[Rules] Pirate Hideouts

[Bregir]

Hideouts

As everyone knows, any real pirate needs a secret base from which to operate. A hidden cove, camouflaged anchorage, a giant sea cave hide-away, or similar. A place to refit and rest, enjoy good spirits and easy company, dock prizes, stow loot, sort their captured goods, and hold prisoners for ransom.

In short, they need a true pirate Hideout!

Such Hideouts can now be established in the Brick Seas, and these will allow Black Flag pirates a secret base to end their turn in while keeping their location secret from prying eyes and over-zealous port officials or tax collectors.

General Rules

• A Hideout can be established on *any* island in Terra Nova
• Hideout locations are secret, only known to the owner and any who he/she wishes to tell (and the MRCA committee)
• Each player can have one (1) active hideout at any time (And the Sea Rat faction can have an additional two (2) Hideouts - see below)
• Players are welcome to cooperate and build up a network of hideouts for their black flaggers. If they trust their fellows enough to divulge the location of their hideout...
• Only Black Flag ships can dock at a hideout
• Only those knowing name and location of the Hideout can dock there
• Ships docking at a Hideout operate in secret and will not have their locations published in the KPA
• Ships docking at a Hideout are at the mercy of the Hideout owner and can be taken without a fight
• A Hideout can be abandoned at any time by the owner, by giving public notice

Establishing a Hideout

To establish a Hideout, you must post a MOC of the Hideout of minimum 32x32 (or equivalent). This build (or series of builds) should show the Hideout and its surroundings. Creativity is encouraged!

A link to the Hideout must be posted in this thread with the date. The name of your Hideout may be published publicly, but keep password and location secret.

You then decide on a location (island) for the hideout and a password, and send this in a pm to the MRCA committee (Currently @Bregir, @Capt Wolf, and @Captain Genaro) who will maintain a database on these. The name of the hideout have to be given as destination in the tMRCA form.

You can submit your build as a freebuild with the freebuild form.

Setting up a Hideout costs 300 dbs. Sea Rats are pirates by nature, and only need 150 dbs to establish a hideout.

NB: The Sea Rat faction can have up to two (2) active Hideouts at any time. These are free and requires only a minimum 16x16 microbuild to activate.

Discovering (and Destroying) a Hideout

There are two ways in which a hideout can be discovered. Once discovered, the discoverer is free to use this information as he pleases. (You could extort the owner, ask for the rights to dock there, destroy the hideout, or whatever suits your fancy)

1. By an Adventure!
   There are those who wish nothing good for the free of heart and loose morals.
   An aMRCA can target an island with the express intent of flushing out a Hideout. Once the first round GM rulings have been handled, if there is one or more Hideouts on that island, password and location of a random one will be revealed to the adventurer.
2. By treachery or espionage.
   Anyone with the knowledge of password and location of the Hideout may betray it and reveal the Hideout to someone else, or decide to use the information himself.

NB: A hideout will always be active the first 3 turns after establishment. (Unless dissolved by the owner)

Anyone who discovers the password and location of a Hideout can destroy it. To destroy a Hideout, the discoverer must present a minimum 16x16 build showing some aspect of the discovery/destruction and publicly post the password and location of the hideout.

Once the Hideout is closed down, the discoverer steals any the hidden treasures and receives d6x25 dbs and a chance to win a BoBS card. Once destroyed, all vessels in the Hideout must immediately leave (by the next MRCA turn).

A word of advice - if you are a pirate and have taken a prize into your Hideout, it may be prudent to let a potential buyer take it over only after it has been sailed to a nearby "official" port. You do not to want to accidentally divulge the zone in which your Hideout is located!

NB: These rules are subject to clarification and adjustment once they are play-tested. You will not lose your hideout, but may find some conditions being adjusted.

NB: An example will be posted within a few days.

[Darnok]

Really, really cool idea.

 

The rules implementation looks solid at first sight. Maybe the next MRCA turns will show some issues, but I see nothing that can not be solved by some playtesting.

