Do kids today like Classic Space?

[anothergol]

4 hours ago, WesternOutlaw said:

 Timmy may like them, but Mom & Dad are the ones that opt to buy these big boys

They also buy the small toys anyway.

Which reminds me that there's a french company, Studio 100, that bought some of the forgotten shows of my childhood. Namely Maya the Bee, Heidi (probably in the public domain though) & Vic the Viking, which were only remembered in some part of germany I believe.
But it wasn't to air the originals (which have aged pretty badly), nor to reuse scenarios at all, it's just for the characters, which have nothing very interesting (well Vic the Viking is still a nice concept). And they remade them all in 3D.
It makes sense, it's also parents (the ones who care) who decide what to put their kids in front of, and when it's stuff from their own youth, they know it's "safe". Or they wanna show their kids the shows they were watching when they were young. Even Super Mario is advertised as inter-generational. For these 2 reasons, I can imagine fathers buying Bennies to their kids.

Edited November 30, 2018 by anothergol

[Aanchir]

13 hours ago, WesternOutlaw said:

I always enjoy reading topics/questions of this kind.  In my opinion, not negating the desire for LEGO to appeal to the kiddies, I think it's not that important.  There are enough of us AFOL to go out and purchase a theme/series of sets that we enjoy.  Take for example Star Wars, who is LEGO's market for classic SW sets?  Sure, the younger audience can certainly relate to the recent movies, but who ends up forking out $200-$500 for a large LEGO Star Wars set.  Timmy may like them, but Mom & Dad are the ones that opt to buy these big boys that take more space in the living room aside the three game systems.

I see this argument a lot and I think it's kind of misleading, for three reasons:

1. Smaller and more kid-appropriate Star Wars sets vastly outnumber the massive adult-targeted exclusives. If you add up all the price points of the 2018 Star Wars sets, the UCS Y-Wing and MBS Cloud City (both ages 14+, so adults aren't necessarily even just buying them for themselves or for other adults) cost about $550 USD total. The other sets (recommended for ages 9–14 at the highest and ages 6–12 at the lowest) cost about $1,755 USD — meaning that if the same quantity of every set is produced and purchased, LEGO makes over three times more money on the 2018 Star Wars sets intended for kids to enjoy than the ones that are specifically aimed at teens and adults.
    
2. AND YET, it's well known that smaller, more affordable, and more kid-appropriate sets from any theme tend to be bought in MUCH larger quantities than adult-targeted exclusives. This one shouldn't be surprising, of course. Besides the fact that kids are a much bigger audience for toys in general and even for Star Wars toys in particular (no matter who does the buying) than adults (and have been since the first Star Wars toys were released), plenty of kid-targeted Star Wars sets also appeal to a secondary audience of adult Star Wars fans, particularly those who don't want to or can't afford to drop $200 or more on a single toy.
    
3. Not all adults who buy or build LEGO sets (including LEGO Star Wars sets) for their own enjoyment think of themselves as AFOLs or are part of AFOL groups, fansites, and events/gatherings. In fact, not all of those adults even grew up playing with LEGO, let alone with classic LEGO Space sets from the 80s. This should be particularly obvious since at this point in time, there is a thirteen year gap between the year that the last new Classic Space sets were released and the year today's youngest AFOLs were born. And since the Star Wars franchise began earlier, continued later, and achieved much greater heights of global popularity than LEGO Classic Space ever did, it's unquestionable that for the vast majority of adults, Star Wars was much more likely to have been an important part of their childhood than classic LEGO Space was.

The idea that "adults have more money to buy sets, and LEGO makes lots of expensive sets specifically for adults, therefore there should be plenty of sales potential for an entire theme/series catered specifically to a particular subset of nostalgic adults" falls to pieces when you account for these factors. There's a reason why even most existing older-skewing LEGO themes and subthemes like Creator Expert, Star Wars UCS/MBS, Ideas, Architecture, and Mindstorms invariably have so many fewer new products per year than typical kid-targeted themes.

[danth]

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

There's a reason why even most existing older-skewing LEGO themes and subthemes like Creator Expert, Star Wars UCS/MBS, Ideas, Architecture, and Mindstorms invariably have so many fewer new products per year than typical kid-targeted themes.

Wow, when you say it like that, it sure sounds like there are a ton of adult oriented sets released every year! 

