CSW652

Are the Creator Expert trains finished?

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, PeteM said:

Regarding sales - I’m not sure that the recent Roller Coaster Set will sell in massive quantities, probably less than the EN did, but expectations seem to be higher for trains for some reason... Not every set needs to be a blockbuster to justify its existence, but having ‘done’ trains now (one steam, one diesel, one electric) sales aren’t the only factor - I would think that novelty and innovation in the product line is just as important to the bods at Lego HQ...

That is a much more expensive set which is expected to sell less sets in the first place, and is made, in part because they created some new parts and are trying to get as much use out of them as possible to pay for the new moldings. There's been half a dozen rollercoster sets in different themes and price ranges over the last year, plus creative uses of some of the pieces like the Speed Champions set that used 2 curved coaster rails as an arch over the track.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be curious to see how "add on" sets for the current trains would do...  So right now you buy an engine and two or three cars.

With the add on you buy another set of cars for the train at a price minus the cost of the engine.

I'm not saying it would save the train industry but just in what I've heard at shows...  Most Lego users "can't" MOC...  That is they feel their brain can not create without a set of instructions in front of them. 

I feel that's why the "complete" sets sold better because it told them what to do 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been looking back at the 12V trains and have come to the conclusion that "add-on" sets don't do very well. The only people that will buy them are those that already have a train set. With for example the police theme, you can buy a small police set, you don't need to have bought a police station to add to it.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

I would be curious to see how "add on" sets for the current trains would do...  So right now you buy an engine and two or three cars.

With the add on you buy another set of cars for the train at a price minus the cost of the engine.

I'm not saying it would save the train industry but just in what I've heard at shows...  Most Lego users "can't" MOC...  That is they feel their brain can not create without a set of instructions in front of them. 

I feel that's why the "complete" sets sold better because it told them what to do 

Complete ready to run train set is the least amount of effort and time to get up and playing.  Who really wants to spend time buying separate components and figuring how to work together?   Why buy individual ingredients at the supermarket to make Christmas dinner, when you can buy a complete ready made Christmas dinner at the same store?  Bring home, re-heat and be done.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps the solution is to do away with the perception of having to have the track.

The Harry potter train can run on Lego rails, but it's perfectly fine as a pull along the floor train too. Maybe we need more sets like that, then those who already have track or chose to start buying it, can use it on the track, those who don't, never feel the the need to buy stuff they don't want or can't afford.
Also, while stand alone rolling stock is a none starter, there's nothing stopping Lego making sets that can be applied to rail uses (they kind of already do with stuff like the freight transfer sets.
They could do a 'transit station', with a small tram, but no track, which can (if you want) have the track added and be used as an actual railway station (I notice they've not released a railway station with this round of train sets).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding production capacity: Just look at their recent catalogues and behold the abundance of licensed sets and other stuff that gets regularly clearance sales at our local TRU and other toy shops (*cough* constructible star wars figures *cough*)... Just remove 1 or 2 of those and instead go for 1 or 2 supplemental train sets, whatever it might be.

 

Regarding sets with out tracks: If LEGO would really want to sell rails / tracks seperate, they would need to make better packages forehand. Like the ones we had during 9V times - straights, and only straights, in their packaging and curves in a seperate one. Then that idea might turn out fine.

Edited by Capparezza

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Capparezza said:

Regarding sets with out tracks: If LEGO would really want to sell rails / tracks seperate, they would need to make better packages forehand. Like the ones we had during 9V times - straights, and only straights, in their packaging and curves in a seperate one. Then that idea might turn out fine.

That's a real problem (for AFOLS at least), but I'm not sure it's that much of the problem with kids, because the full trainsets provide enough track for the needs of the average kid once you have a couple (especially if you get a couple of freight sets). What I'm thinking is remove the necessity of having to have track at all, if the kid wants a train they can pull along the floor (like how the latest Hogwarts express is designed) they can, if they want to add it to track they already have, they can do that too.