 

Many thanks to whoever was part of coming up with this! Another nice addition to gameplay, opening up a variety of thigns that were not possible before.

[Darnok]

A few questions:

1. I assume that a ship docking in a hideout does not generate a profit during that MRCA turn? If it does: what numbers is the profit based on?
2. Is this on top of "blackflagged SR ships are hidden in SR ports etc." as per the last KPA? If so, this is another bonus for SR players without a negative.
3. Why is it that SR players get this cheaper, for less effort, and in higher numbers? It makes IC sense for them, agreed. But the same could be argued for any other faction. As it is, this feels like yet another bonus for SR players, with no downside at all.
4. If a hideout is found by an AMRCA: at what point can that same island be used again for another safe hideout by the same player? Meaning: if such a "rat hunt" is successful, at what point is the island "safe" again for a hideout?
5. Somewhat related to #4: is there a way to prevent a hideout being set up in some way? I might be missing something, but right now it seems to me as if I could - as an example - set up a hideout next to Breshaun, until an AMRCA soecifically aimed to find it gets lucky, and the next turn I could set it up again.
6. Does a hideout pay any form of upkeep, or is this already included in the initial cost?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Drunknok

[Kai NRG]

This is an awesome addition, hoping to see some great builds and action coming out of this!

[Garmadon]

Sweet!!  I'd been hoping to try to set up something like this for Captain Nordau through an AMRCA sometime, but these rules seem about perfect!  Another great addition - thanks again to the court for their tireless work for this game! 

[Capt Wolf]

4 hours ago, Drunknok said:

1. I assume that a ship docking in a hideout does not generate a profit during that MRCA turn

Correct. A hideout has no trade value. If it is your destination, you'll earn no profit from trade that turn. It's value is strategic, not monetary.

4 hours ago, Drunknok said:

2. Is this on top of "blackflagged SR ships are hidden in SR ports etc." as per the last KPA?

Yes, this is in addition to that.

3 hours ago, Drunknok said:

3. Why is it that SR players get this cheaper, for less effort, and in higher numbers?

Because each faction gets a thing they're better at, and for Sea Rats, that's piracy. Given how many problems we've had encouraging piracy in BoBS, and considering this is the Pirates  forum, it's not unreasonable.

4 hours ago, Drunknok said:

4. If a hideout is found by an AMRCA: at what point can that same island be used again for another safe hideout by the same player? Meaning: if such a "rat hunt" is successful, at what point is the island "safe" again for a hideout?

Good question. I think this came up in the discussion at some point, but i don't recall a definitive answer.

4 hours ago, Drunknok said:

5. Somewhat related to #4: is there a way to prevent a hideout being set up in some way?

At this time, no. Every island is fair game. But note that a hideout does not harm an island or its settlements in any way. It simply provides a secret port for pirates in that zone. The specific location, such as next to Breshaun in your example, simply makes for some fun storytelling.

4 hours ago, Drunknok said:

6. Does a hideout pay any form of upkeep, or is this already included in the initial cost?

No upkeep for a hideout. Once it's built, that's it for cost.

 

[Mesabi]

Well, this is certainly a cool feature, I love the idea, and I think this will add a lot to the game.

Certainly, it's piratey, and fun. 

I have a suggestion though, I'd like to see a TMCRA ability to maybe search an island for hideouts? Setting up an AMCRA is quite intense, and I'm not sure it's the best forum for finding hideouts. 

And I must say, I have one serious gripe with it. 

5 hours ago, Bregir said:

Only Black Flag ships can dock at a hideout

Okay, so great. I don't use black flag ships, nor do I want to, so it looks like this cool feature doesn't work for me at all. I don't want Black Flag ships, and I don't plan on using them, at all, probably ever. However, I'd love for the ability to use these for the WTC to do some privateering on our enemies, and escape to safety from the righteous anger of @Bregir.  