Honestly I think a once-a-year Classic Space and Classic Castle themed Creator Expert set is an absolute sure seller. You've got nostalgic adults in their prime earning years, Star Wars fatigue (and general license fatigue I think), and no traditional medieval/fantasy sets available. Plus the 40th anniversary to kick things off if they launch them soon.

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, danth said:

Wow, when you say it like that, it sure sounds like there are a ton of adult oriented sets released every year! 

Honestly I think a once-a-year Classic Space and Classic Castle themed Creator Expert set is an absolute sure seller. You've got nostalgic adults in their prime earning years, Star Wars fatigue (and general license fatigue I think), and no traditional medieval/fantasy sets available. Plus the 40th anniversary to kick things off if they launch them soon.

If LEGO starts noticing Star Wars fatigue, I think their first response will be less Star Wars stuff, rather than immediately putting more Space stuff out there. My feeling is that for right now, the popularity of LEGO Star Wars and licensed themes as a whole is still reasonably stable, probably more so than back during the Star Wars prequel trilogy years when LEGO wasn't as careful about making sure the emphasis on each of their bigger licenses stayed in sync with whether there were new movies out to keep them on people's radar.

But I agree that the chance of a Space or Classic Space D2C/Creator Expert set happening and being successful (ideally, even enough to get follow-ups in subsequent years) would be a lot stronger today than it used to be, albeit for a different reason: ten years ago there were usually one or two big, expensive Star Wars exclusives per year but also somewhat less general interest in/demand for LEGO. Today interest for LEGO in general has grown, and LEGO's responded with more stuff targeted at both kids and AFOLs — yet the number of adult-targeted Star Wars exclusives per year has stayed pretty close to the same as ever.

My post was more about how unlikely it'd be for LEGO to launch a whole theme or wave of sets geared specifically towards nostalgia for one 1980s LEGO theme/faction (ANY 1980s LEGO theme/faction), which I think would be way trickier than stand-alone sets. Even with sets geared towards less LEGO-specific forms of 80s nostalgia fuel (like Voltron, Back to the Future, Ghostbusters, etc), LEGO usually doesn't release more than one or two new sets per year based on the same IP.

To do much more than a few stand-alone sets would usually require some new "hook" to help kids relate to that brand in a more immediate, individual sense, like a movie sequel/reboot (as tends to be the impetus for themes like LEGO Star Wars and LEGO Indiana Jones) or media like The LEGO Movie and LEGO Dimensions that expressly ties stuff created decades before today's kids' time together with the kind of stuff many of them enjoy currently.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Aanchir

[WesternOutlaw]

22 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I see this argument a lot and I think it's kind of misleading, for three reasons:...

The idea that "adults have more money to buy sets, and LEGO makes lots of expensive sets specifically for adults, therefore there should be plenty of sales potential for an entire theme/series catered specifically to a particular subset of nostalgic adults" falls to pieces when you account for these factors. There's a reason why even most existing older-skewing LEGO themes and subthemes like Creator Expert, Star Wars UCS/MBS, Ideas, Architecture, and Mindstorms invariably have so many fewer new products per year than typical kid-targeted themes.

As I read through your comments in this topic, Aanchir, I can see that you're pretty passionate about the subject.  No intent to "mislead" anyone, simply my opinion.

Completely disagree with your statement above.  Just the fact that the themes you mention continue to flourish despite some believing LEGO should only focus on the kiddie market "holds those pieces together".  I believe LEGO has only begun to tap the adult market and as more kiddies replace building LEGO at their friend's house with online video-gaming, the adult market will continue to grow in both revenue and level of importance.  The adult market should not be underestimated, especially when many of us have purchased and ended up building the sets on Timmy's wish list.

In any case, I appreciate you sharing your comments in which you make some good points.  

Long Live Classic Space, even for those that don't remember building a brand new Galaxy Explorer on Christmas Day. 

 

  

[Peppermint_M]

Okay, to also "rip-off" Star Wars (a bit easy considering the work itself was a trope fest created off of the ancient "Hero's Journey" archetype) can we Stay On Target about this thread? 

It is not for debating the points of an animated cartoon (I campaigned hard enough for a media forum, go there to hammer it out!) or arguing about what constitutes a rip off.

Thank you.

