Waterbrick Down

Heroica RPG 2.0

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As much as I like some of the suggestions for altering range, they all seem to marginalize at least one of the weapon types; and I'd prefer that not to be the case. Right now, the success chance tweak is all I can think of... I was also working on a system where people who have certain weapon types equipped get to move more spaces before taking an attack action, which could be neat, albeit more to juggle.

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9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

The reload mechanic suggestion is specific to Artillery Weapons only... as I stated, as a way to balance out the superior range it has currently.  And I do think that splash damage needs to be addressed at some point.  They are explosive weapons and should act accordingly to a degree.  If they can be found later on with that effect than that is perfectly fine.  It certainly is not something needed immediately.

I don't think it's been indicated anywhere that artillery are explosive, and making them automatically so lowers the number of things that could be grouped into that category. What if someone wants to carry an artillery railgun or a giant laser as their main weapon?

15 minutes ago, Goliath said:

What about Bombs?  If Heroica 1.0 had Bombs that literally anyone could access, how would they work here?

I've been thinking about that actually. My idea is that you could have grenades for each damage type as consumables that scale like weapons (so the lowest tier of grenades would do one damage, then it would go up to two, then three, and finally four) that deal damage in an area around them and can be thrown out to long range, with the caveat that you can't add any of your weapon proficiencies to the damage. I also had a concept for a special type of artillery weapon to go with them:

Grenade Launcher (Special Artillery Weapon)

Special: This weapon does not have a Quality or Damage Type. When this weapon is equipped, you may use it to fire a grenade to any point within artillery range. This action consumes the grenade used, you may not use this weapon if you have no grenades.

33 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Maybe it is just me but Long Range Weapons do not feel very long range.  When I think Long Range Weapons, I think of high powered rifles and rail guns.  Weapons that require pinpoint accuracy.  When I think Short Ranged Weapons I think of shotguns and even pistols.  What about basic rifles and the likes?  Weapons that are not as accurate as Long Ranged Weapons but more accurate than Short Ranged Weapons.  They do not fit either category.

To be honest, all the ranged non-artillery weapons in the game have implausibly short ranges. It's a concession to the fact that most battlegrids aren't going to be very large and to keep melee weapons useful.

37 minutes ago, Goliath said:

My only gripe is the hit chance success for Long Ranged Weapons.  I feel they should at least follow the same chances as Short Ranged Weapons.  What is the point of a marksman who misses more often than not? :grin:

Weird, I thought that was how the original suggestion had it. But looking it over again I'm inclined to agree with you.

17 minutes ago, Endgame said:

As much as I like some of the suggestions for altering range, they all seem to marginalize at least one of the weapon types; and I'd prefer that not to be the case. Right now, the success chance tweak is all I can think of... I was also working on a system where people who have certain weapon types equipped get to move more spaces before taking an attack action, which could be neat, albeit more to juggle.

That sounds interesting. Perhaps the current move-or-attack system could be kept for artillery, long and short range could move once before attacking, and melee could move twice. Though perhaps having such a system on top of the alteration to success chances might be a bit too much.

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Battle grids were actually purposefully kept claustrophobic, because I knew that movement was so limited. If we introduce movement buffs I'd start throwing out 7x7 and 8x8 grids and the like instead, most likely. 5x5 and 6x6 seems to be a comfortable size for now, though... For parties of 3, honestly, a 4x4 or even a 3x3 may suffice.

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49 minutes ago, Lord Duvors said:

I don't think it's been indicated anywhere that artillery are explosive, and making them automatically so lowers the number of things that could be grouped into that category. What if someone wants to carry an artillery railgun or a giant laser as their main weapon?

That was an assumption on my part.  First thing that came to mind was explosives. :grin:

52 minutes ago, Lord Duvors said:

I've been thinking about that actually. My idea is that you could have grenades for each damage type as consumables that scale like weapons (so the lowest tier of grenades would do one damage, then it would go up to two, then three, and finally four) that deal damage in an area around them and can be thrown out to long range, with the caveat that you can't add any of your weapon proficiencies to the damage. I also had a concept for a special type of artillery weapon to go with them:

Grenade Launcher (Special Artillery Weapon)

Special: This weapon does not have a Quality or Damage Type. When this weapon is equipped, you may use it to fire a grenade to any point within artillery range. This action consumes the grenade used, you may not use this weapon if you have no grenades.