So why don't I just use black flag ships? Well, If I used Black Flag ships, I'd be subject to privateering actions, and essentially would end up attacking everyone, when my list of enemies does not (yet!) include everyone. 

So, this is an excellent feature, but unless something changes, I won't be using it. 

[Capt Wolf]

Just now, Mesabi said:

I'd love for the ability to use these for the WTC to do some privateering on our enemies, and escape to safety from the righteous anger of @Bregir.

What you have described is piracy. Privateering is sanctioned by a government.

Just now, Mesabi said:

If I used Black Flag ships, I'd be subject to privateering actions, and essentially would end up attacking everyone, when my list of enemies does not (yet!) include everyone.

No, you'd only attack those you want. However, you could be attacked by anyone looking to attack lawbreakers (which, of course, is a valid reason for not raising the black).

[Mesabi]

Just now, Capt Wolf said:

What you have described is piracy. Privateering is sanctioned by a government.

I'll clarify a tad. I'd love to use a hideout on an Island, to strike at black flag pirates, because that would be cool. 

Also, the WTC is above piracy, but certainly not many, many other crimes. Side note, would any of your settlements like some opium? First order is free! 

[Bart]

Maybe a hide out within the influence circle of a forttess will automaticaly be found after the 3 turns? 

BTW the FTA holds the Monopoly on opium not the WTC.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Bart

[Bregir]

6 hours ago, Drunknok said:

If a hideout is found by an AMRCA: at what point can that same island be used again for another safe hideout by the same player? Meaning: if such a "rat hunt" is successful, at what point is the island "safe" again for a hideout? 

Any player can have one hideout at a time. If you hideout is discovered, it must be evacuated the coming MRCA. After that, you can establish a new hideout, potentially on the same island. So you could, with the right building effort, keep placing a hideout on the same island. You will have one turn each time it is discovered where you cannot use it as destination (as it will have to be evacuated) but otherwise, you can.

6 hours ago, Drunknok said:

Somewhat related to #4: is there a way to prevent a hideout being set up in some way? I might be missing something, but right now it seems to me as if I could - as an example - set up a hideout next to Breshaun, until an AMRCA soecifically aimed to find it gets lucky, and the next turn I could set it up again

Yes, with the caveat above. I do have a feeling, though, that a hideout just outside Breshaun will be hard to reach without being taken by pirate hunters...

 

2 hours ago, Mesabi said:

I don't want Black Flag ships, and I don't plan on using them, at all, probably ever. However, I'd love for the ability to use these for the WTC to do some privateering on our enemies, and escape to safety from the righteous anger of @Bregir.   

Your only way of escaping my hell fire *is* black flags, though! :P As long as you wish to attack neutral or friendly nations, doing so under the red, white, and black of Corrington will be a highway to the noose! ;)

If you are attacking pirates, I think most ports would be happy to accommodate your ships.

31 minutes ago, Bart said:

Maybe a hide out within the influence circle of a forttess will automaticaly be found after the 3 turns?  

A hideout is already revealed after three turns, regardless of its location (unless its life is prolonged by a build). And figuring out the influence circle of a Fort seems like a lot of hazzle to me :)

 

[Elostirion]

9 hours ago, Bregir said:

If a build showing some aspect of life at the Hideout, of at least 20x20 in size is submitted, it will stay secret for an additional two (2) turns. This can be repeated indefinitely.

May the original MOC be used for this?

So for example I MOC a hideout of 36x36 studs, showing some guys unloading a ship which is anchored there.

Next I remove the ship and the people, add a campfire to the beach and repose the people sitting around the fire, having a rum party. Could I use this to extend it by two (2) turns or would it have to be a totally different scene?

Next I remove the campfire and show some people repairing a boat. Another two (2) turns? And so on.

 

Aside from that I am looking forward to some amazing MOCs - and am looking forward to building such a hideout myself at some point. Lovely idea.

[Bregir]

9 minutes ago, Elostirion said:

May the original MOC be used for this?