Edited by Redimus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing against doing away with rails at all. We had such sets in the 12V era and before, so I do not see an apparent issue with this idea. If it helps promoting train sets I'm OK with it :classic:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice if the next CE train came with a box of straights for ‘display’ purposes!

But tbh, the WV train could have been about 10-20 usd cheaper sans that circle of track...

 

I personally feel that the current freight set is a half-step in the right direction... but TLG missed an opportunity to bundle it with the 60169 Cargo Terminal set. Although 300 usd for a now complete freight set is... definitely a tall order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/15/2018 at 1:16 PM, Redimus said:

Perhaps the solution is to do away with the perception of having to have the track.

The Harry potter train can run on Lego rails, but it's perfectly fine as a pull along the floor train too. Maybe we need more sets like that, then those who already have track or chose to start buying it, can use it on the track, those who don't, never feel the the need to buy stuff they don't want or can't afford.
Also, while stand alone rolling stock is a none starter, there's nothing stopping Lego making sets that can be applied to rail uses (they kind of already do with stuff like the freight transfer sets.
They could do a 'transit station', with a small tram, but no track, which can (if you want) have the track added and be used as an actual railway station (I notice they've not released a railway station with this round of train sets).

As far as the Creator Expert trains go, that's usually how they ARE designed (with Power Functions and track separately). That said, the inclusion of a full circuit of track (albeit without Power Functions) might be another factor besides the holiday/Winter Village branding in it selling better than past Creator Expert trains.

On 12/15/2018 at 9:13 AM, Roadmonkeytj said:

I'm not saying it would save the train industry but just in what I've heard at shows...  Most Lego users "can't" MOC...  That is they feel their brain can not create without a set of instructions in front of them.

This is true to an extent, but I wouldn't attribute it to a personality trait or frame of mind, when a bigger part of it is that complete sets are what TEACH kids and adults the kinds of things they need for a model to do the things they want it to. That includes building techniques, knowing how many track pieces you need for a full circuit, knowing how much weight a single train motor can pull, etc.

I would not be able to MOC anything even half as impressive as my best work if I hadn't built enough sets for the necessary techniques and sense of what parts can be used for what purposes to come naturally to me. So ultimately, building instructions are as much a teaching tool as they are a recipe/road map for that specific model. It should be no surprise that a lot of people seeing amazing models online or at LEGOLAND will think the same thing as seeing an amazing work of art without learning the requisite skills: "There's no way I could build something like that". But with a set, the building instructions give the pictures on the box a sense of certainty that "you CAN build something like this, and here's how!"

On 12/15/2018 at 3:15 PM, Capparezza said:

Regarding production capacity: Just look at their recent catalogues and behold the abundance of licensed sets and other stuff that gets regularly clearance sales at our local TRU and other toy shops (*cough* constructible star wars figures *cough*)... Just remove 1 or 2 of those and instead go for 1 or 2 supplemental train sets, whatever it might be.

First of all, clearance sales are rarely a reliable indication of what sets or themes aren't meeting expectations. I've seen people try and assert the failure of everything from Ninjago to Friends to Nexo Knights based on what they saw on clearance and it was rarely an accurate reflection of whether those themes were successful or not.

Second, there's market segmentation to consider. Even if things like the Star Wars buildable figures don't sell that well, they can still have more value to LEGO than more sets in a more reliably popular theme like City or Ninjago — so long as they appeal primarily to an audience that isn't as drawn to other sets/themes, and thus add to the company's net revenue, instead of appealing to an audience that would have spent the same amount of money on LEGO anyhow whether you put out new train cars and track packs or not.

In fact, that market segmentation factor is probably one of the LEGO Group's main incentives for continuing to invest in train sets at all, instead of stuff that they know sells in greater numbers. Because there ARE people who might be way more interested in trains than any other sets, just as there are people who might be way more interested in action figures than any other sets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I figure City sets (where the Trains currently sold are in), are just being sold as a whole for ease.