Not really a fan of the idea.  I might as well just throw the Bomb myself and not have to waste an action swapping weapons.

The only thing that would make that weapon worth while in my opinion is if it improves the hit chance over a basic toss.  That is assuming Bombs have a hit chance.

But if you just choose a spot and throw your Bomb I have no idea.

1 hour ago, Endgame said:

As much as I like some of the suggestions for altering range, they all seem to marginalize at least one of the weapon types; and I'd prefer that not to be the case. Right now, the success chance tweak is all I can think of... I was also working on a system where people who have certain weapon types equipped get to move more spaces before taking an attack action, which could be neat, albeit more to juggle.

That might work?

Perhaps a Melee user can move 3 spaces, a Short Ranged user can move 2 spaces, and the rest move 1 space?  Or Melee can move 2 spaces and the rest stay the same?

Obtainable loot could also affect such things too. :wink:

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3 hours ago, Goliath said:

Not really a fan of the idea.  I might as well just throw the Bomb myself and not have to waste an action swapping weapons.

The only thing that would make that weapon worth while in my opinion is if it improves the hit chance over a basic toss.  That is assuming Bombs have a hit chance.

But if you just choose a spot and throw your Bomb I have no idea.

Perhaps I should explain in more detail.

The idea of the grenade is that you throw it at a square (occupied or otherwise) and it does damage in a three-by-three area centered on that point. Those affected by it would still subtract their armor plus skill successes from the damage but you'd still be hitting multiple people.

The point of the grenade launcher is that it massively increases the range you can throw the grenade and by extension allow for more precise placement at longer ranges. I was thinking of it also adding your artillery proficiency to the damage but I wasn't sure about that.

I will admit however that I'd forgotten that you couldn't have two pieces of equipment of the same type equipped at once. Maybe making grenade launchers tools instead would work?

4 hours ago, Endgame said:

Battle grids were actually purposefully kept claustrophobic, because I knew that movement was so limited. If we introduce movement buffs I'd start throwing out 7x7 and 8x8 grids and the like instead, most likely. 5x5 and 6x6 seems to be a comfortable size for now, though... For parties of 3, honestly, a 4x4 or even a 3x3 may suffice.

Funny you should mention that.

 

49531762282_da109eca40_k.jpg

This is a large, three dimensional grid concept I've been working on. To go through it point-by-point:

  • Cover. Several of the squares on this grid are occupied by various objects, these are cover and cannot be moved through. The big yellow pipe and the yellow drums act as total cover, meaning that you cannot target someone if your firing angle on them passes through the space they occupy. The horizontal arrangement of red and blue piping act as partial cover, meaning that they act as some form of bonus to a character's defense roll if between them and the attacker. The walls of the manager's office (that big box thing) act as total cover, but only from certain directions for reasons to be explained later. The lip beneath it's window (the black bit) is the same for directly things below it. The window itself isn't however.
  • Concealed areas. The manager's office cannot be seen into by the players as the window's blackout glass is currently activated. If the glass is turned off or destroyed, or is a player enters the office, then the interior will be revealed. Players can make attacks against squares that are currently concealed even if they don't know weather there are enemies there or not. In this example an attack against those squares would destroy the glass and reveal the office, but this might not be true for all forms of concealment.
  • Enemies. In this example enemies are represented by all those nanofigs around the place, as would heroes if there were any on this board. For different scales one could use minifigs or microfigs for the same purpose.
  • Elevation. As you can see several bits of the map are at different levels then the rest with the neighboring grid pattern continuing up their sides to show distance from the ground. The two ways to interpret this would be either to say that the height is added to the distance when calculating range, or that distance and the height aren't added but if one or the other is larger then the weapon's range then you can't hit the target. I personally prefer the latter.
  • Deployment zone. The current area is so large and populated with enemies that it would strain disbelief for the heroes to deploy anywhere in it. Instead green squares are used here to indicate spaces where heroes could deploy themselves. This area would be just a three-by-three, but the presence of that cover so close to it adds some extra spaces to it's size. The green tiles would be removed after deployment.