[x105Black]

I think kids would like Classic Space if they were presented with such a theme.  I'd love to see an updated version of the concept, myself.  I love the classic torsos, the new classic helmets, the air tanks, and all the other throwback or vintage stuff.  That said, they could easily update Classic Space in much the same way as that image in the post above.  Take this, for instance:





If they would do updates like these for all of the various colors of Classic Space minifigures, I think it would be fantastic.  I'd personally prefer them to use the classic helmets and the air tanks for the "Space Suits" and such.  I'd also like to see the classic torsos stay around as shirts for when they are inside the space stations and vehicles.

Basically, what I want to see is an updated Space theme that keeps the spirit of Classic Space alive with the themes, color schemes, and logos that evoke the simplicity and nostalgia of the Classic Space theme.  I think kids would respond to that.  Throw in some inspiration from (or updates of) Futuron, Blacktron, M-Tron, and Spyrius over a few years of the theme's lifespan, and I think it could do really well.  I think the themes and designs of old, while outdated, still hold up today and can be updated in a way that appeals to kids while still being appreciated by AFOLs.

I have to give TLG credit, though.  2 of the above are from the Collectible Minifigures series, and there are other updates of Space minifigures in the CMF series as well.  There are some great Blacktron updates to be found there.  Those minifigures are great teasers, but it would be fantastic to see them all come in wave after wave of sets in one unified Updated Space theme.

[danth]

38 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Broken image link. I really want to see what you were comparing this to! Interest piqued. 

Oh, was it the red Galaxy Squad guy?

[x105Black]

It was a guy wearing this:



All of the images I used had the Classic Space logo on them, which I think is an important part of keeping that feel.  Here is the red Galaxy Squad guy:



Now imagine that one of the logos on his chest was the Classic Space logo.  That makes it much more appealing, doesn't it?

I do like how Galaxy Squad made different colored suits, I think that's a big component of Classic Space that people liked.  And I like how they used grey torsos and switched the arms.  Presumably a cost-saving measure.  I also like how they incorporated android-like robot minifigures.  I'd love to see some more of that, along with the conventional brick-based robots.  Here's a bit of LEGO robot evolution:



In the minifigure series, they made good use of robots as well:



One is even a Blacktron robot!

[Wesley D]

I think the classic space minifigures look fantastic and timeless, but the classic space ships look outdated. With newer parts and techniques there are more attractive designs possible, without abandoning the colors, style and atmosphere that are typical for classic space.

[Digger of Bricks]

This was posted over on Brickset a few weeks ago back on the 20th, but I thought I'd be worth sharing here. While the article itself doesn't really delve too deep into the question it poses, everyone else's thoughts shared there were quite interesting to read...

Brickset - Should Classic Space Return?

[Henchmen4Hire]

I don't think Classic Space is timeless, more like ugly, outdated, etc.

I had some early Space and Boat sets as a kid, and looking at them now, I don't have any nostalgia, especially not with the cool designs out now.

(By the way, where are all the kids nostalgic for Classic Boats?)

As far as kids go, there are people who dedicate their lives to understanding what kids want and even they still have difficulty finding an answer, so I won't pretend to know haha.

[Toastie]

On 8/9/2019 at 5:53 AM, Henchmen4Hire said:

As far as kids go, there are people who dedicate their lives to understanding what kids want and even they still have difficulty finding an answer

... because they are from the past - or in another word - adults. Never knowing - but guessing, interpreting, projecting, hoping, trying, imagine, "measuring" - what kids want.

Very nicely phrased @Henchmen4Hire!

All the best,
Thorsten

 

[Gomek]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:39 PM, anothergol said:

The one I can't stand is Nexo Knights (maybe also because I consider it guilty of having killed the Castles theme)

This. And while I'm not entirely sure the concept of 'Space Knights' was new when Stars Wars did it in the late 70s, I can 100% tell you Space Knights is a dead beaten horse 40 years later.

[Digger of Bricks]

3 hours ago, Gomek said:

On 11/28/2018 at 12:39 PM, anothergol said:

The one I can't stand is Nexo Knights (maybe also because I consider it guilty of having killed the Castles theme)

This. And while I'm not entirely sure the concept of 'Space Knights' was new when Stars Wars did it in the late 70s, I can 100% tell you Space Knights is a dead beaten horse 40 years later.

Eh, I still want a true in-house "Space Knights" theme myself, something I feel Nexo Knights just could've been if it weren't for Star Wars. 

[Gomek]

12 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Eh, I still want a true in-house "Space Knights" theme myself, something I feel Nexo Knights just could've been if it weren't for Star Wars. 

