten advent calenders [without minidolls] in August, not supplying him with LEGO bags anymore, keeping him from selling exclusives etc.) Generally though he keeps repeating how much he loves the product itself but despises the management, especially the marketing department for various reasons (price strategy, weird usuage of colors in Technis sets etc.). Lego designers are usually excempt from his criticism though. Personally I can't always share all of his criticism but generally his point is usualy fact based and constructive. For instance, in his last video he talked about how much he loved the the design of the new Hogwarts Express but critisized that at 80 € it came without (straight) track and magnet cupplers and was difficult to motorize and that he could not sell it in his store since it's a Lego exclusive. I usually have his videos running when I'm procrastinating since I really enjoy his sense of humor (believe it or not, some Germans are funny!) and sometimes base my buying decisions on his reviews or building videos. Actually a lot of German AFOLs do that. Today more facts came to light though. Appearently he wanted to register his own HDS logo as a trademark so he can sell some channel based merch (like cups) himself as a little extra. This could actually be the reason why Lego's lawyers caught him on their screen. Spoiler As for your hidden question: Speaking for myself, I guess those of us who grew up with Lego in the 80s and 90s feel like the product is not what it used to be anymore. I kinda feel like the situation mirros that of the late 90s when LEGO lost me as a costumer for the first time only to get me back in when my kids were born after 2006. But without generic castle, pirates, western, space and affordable trains I have no idea what to make of current Lego. If it wasn't for Harry Potter, I'd be on my way back into my dark ages! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dr_spock Posted January 21, 2019 It could be his logo design choices. The LEGO Group claims the basic brick and knobs are their trademarks. I suppose his IP lawyers can fight it out in court with the LEGO lawyers if he feels his logo is not infringing anything. The LEGO Group is also the owner of a whole range of additional trademarks, including the LEGO logo, the minifigure, the basic brick and the knobs. It is a common misunderstanding that the basic brick and the knobs are not protected as trademarks; even though they are not registered for construction toys, they are still registered for other toys and various other goods. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted January 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, kabel said: Today more facts came to light though. Appearently he wanted to register his own HDS logo as a trademark so he can sell some channel based merch (like cups) himself as a little extra. This could actually be the reason why Lego's lawyers caught him on their screen. Aha. I suspected there was more to it. And the type of criticisms you mentioned him giving sound perfectly reasonable to me. I doubt TLG would go after him for that! And I don't quite know what to make of the current offerings either. Generic castle, pirates, and western are all great to me. (I hate Star Wars and Harry Potter and anything like them, and most licensed themes, too. But I'm not really their target audience, so... Bricklink fills my void...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