I think the key here is that there is "additional building effort" comparable to a new 20x20 moc.

Say you add 10x10 footprint to the hideout and rearrange the rest, then yes. Or build a new hut or watchtower or similar on the existing footprint.

[Darnok]

7 hours ago, Mesabi said:

Okay, so great. I don't use black flag ships, nor do I want to, so it looks like this cool feature doesn't work for me at all. I don't want Black Flag ships, and I don't plan on using them, at all, probably ever. However, I'd love for the ability to use these for the WTC to do some privateering on our enemies, and escape to safety from the righteous anger of @Bregir.  

What you describe is exactly what the Black Flag is made for.

7 hours ago, Mesabi said:

So why don't I just use black flag ships? Well, If I used Black Flag ships, I'd be subject to privateering actions, and essentially would end up attacking everyone, when my list of enemies does not (yet!) include everyone.

You still only attack the ships you select when setting up the TMRCA form. Unless you click all optios, you do not attack everyone. And being able to be picked by others (who have to specifically choose "COR (BF)" as targets) is part of the deal. You can not have your cake and eat it...

[Darnok]

8 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

Because each faction gets a thing they're better at, and for Sea Rats, that's piracy. Given how many problems we've had encouraging piracy in BoBS, and considering this is the Pirates  forum, it's not unreasonable.

As I said: I think this is entirely in character for the faction, and I am not questioning it in that regard. What I start to get annoyed with is that the SR faction got bonus after bonus handed to them lately, with no downsides attached to any of them. Unless the other factions get something similar too - no idea what you have in store for the game, but I would argue against even more faction-specific "special rules" - I just want this to stop. Sea Rats are by now strictly better than the other factions in a lot of fields. If your attempt was to balance them, I call this a classical overkill.

 

6 hours ago, Bregir said:

Any player can have one hideout at a time. If you hideout is discovered, it must be evacuated the coming MRCA. After that, you can establish a new hideout, potentially on the same island. So you could, with the right building effort, keep placing a hideout on the same island. You will have one turn each time it is discovered where you cannot use it as destination (as it will have to be evacuated) but otherwise, you can.

Yes, with the caveat above. I do have a feeling, though, that a hideout just outside Breshaun will be hard to reach without being taken by pirate hunters...

Given this, I feel like an AMRCA is too much of an "investment" to get rid of a hideout. Remember that every player can only have one AMRCA at a time (exceptions apply, like trade companies). To be fair, this could bring a solid in-game "upgrade" to trade companies: since they can start AMRCAs of their own, having anti-hideout ones running parallel to other player ones is a huge benefit.

Still, I think it is a lot of effort for not much of a reward. Even taking trade companies into account, AMRCAs are very limited. When a hideout can simply be set up again after it was found, what is the real benefit for the player searchign for it (apart from some doubloons)? Weigh that against the things you can do (and gain) from a normal AMRCA, and I can not see "hideout hunts" to be very popular options.

[Kwatchi]

The Sea Rats faction have established their first Hideout: Meadow Tickle - 16/12-18

 

 

[Bregir]

The Gentleman Privateer now has a hideout, Cutlass Cay, near ************. 16/12-18

And, the hideout lives on. 31/07-19

Edited July 31, 2019 by Bregir
Added additional build to keep hideout secret

[Kai NRG]

On 12/16/2018 at 11:24 AM, Drunknok said:

Given this, I feel like an AMRCA is too much of an "investment" to get rid of a hideout. Remember that every player can only have one AMRCA at a time (exceptions apply, like trade companies). To be fair, this could bring a solid in-game "upgrade" to trade companies: since they can start AMRCAs of their own, having anti-hideout ones running parallel to other player ones is a huge benefit.

Still, I think it is a lot of effort for not much of a reward. Even taking trade companies into account, AMRCAs are very limited. When a hideout can simply be set up again after it was found, what is the real benefit for the player searchign for it (apart from some doubloons)? Weigh that against the things you can do (and gain) from a normal AMRCA, and I can not see "hideout hunts" to be very popular options.