 

49531768282_cfa070cce7_k.jpg

This is a cutaway view where anything blocking the view of revealed spaces has been removed. However since the Manager's office hasn't been revealed it's interior is not shown.

 

49531047863_26a1f74acd_k.jpg

And here is a view where the manager's office is revealed. As you can see it's walls do not take up the entire space of the squares they're situated in, this is why they only provide cover from certain directions.

Edited by Lord Duvors

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That map is incredible, and a lot of the mechanics are things I've been tossing around as ideas... Cover and plunging attacks/elevation especially. Maybe we'll see them in Heroica 2.0 one day. :wink:

Also, Igaz's arc has been going from using sludge to make Jek's face, to making sludge out of Jek's face. :look:

Edited by Endgame

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I've always been a fan of terrain and objects to be used as cover, etc. Really great work on that map, LD.

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Talking about cover and stuff, got me wondering, if their is going to be airborne, flying, floating (or whatever you want to call them) enemies, and / or heroes. 

I am thinking airborne "enemies" might be the best candidates for arsenal type of weapons. That don't use a "satellite laser" to attack someone. 

Edited by samurai-turtle
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Thank you for all the kind comments, I spent several hours on it and I'm thankful that people like it so much.

Also, I want to make it clear that I actually do want to stay and examine the crystal, it's just that in character it doesn't really make sense. Enson is currently mad as hell. I envisioned him as a quiet, responsible, friendly person when this thing started. But between the giant death ray, his constant arguments with Yelana, Jek being stupid and petty, and a teammate he was starting to like suddenly stomping someone's head in and starting to yell and grab things like an angry child have all combined to drive him over the edge of his normal calm into a deep well of untapped anger. And quite frankly I'm starting to lose it as well to a lesser extent. The entire tone of this adventure has been so unpleasant and argumentative that I've honestly stopped enjoying it, and that's on top of all the fighting that's been going on out of character about possible adjustments to the rules. Adding the massive lack of sleep I've been dealing with recently and I'm not really in a fit state to talk to people right now.

I think I'm going to take a day or two away from this and see if I feel better and want to come back. I don't want to dislike any of you but I feel if this goes on I might not be willing to talk about this at all and just leave without saying anything and never speak to any of you again.

@Endgame @Kintobor @samurai-turtle @Goliath @Classic_Spaceman @KotZ

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I feel awful that you feel that way, Lord Duvors. :sad: But I do very much appreciate the openness. Take the time you need.

My goal is to make sure that this mission is a fun experience that successfully tests the functionality and boundaries of the mechanics. However, that is ultimately secondary to simply hosting a good mission.

I take this kind of thing really seriously, and also take responsibility. So I ask you guys: is there anything you guys have been wanting from me, over this last month? We're pretty close to being done, but do you feel there's something I ought to be doing differently?

I have more thoughts that can be shared, if you guys would like, but right now I want to make sure I am doing right by everyone.

Edited by Endgame

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1 hour ago, Lord Duvors said:

   I think I'm going to take a day or two away from this and see if I feel better and want to come back. I don't want to dislike any of you but I feel if this goes on I might not be willing to talk about this at all and just leave without saying anything and never speak to any of you again.

@Endgame @Kintobor @samurai-turtle @Goliath @Classic_Spaceman @KotZ

Well it does seem like lack of sleep could be a big issue. 

Well I wasn't probably going to bring this up about @Classic_Spaceman . But I did get some comments about you from an outside observer, some of them were about I (or Tester-Three) should do bad stuff to your character. But this comment could be an insight... 

 This Classic Spaceman a-hole has been rubbing me the wrong way since I first messaged you about him. He's "I'm  nEw HeRe pUt mE iN ChARgE"

 

And just to be fair, I did ask him about my character. I was getting a "I am going to shoot you dead vibe" towards @Classic_Spaceman . His response back... 

The you and the group are doing fine. I'm waiting for T3 to say /// Threat detected targeting and weapons systems ARMED.