Even big playsets like Capital City kinda fall into that all-in-one style.

 

But I do think they did move too far away from small sets on some aspects of City. (no starter packs for winter 2019 is strange)

While themes like Xtra remedy some of it, that theme is still really new and limited right now.

 

It's been literally forever since they sold any small Train sets , pretty much the My Own train series was still during the 9V era, and limited retail.

I suppose the biggest plus at least is that the Train motors and rails remained compatible (brick wise) from the 9V times. They just don't sell the Powered up parts seperate yet.

Not sure if the lack of a proper 2018 station is affected by the 2016/2017 Winter Train/Station. Or even Harry Potter.

 

I have no experience with Power functions or Powered up, but at least they did make a new Train this year after 4 years, and still seem to follow the cycle of City-Trains in 2006-2010-2014-2018. 

As for Creator Expert trains, looking back (from a 2001-2015 Dark Age perspective) the Horizon Express looked pretty cool, but even if it was still sold now, still would need 2 of them to look good imo, and the Emerald Night/Maersk trains could certainly have used some extra seperate train cars.

Edited by TeriXeri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/15/2018 at 8:11 AM, PeteM said:

Regarding extra rolling stock - I imagine it’s more an issue of production capacity than anything else. Lego could have made available the two bags of parts needed for the middle carriage for 60051 as, say, an online exclusive (advertised in the instructions for the main set) without extraneous packaging etc and I imagine it would do moderately well.

Or

They could use the factory production capacity this would take for another City set, which would sell in far greater quantities in multiple retailers and have a far greater return.

Five or so years ago when I was an active lego ambassador, they did mention a concern about not having too many SKU's, which is why the number of sets was limited. Never made complete sense to me if they had limited runs of DTC (now Creator Expert) that they would sell on-line only and could just sell a small run until it sold out, but that is likely do to their logistics being less than perfect (I hear tails that their logistics in the warehouses still is not cutting edge, but those may be second hand rumors). If/when lego gets to the point where they can warehouse a small batch item and have a robot retrieve it in three years we might see a flood of cool sets for smaller market niches. I think that is part of what the Ideas project is about, learning what might sell in smaller quantities.

In any event, if you can't keep the shelves stocked with the massively produced sets, it makes sense to not worry too much about the niches.

Lego isn't foolish either, I'm sure part of the reason why trains are alive is because they know AFOL's will part the sets out for the train components and then the $100-$1000+ train layout becomes the foreground for an even more expensive city/town/whathaveyou

 

 

On 12/15/2018 at 3:15 PM, Capparezza said:

Regarding production capacity: Just look at their recent catalogues and behold the abundance of licensed sets and other stuff that gets regularly clearance sales at our local TRU and other toy shops (*cough* constructible star wars figures *cough*)... Just remove 1 or 2 of those and instead go for 1 or 2 supplemental train sets, whatever it might be.

 

Regarding sets with out tracks: If LEGO would really want to sell rails / tracks seperate, they would need to make better packages forehand. Like the ones we had during 9V times - straights, and only straights, in their packaging and curves in a seperate one. Then that idea might turn out fine.

The 12v era was a dream, but looking back at the sets from the 1990's, those were a nice selection of 2-3 sets per year (including several trains without track)

In fact the last of the 9v era were all single item sets BNSF, high speed locomotive (presumably the latter to turn the half high speed train from the previous year in to a full train), and the matching high speed passenger car (for those wanting a longer train) in 2004. Then the double stack in 2005, and the holiday train (without track) in 2006.

As for the selection of track, that is kind of dumb. I had also heard that the mold for the 9v track did both straight and curves, and that lego never understood that they should make more straight than they did curved track. Sigh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

They just don't sell the Powered up parts seperate yet.