I agree here, especially given the public nature of an AMRCA which means (it would seem to me) that black flaggers could simply abandon the hideout long before enough AMRCA turns have been taken to find it.

I think ideally a hideout hunt would be a quick, one-two turn find it or don't find it, smash it or don't smash it, proposition.  Of course potentially it could work that way with an AMRCA, but if so I would suggest putting some definite rules down, such as "hideout hunts only last max. two turns" with maybe a 50/50 chance of finding it and then a 40/60 chance of destroying it each turn and throw some MOCs into the bargain (of course that's overly simplified).  Otherwise, given the lengthy nature of AMRCAs, people are likely to shy away from tying up ships in a hunt of this sort.

[Bregir]

12 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

that black flaggers could simply abandon the hideout long before enough AMRCA turns have been taken to find it.

But in that case, you have achieved your goal, haven't you?

13 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

I think ideally a hideout hunt would be a quick, one-two turn find it or don't find it, smash it or don't smash it, proposition.

Start: Decide on an island and start your adventure.

Turn 1: Be presented with options/challenge

Post your response

Turn 2: If there is a hideout, you will have it revealed to you. If so, a 16x16 build will dissolve it.

(And you can then end your adventure or continue your search for more hideouts.)

 

One small vignette to start off your adventure, one response build, and one removal build and you have removed everything someone made at least a 32x32 build and paid to establish, including stealing some of his loot. And it really takes only two turns.

It really can hardly be any less or any faster, if you ask me - at least not if you want people to be willing to invest in a hideout in the first place?

[Kai NRG]

9 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Start: Decide on an island and start your adventure.

Turn 1: Be presented with options/challenge

Post your response

Turn 2: If there is a hideout, you will have it revealed to you. If so, a 16x16 build will dissolve it.

(And you can then end your adventure or continue your search for more hideouts.)

Was that posted somewhere already?  If so, I apologize, I just missed it.  That sounds like a good way to handle it.

13 minutes ago, Bregir said:

But in that case, you have achieved your goal, haven't you?

Well... you might want some DBs or dead pirates for your pains... 

[Roadmonkeytj]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:24 AM, Drunknok said:

As I said: I think this is entirely in character for the faction, and I am not questioning it in that regard. What I start to get annoyed with is that the SR faction got bonus after bonus handed to them lately, with no downsides attached to any of them. Unless the other factions get something similar too - no idea what you have in store for the game, but I would argue against even more faction-specific "special rules" - I just want this to stop. Sea Rats are by now strictly better than the other factions in a lot of fields. If your attempt was to balance them, I call this a classical overkill.

The thing to remember is Black Flag is open to all factions - effectively making the "pirate faction" redundant...  Why not join one of the major three for their benefits and still get to play pirates?    So the rulings may seem "skewed" towards the Sea Rats but it should be this way as the Sea Rats are the pirate faction it is why we joined the pirate faction...  Why should it be just as hard for us to be pirates as the law abiding citizens of other nations?   You were never privy to any of the behind the scenes talks but to give examples without details - I joined the very beginning of 2018, from the very first TMCRA that I participated in through the next 6 turns I had to scramble and explain away IC and out of why my ships shouldn't be taken nor my captains hung (essentially ending my play of the game).  The Sea Rats actually lost several good players over this (we've gained a couple back as a result of these rules).  

All in all the rules for piracy should be skewed to the pirate faction.  They could have said its for pirates only; but then we would loose the awesome stories of pirate's steeling ships with rowboats!  

I do want to thank the committee for taking this in the right direction!

[Darnok]

1 hour ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

The thing to remember is Black Flag is open to all factions - effectively making the "pirate faction" redundant... 

Not at all.