T3's right arm fist pumps as it  squares up to Classic Spaceman.

 

And then this is when the texts started to go to the "payback" talk. But then I told him basically "The trick is not and try to take the stuff to personal", then after a little more back in forth some of the stuff we were talking about should be taken into a PM (or DM). 

So my main comment towards @Classic_Spaceman if you are purposely being a jerk, I guess good job. :def_shrug: 

@Lord Duvors I hope you are feeling better, and would want to come back at some point. And just so you don't feel left out here is a sleeping dragon. :dtired: 

@Endgame I feel like I should Thank You! Right now (before I forget in the future). I never had you for a Dungeon Master and I really never had any ideas for what to expect. Well maybe fight off some Big Bad Boss at the end. :blush: 

As for @KotZ and @Kintobor I get the feeling you two are a little more busier than you let on. :shrug_confused: 

I might as well bring up @Goliath your character is coming off a little bit rough, but I get the feeling that what you are going for. :shrug_oh_well: 

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57 minutes ago, samurai-turtle said:

I might as well bring up @Goliath your character is coming off a little bit rough, but I get the feeling that what you are going for. :shrug_oh_well: 

Yeah, of course!  

Igaz strikes me as an antihero of sorts, almost like Deadpool in a way.  He means good but has a rather brutal and rather untraditional way about accomplishing deeds.  From his view, he is just annoyed with Yelana and feels no one understands that the egg contains the very last Sabrillo.  He just views her as "unprofessional" if you will.  He disapproved with Yelana threatening to reprogram Tester-Three, asking every new face questions relevant to the mission, and interrogating Jek during the battle.  He just kept his opinions bottled up until he snapped.  Being 300 years old that is I how I imagine he would cope with his feelings.

This is all in good fun.  I am in no way mad.  Not every character should act the same.  We are not Borg, we are individuals!  Everyone should cope with things differently and have different opinions.  It makes roleplaying that more interesting!

Edit: Though I will admit that I am just getting to the point where I do not even want to respond to Yelana because most of the things she says I have no clue about.  It just seems like lore and setting details were just created by her and not actually established by you, @Endgame, or anyone really creating the setting.  I feel out of the loop and trying to keep up with it is getting a bit frustrating.  If it is not canon why should I care?  It is just useless fluff at that point.  And her constantly telling everyone to do this and that is kind of annoying.  I get that having a team leader is good and all but she should chill with the commands.  I just do not find her charismatic.  I am just not a fan of having things be dictated by one player, that is all.  I just want to have fun and not have everything taken 100% serious.  Again, I am not mad but it makes me less enthusiastic to log in and participate. :sceptic:

 

Edited by Goliath

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3 hours ago, Endgame said:

I feel awful that you feel that way, Lord Duvors. :sad: But I do very much appreciate the openness. Take the time you need.

My goal is to make sure that this mission is a fun experience that successfully tests the functionality and boundaries of the mechanics. However, that is ultimately secondary to simply hosting a good mission.

I take this kind of thing really seriously, and also take responsibility. So I ask you guys: is there anything you guys have been wanting from me, over this last month? We're pretty close to being done, but do you feel there's something I ought to be doing differently?

I have more thoughts that can be shared, if you guys would like, but right now I want to make sure I am doing right by everyone.

Not that I can think of.

Honestly I think you have been doing a great job so far.  I really enjoyed the creative freedom when it comes to actions, like with the goo disguise and killing Jek.  Allowing stuff like that really changes up the quest and I think that is really interesting.  Maybe a butterfly effect sort of thing would be interesting?  I would like to hear alternate outcomes for some of our actions we have done, like what would have happened if Jek was left alive.  That sort of thing.

I am interested in hearing your other thoughts too.

And now that I think about it, I never cleaned the goo disguise off... :wacko:

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5 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

Well I wasn't probably going to bring this up about @Classic_Spaceman . But I did get some comments about you from an outside observer, some of them were about I (or Tester-Three) should do bad stuff to your character. But this comment could be an insight... 

 

 

And just to be fair, I did ask him about my character. I was getting a "I am going to shoot you dead vibe" towards @Classic_Spaceman . His response back... 