Star Wars at least put a fresh spin on the space knights concept, as well as the serial concept while not being heavy handed about it. I just think that there are a lot of things Lego could do with Castle and Space themes that don't involve an in-your-face mash-up.

I'd even love a few small retro/50s space style sets (under $30) but that's also the type of thing I think Nexo Knights was blocking.

[hagridshut]

On 8/8/2019 at 11:53 PM, Henchmen4Hire said:

I don't think Classic Space is timeless, more like ugly, outdated, etc.

When referring to "Classic Space", do people mean the mostly gray, blue, and trans-yellow sets from roughly 1976-1986 with original astronaut figures, or do people also include the follow on space themes that followed for roughly the next 10-15 years (Futuron, Blactron, Space Police, M:Tron, Ice Planet, etc.)? 

Some of the 1976-1986 space sets are ugly, but there are many sleek and timeless designs.  The Type 918 Space Transport and its larger family members, the 924 and 928, still look great to me.  Larger sets like the Cosmic Fleet Voyager and Intergalactic Command Base hold up well too.

Several years ago, I managed to re-assemble some of my old Blacktron, M:Tron and Ice Planet sets out of my containers of loose bricks.  There's still a magical quality to the details and creative features in these builds.  For example, the M:Tron Particle Ionizer manages to fit a nifty magnetic crane, central cargo compartment with droid, and rotating sensor/antennae assembly into a relatively compact but swooshable build.  My all time favorite from the Ice Planet series, the Blizzard Baron, is even smaller, but still has modular components and cool items, like a detachable sensor dish section, and skis and orange chainsaw for the minifigure to use.  The torso printing and helmet visor with antenna are charming. 

A younger Lego fan whom I showed some of these sets to, thought they were actually better than many of the themed sets from the past 15 years.  An X-Wing is pretty much an X-Wing in terms of general looks and functionality.  There aren't a lot of surprises in a TIE fighter.  

While I don't actually know if the old style of space sets (1976-2001) would sell well today, I think the magic is still there.  I think that for some kids, the fun, unexpected features and ability to create their own stories mostly free of preexisting narrative, is a plus.  

[icm]

Generally what is meant by "Classic Space" is the Space sets released between 1978 and 1987 in which the minifigures have old-style helmets without visors and their torsos are only decorated with a single Classic Space logo (the logo that appeared beginning in 1978) at about chest height.  You can find a comprehensive listing of those kits on Brickset.  Among those, some are more "classic" or well-remembered than others.  Generally the earliest sets in that line, specifically the 1978-1979 releases, are remembered much more fondly than the later sets.  The fan community's regard for Classic Space kits seems to decrease pretty monotonically as the release year increases.  More generally, other waves are remembered as "classic" Space but not "Classic Space."  That is, many of the Blacktron, M:Tron, and Ice Planet sets are regarded as classic Space kits, but they aren't Classic Space specifically.  The 1978-1987 sets earn the specific sobriquet of Classic in all databases because it was only with Futuron and Blacktron in 1987 that Lego began to specifically name new subthemes instead of simply categorizing them as "Space" in the catalogs.  So what do you call the earlier sets?  Well, they're the ones that started it all, so they get called "Classic" in the catalogs.  As younger fans pass the age of majority and enter the adult fan community online, you see newer and newer sets being called "classic" in online discussions.  For example, the Mars Mission sets from 2007-2008 are often called "classics" by those who grew up with them.

TLDR - Specifically, "Classic Space" is just the 1978-1987 kits and, if you stretch a point, the kits from The Lego Movie 1 and 2 that pay homage to those with the character of Benny.  Generally, "classic" Space kits are anything you liked as a kid.

[Digger of Bricks]

22 hours ago, Gomek said:

Star Wars at least put a fresh spin on the space knights concept, as well as the serial concept while not being heavy handed about it. I just think that there are a lot of things Lego could do with Castle and Space themes that don't involve an in-your-face mash-up.

Well, there's only so much Lego can do with Star Wars since they haven't creative control of the property themselves. While I can't speak for the franchise itself, in terms of what it can offer Lego in the way of set material, it's getting pretty darn stale and redundant in my eyes, hence why I wish it were scaled-back a degree to make room for an original Space Opera/Space Knights playtheme that Lego can call their own. Sure, I know there are plenty of great directions premise-wise that Lego could take the next in-house Space theme of theirs that don't involve an operatic good vs. evil saga; but, because of Star Wars, the greatest casualty from their monopolization of the genre is the chance of Lego ever attempting their own Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers-inspired Raypunk Space playtheme. They may share the same narrative themes and tropes, yet their aesthetic styles couldn't differ more from one another, and I just want to see some pulpy Flash Gordon-inspired goodness from Lego rather than more of the same-old drabness Star Wars continues to give us. 