The PUP (???) or Powered Up Parts are sold seperately now, they have been added to their shop a few days ago. Just search by part numbers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Capparezza said:

The PUP (???) or Powered Up Parts are sold seperately now, they have been added to their shop a few days ago. Just search by part numbers.

As far as Shop@home goes, I just see the older Power Functions parts there. (example is the Power functions motor set 88002, which is as old as 2013)

The only 2018 directly sold part is a LED light kit.

You mean bricks and pieces? (Closed atm)

I see the 2018 powered up motor on Bricks and pieces as sold out (MOTOR, NO. 4 , element 6214559, design 28740)

Edited by TeriXeri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Capparezza said:

Yes, bricks and pieces. They just got inventoried shortly before they closed down. Very nifty :D

Yeah ok, I imagine, sold out is still better then completely hidden.

I figure, eventually 2018 parts will show up on the official menu to replace the 2013/2014 system.

Edited by TeriXeri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/15/2018 at 1:12 PM, dr_spock said:

Complete ready to run train set is the least amount of effort and time to get up and playing.  Who really wants to spend time buying separate components and figuring how to work together?   Why buy individual ingredients at the supermarket to make Christmas dinner, when you can buy a complete ready made Christmas dinner at the same store?  Bring home, re-heat and be done.

 

Yes, I just wish they'd step outside of the cycle of city passenger train, city cargo train, and do something more "traditional," like a steam train.  Now, the WV train is actually pretty nice, as is Hogwarts Express, but an old-timey set like Bachmann General or Durango Silverton as a "real" set would be nice.

18 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Second, there's market segmentation to consider. Even if things like the Star Wars buildable figures don't sell that well, they can still have more value to LEGO than more sets in a more reliably popular theme like City or Ninjago — so long as they appeal primarily to an audience that isn't as drawn to other sets/themes, and thus add to the company's net revenue, instead of appealing to an audience that would have spent the same amount of money on LEGO anyhow whether you put out new train cars and track packs or not.

It's what I've been saying - it's not about making a profit, it's about maximizing profit.  People are like "I know MOT could make a profit" (I'm one of them - it could make a profit), but if constractions are cheap to make, and they can ship a lot of them, and they are really popular, they can make a higher margin and overall profit, even if they ultimately made too many and have to use clearance sales to move the remaining ones.  Having so few parts they use fewer molds and are simply easier to make and package.

16 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

It's been literally forever since they sold any small Train sets , pretty much the My Own train series was still during the 9V era, and limited retail.

I suppose the biggest plus at least is that the Train motors and rails remained compatible (brick wise) from the 9V times. They just don't sell the Powered up parts seperate yet.

Not sure if the lack of a proper 2018 station is affected by the 2016/2017 Winter Train/Station. Or even Harry Potter.

I agree - the WV Train was actually a "small" set, but it's Christmas - not really anything like 4534 ("LEGO Express") or 4535 (Express Deluxe).  These appeal to LEGO fans, but also Rail Fans - I was into N-Gauge before I "discovered" LEGO 9V - that TLG actually made trains the way traditional model railroading worked.  Having young kids at the time, I jumped on it and fully switched to 9V - just before they pulled the plug.

But they can still appeal to Rail Fans with a nice enough set, and like @Aanchir mentioned, it becomes a gateway for people to build entire cities for their layouts.  If it hadn't been for LEGO trains, I wouldn't have bought every modular building and a whole lot more - thousands of dollars just on modulars, and thousands of dollars on other train sets, tracks, MOT, and Creator Expert trains, as well as a lot of the "other" themed trains because I actually preferred them over the city trains they've been releasing since the switch to PF - Toy Story (because it was fun - yes, I even motorized it), all of the Hogwarts Express sets, The Lone Ranger Constitution Train chase (this is actually, IMO, the best "small" train set they've ever released - I would point to the 9V Express, but with the addition of the large train wheels, the newer ones actually look more authentic).