 

 

And then this is when the texts started to go to the "payback" talk. But then I told him basically "The trick is not and try to take the stuff to personal", then after a little more back in forth some of the stuff we were talking about should be taken into a PM (or DM). 

So my main comment towards @Classic_Spaceman if you are purposely being a jerk, I guess good job. :def_shrug: 

I am new, so I did not (particularly at the start of the game) have a full understanding of proper etiquette and format. I wish that you had brought this to my attention earlier, however, as I had absolutely not intended to come across as an “a-hole”! I apologise. 
I was initially writing Yelana as a bit snarky, but I have been reworking her character since the beginning of the game. I found (just from rereading my own posts) that what I had intended to be light sarcasm, seemed more hostile without any indicators of tone. 
 

4 hours ago, Goliath said:

Though I will admit that I am just getting to the point where I do not even want to respond to Yelana because most of the things she says I have no clue about.  It just seems like lore and setting details were just created by her and not actually established by you, @Endgame, or anyone really creating the setting.  I feel out of the loop and trying to keep up with it is getting a bit frustrating.  If it is not canon why should I care?  It is just useless fluff at that point.  And her constantly telling everyone to do this and that is kind of annoying.  I get that having a team leader is good and all but she should chill with the commands.  I just do not find her charismatic.  I am just not a fan of having things be dictated by one player, that is all. 

Specifically what elements of lore have been a problem? I actually have been making things up, as an attempt at world-building and creating a backstory for Yelana. I wanted her to seem experienced, so I have written things in with the intent to convey that (such as the bit about Super Plasma Potions being flammable). 
I had never written Yelana to be charismatic, since I have always thought of her as someone who usually works alone (and now needs to work as part of a group), but I also have not intended her to be unlikable. Do you have any advice for how to improve Yelana’s character? I am open to suggestions. 
 

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8 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Specifically what elements of lore have been a problem? I actually have been making things up, as an attempt at world-building and creating a backstory for Yelana. I wanted her to seem experienced, so I have written things in with the intent to convey that (such as the bit about Super Plasma Potions being flammable). 

I had never written Yelana to be charismatic, since I have always thought of her as someone who usually works alone (and now needs to work as part of a group), but I also have not intended her to be unlikable. Do you have any advice for how to improve Yelana’s character? I am open to suggestions. 
 

See, that is the problem.  The world does not revolve around Yelana.  And I mean that literally.  I have no problem with establishing lore and world building but I feel like someone else should when it comes to the world at large.  A lot of the information Yelana gives seems too big for it to be passable background information.  For me, it just gets overwhelming and I question whether I should care or not.  It comes off as forced and makes me almost feel like we are living in Yelana's world.

Look, I will never tell anyone how to play their character but you have to realize that every mission is a group effort.  If Yelana is more familiar with working alone that should reflect in what she does - does things by herself without consulting the group if she feels confident with doing so.  Eventually Yelana becomes more comfortable with working in a team and does just that.  That is something that should not happen in just one quest but happens over time because she realizes how more efficient teamwork is and keeps her lone world tendencies in check.

The reason I decided that Igaz kills Jek is mostly because I did not want to spend like two days trying to figure out what to do with him.  Maybe it was just me being eager to see what happens next in the story.  That is why I think there should be more consequences for actions.  Had we continued to debate on what to do with Jek, what if someone else took the egg and we failed or more goons showed up?  Maybe I am just being cynical but I think time should be a factor when determining events granted it would not actually be two days "in-game" but with a high value target you can never be too careful.

Edited by Goliath

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4 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I am new, so I did not (particularly at the start of the game) have a full understanding of proper etiquette and format. I wish that you had brought this to my attention earlier, however, as I had absolutely not intended to come across as an “a-hole”! I apologise. 
I was initially writing Yelana as a bit snarky, but I have been reworking her character since the beginning of the game. I found (just from rereading my own posts) that what I had intended to be light sarcasm, seemed more hostile without any indicators of tone. 
 