[CP5670]

I think people are simply attached to whatever they liked growing up. For me it was the old space themes more than the original (before 1988) classic space, but I like classic space too. There is actually almost no difference between the final wave of classic space and Futuron, only the minifigs. I do think the dynamic, high contrast color schemes of all the old space themes really stand out, and we don't get much of that in modern themes like Star Wars, which are meant to look more realistic. I often take Blacktron MOCs to shows and kids love them because they think it's Batman, without knowing anything about the original themes, while adults have often commented on how the colors catch their eyes at a distance.

[hagridshut]

On 8/22/2019 at 1:18 PM, icm said:

Generally what is meant by "Classic Space" is the Space sets released between 1978 and 1987 in which the minifigures have old-style helmets without visors and their torsos are only decorated with a single Classic Space logo (the logo that appeared beginning in 1978) at about chest height.  You can find a comprehensive listing of those kits on Brickset.  Among those, some are more "classic" or well-remembered than others.  Generally the earliest sets in that line, specifically the 1978-1979 releases, are remembered much more fondly than the later sets.  The fan community's regard for Classic Space kits seems to decrease pretty monotonically as the release year increases.  

TLDR - Specifically, "Classic Space" is just the 1978-1987 kits and, if you stretch a point, the kits from The Lego Movie 1 and 2 that pay homage to those with the character of Benny.  Generally, "classic" Space kits are anything you liked as a kid.

I find it curious that the later years of Classic Space are not as popular as the kits from the 1970's.  I did not own anything from that era, but I did have a friend in my neighborhood who owned the Type 918, 924, and 928 style ships, and I remember buildings MOCs with the trans-yellow bricks and slopes commonly used in those sets.  

The first Lego sets I owned were from the mid to late 1980's, starting with the Intergalactic Command Base (1984), Xenon X-Craft (1985), and finally the Twin Starfire (1987).  I never felt that any of these later sets were worse than the 70's stuff.  There were many sets from the end of Classic Space that I wanted, though never owned, like the Cosmic Fleet Voyager (1986), Sonar Transmitting Cruiser (1986) and Polaris I Space Lab (1987).  I thought these were actually much better than most of the sets from the 1978/9 space catalog.

12 hours ago, CP5670 said:

I think people are simply attached to whatever they liked growing up. For me it was the old space themes more than the original (before 1988) classic space, but I like classic space too. There is actually almost no difference between the final wave of classic space and Futuron, only the minifigs. I do think the dynamic, high contrast color schemes of all the old space themes really stand out, and we don't get much of that in modern themes like Star Wars, which are meant to look more realistic. I often take Blacktron MOCs to shows and kids love them because they think it's Batman, without knowing anything about the original themes, while adults have often commented on how the colors catch their eyes at a distance.

Most of the Legos I bought or received as gifts were from the years 1988-1994, or basically Futuron/Blacktron through Spyrius.  I definitely feel the most attachment to these themes.  Oddly, I think that attachment to childhood interests has sustained my interest in modern Lego.  Harry Potter became enormously popular when I was in high school, and almost 2 decades later, it still gives me joy to see new incarnations of Harry Potter scenes in new Lego sets on store shelves.

[ShaydDeGrai]

On the original question, I'm afraid I can only offer a single data point.  My four year old really likes my old classic space stuff, as well as Benny's Spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP! from the first Lego movie.  She's also recently been quite taken with the new City-space kits.  Interestingly, she has shown zero interest in the Star Wars stuff.  She says a lot of those models look "mean" and doesn't like that the mini-figures are fleshies rather than yellow (which is interesting because she's been playing with Duplo since about 16 months and -those- figures have skin tones).  She's transitioning to Creator and City sets of her own and constantly raids my collection pulling kits I'd forgotten I own off the shelf (like a 40 year old Classic Space ship), shoving more modern and detailed SW stuff out of the way to get at it.   For the record, she hasn't seen Star Wars (or the Lego Movies for that matter) and I've done my best not to push her one way or the other, she just likes what she likes and classic space is fine with her but Star Wars is right out.