Ultimately, though, we just need to understand and accept the fact that TLG actually really only cares about profit (well... mostly, and I support the free market, so I accept I won't always get what I want), and they do throw out a "gimme" every once in a while to keep people like me interested, but they mostly string us along in the hopes we'll get something good, and then we'll eat up whatever they feel like releasing because we hadn't had anything decent in so long.  I think the train fans that work for LEGO know this, and put a lot of effort into the themed ones (like what I mentioned) because they serve the dual purpose of serving the licensed theme as well as giving us train fans something.

As far as MOCing goes, TLG has abandoned making MOCing something like trains easy.  There are no "train parts" sets; buying the parts separately becomes tedious and expensive, and yes, not all of us are all that creative - they could just post some instructions online, along with selling some basic train packs; then again, I wish they sold "castle" packs of grays, too, or "builders packs" with a pile of masonry bricks.  They love that we show off amazing MOCs, it's great publicity for them - but they don't make it easy.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, fred67 said:

As far as MOCing goes, TLG has abandoned making MOCing something like trains easy.  There are no "train parts" sets; buying the parts separately becomes tedious and expensive, and yes, not all of us are all that creative - they could just post some instructions online, along with selling some basic train packs; then again, I wish they sold "castle" packs of grays, too, or "builders packs" with a pile of masonry bricks.  They love that we show off amazing MOCs, it's great publicity for them - but they don't make it easy.

The Xtra theme was a small step forward in that regard, however it's still nowhere near the scale from the parts packs the old "Service" Catalogs showed.

My country has no Pick a Brick stores either, so no massing single parts as of now.

Edited by TeriXeri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TeriXeri, exactly.  PAB is not a substitute for a "trains" pack - it's tedious and expensive and, yes, you might end up with parts you don't need, but that's how most of the creative boxes work anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Redimus said:

There is literally no reason at all to use PAB while Bricklink exists.

PAB is often cheaper. It is worth to compare ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps, but you then need to rely on either Lego selling *exactly the bits you want (*never happens*) or you having the clairvoyance to know what you will and won't need months in advance of when you'll need it (a knack I've never successfully cultivated). All this for stuff that *might* be a little cheaper... maybe....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what you're getting at - PAB has a wider selection and greater quantities than nearly any bricklink store.  It also typically carries a premium price, but there are plenty of times I needed something in quantity that would have ridiculously expensive on Bricklink because people with quantity often charge more.

My wanted lists on Bricklink total 91 different parts; the greatest match when I click on "buy" and select everything is 29.  That's less than a third of what I have on my wanted lists - and the store with the most matches is one of the most expensive stores on bricklink.

Granted, there are maybe a dozen pretty rare parts, and three or four old sets that most are not likely to have, but I'd have to order from a half dozen different stores to get everything else, and then you get killed on shipping and yes, often not great prices.

So here's the thing - if I need one or two of a specific part, it's almost a no-brainer to go to Bricklink; if I need a lot of parts that aren't available on PAB, it's a no-brainer to go to bricklink (to complete old sets, with old minifigure parts, etc.), but if I need a lot of something, or a lot of several different parts that are current, it's often a lot cheaper to go to PAB.  As far as shipping goes, I've gotten some of the worst shippers lately.  5 out of my last 6 orders took two weeks to arrive (I even ended up leaving a neutral - the first one I ever left, because it took nearly two weeks for the seller to even put it in the mail), so it's entirely hit and miss.

I do "favorite" good sellers, and "dislike" slow and expensive stores, but there are a LOT of stores, so that only goes so far.

Don't get me wrong - my first choice is bricklink, but sellers on bricklink don't sell reasonably priced "train" packs, either.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bricklink is the last place I would go.   My first is Pick A Brick Wall.   Then PAB S&H online, order enough and it's free shipping.  With a limited budget, I'd like to avoid shipping costs at all costs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all due respect - let me know when you find train wheel sets, bases, and couplers on the PAB wall.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.