The Black Flag status is available for everybody, that is correct. But Sea Rats gain a lot of boni no other faction gets - some, but not all, related to BF ships. I agree with the opinion that every faction should have some sort of bonus going for them, and this has been handled well with property rules in the past. Apart from that, each faction is defined by its background more than by its rules - as an example, Corrington and Oleon players play by more or less the exact same rules, but still represent a different feeling of the game. Whatever you define a "pirate faction" as: it is still just a different flavour of the same game, something you express by builds and stories. While Sea Rats might want some benefits for "playing pirates", the current situation is taking it way too far.

 

1 hour ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

Why not join one of the major three for their benefits and still get to play pirates?

Right now Sea Rats have the "best" rules.

 

1 hour ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

So the rulings may seem "skewed" towards the Sea Rats but it should be this way as the Sea Rats are the pirate faction it is why we joined the pirate faction...

If Corrington is the nation of science, why are our ships not strictly better than others? Free status points for us!

If Eslandola is all about trade, why should they not get a flat 20% bonus on trade income? Free doubloons for them!

If Oleon is all about faith and gods, why not let them benefit from miracles? One of their ships sank... no it did not, praise the gods!

 

This might come across as a bit harsh, but you are essentially argueing that "my interpretation of the background demands special rules" - and that can swing both ways.

 

1 hour ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

Why should it be just as hard for us to be pirates as the law abiding citizens of other nations? 

Why not?

 

1 hour ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

All in all the rules for piracy should be skewed to the pirate faction.

By that same arguement, other fields of the game should be much more skewed towards other factions. They are not. And I do not wnat them to be. I would appreciate a level playing field for everybody, which we currently do not have.

 

Having said all that: if these rules changes lead to an unbalanced game in favour of Sea Rats, and we get a "Sea of Thieves" environment as a result of that... hohum, I can live with that too!

[Kwatchi]

3 hours ago, Drunknok said:

Right now Sea Rats have the "best" rules.

From the December account page - faction balances:

Corrington: 19,627 Dbs  / 12 licensed ships
Eslandola: 35,594 Dbs / 10 licensed ships
Oleon: 63,775 Dbs / 19 licensed ships
Sea Rats: 7,554 Dbs / 6 licensed ships

Yep.  We're obviously overpowered and dominating things.

I'm sorry but there is now actual danger when sailing your trade ships - i.e. player pirates are actively hunting you.   It makes the game more challenging and fun.  But If that is not your cup of tea, there are other EB games.

 

[Darnok]

Just now, Kwatchi said:

From the December account page - faction balances:

Corrington: 19,627 Dbs  / 12 licensed ships
Eslandola: 35,594 Dbs / 10 licensed ships
Oleon: 63,775 Dbs / 19 licensed ships
Sea Rats: 7,554 Dbs / 6 licensed ships

Yep.  We're obviously overpowered and dominating things.

Yeah sure, quote things that are results of the past to argue for changes that were made in the last weeks. Also, only selectively quote statistics to support your point.

 

Either discuss honestly, or do not bother...

[Bregir]

Please keep it constructive and polite. @Drunknok you have made your position clear, and some of the Sea Rats have argued why they think these advantages are justified. Calling anyone dishonest or being sarcastic is not helping our community at all.

Same goes for all: either discuss constructively and politely, or do not discuss at all.

We have made changes in the last few months to encourage piracy from both Sea Rats and others, to make the tMRCA less of a logistics simulator, and more of a piratey experience. So these changes are meant to improve the game experience for all.

In this latest bout of rules, there are 2 things in favour of the sea rats: 1) cheaper hideouts and 2) two free hideouts with smaller build requirements. The rules allow everyone to set up a hideout, but the Sea Rats, the main pirate faction, have some extra encouragement.

In the future, as we revisit other rules, or identify other challenges we need to address, similar advantages may be given to other factions or groups of players (could for instance be religion-related for OL). But we will NOT let a necessity for millimetre "justice" stand in the way of what we believe are good additions to the game. And we are willing to "unbalance" the game momentarily or permanently to the extent we deem it necessary to achieve certain goals, and are likely to do so again in the future. Should the balance prove to be off, we will revisit these things.