Specifically what elements of lore have been a problem? I actually have been making things up, as an attempt at world-building and creating a backstory for Yelana. I wanted her to seem experienced, so I have written things in with the intent to convey that (such as the bit about Super Plasma Potions being flammable). 
I had never written Yelana to be charismatic, since I have always thought of her as someone who usually works alone (and now needs to work as part of a group), but I also have not intended her to be unlikable. Do you have any advice for how to improve Yelana’s character? I am open to suggestions. 
 

Well the problem started after you (Yelana) threatened to reprogram Tester-Three. And everyone told you it was not OK. But then @Lord Duvors mentioned not feeling well and I figured an outside observer might help bring a valid point towards some of his feelings. 

If you are a little curious about the outsider observer, he mentioned to me he was interested in Dungeon & Dragons. And wonder if I ever played it but only (mostly) experience was with Heroica (here). And then a possible new game stared with the Zero Mission, so I ended up texting him about it. But by the time he ended up getting the texts the Zero Mission was starting. I don't want to get to much more into the "observer" out respect of his privacy. Plus he might come here later to play the game, and he wants to bring up some general stuff about me that is his prerogative. 

As for lore or world building, it seems like you @Classic_Spaceman comes off a know it all, like you have all this first hand knowledge. Witch would be fine if you are 10,000 years old but I am thinking Yelana is not even close to that. Plus, I guess I might of played a character like this but at the same time he could of been 10,000 years old. And I probably annoyed some of the other players at the time. But if you really want to world build I suggest you think about being a Dungeon Master (or Mission Master or whatever it gets called). 

10 hours ago, Goliath said:

Though I will admit that I am just getting to the point where I do not even want to respond to Yelana because most of the things she says I have no clue about.  It just seems like lore and setting details were just created by her and not actually established by you, @Endgame, or anyone really creating the setting.  I feel out of the loop and trying to keep up with it is getting a bit frustrating.  If it is not canon why should I care?  It is just useless fluff at that point.  And her constantly telling everyone to do this and that is kind of annoying.  I get that having a team leader is good and all but she should chill with the commands.  I just do not find her charismatic.  I am just not a fan of having things be dictated by one player, that is all.  I just want to have fun and not have everything taken 100% serious.  Again, I am not mad but it makes me less enthusiastic to log in and participate.

I can understand your thinking on this. Dealing with "control freaks" is not fun in general. 

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3 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

As for lore or world building, it seems like you @Classic_Spaceman comes off a know it all, like you have all this first hand knowledge. Witch would be fine if you are 10,000 years old but I am thinking Yelana is not even close to that. Plus, I guess I might of played a character like this but at the same time he could of been 10,000 years old. And I probably annoyed some of the other players at the time. But if you really want to world build I suggest you think about being a Dungeon Master (or Mission Master or whatever it gets called). 

Yeah that is a gripe I have too.  Especially since there are proficiencies now that affect your knowledge, like Culture.  How can one be so knowledgeable yet not be proficient?  It just does not make sense with her character.  She seem like a pretty typical bounty hunter or assassin type, not a scholar like Kleeck.  If anything Igaz would be more knowledgeable about the world at large since he is 300 years old but I avoid it for pretty much the reasons I have stated.  I get that the setting is extremely vast and there are infinite possibilities for things but to have other players expect to know what you are talking about with really no set lore is ludicrous.

With that being said, I think the Dungeon Master / Mission Master should consult with players who are proficient in certain skills before  or during the quest in a DM.  For example, supposed my Arcana is 3 and no one else is proficient in that skill.  I should be able to figure relevant things out with having to examine said magic based on that skill.  Only some information would be revealed only to me and I am responsible on sharing that information or not.  Hopefully you guys understand what I am getting at.  I am guessing proficiencies are based on a scale of 1 - 10.

@Classic_Spaceman I am not trying to pick on you or anything, I am just trying to help you out.  A lot of us here have been participating since Heroica 1.0 so we understand courteous roleplaying.  There are a lot of things I want to say but I just cannot express them right now. :wacko: 

 

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22 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

As for @KotZ and @Kintobor I get the feeling you two are a little more busier than you let on. :shrug_confused: 

I might as well bring up @Goliath your character is coming off a little bit rough, but I get the feeling that what you are going for. :shrug_oh_well: 

I have unfortunately been rather busy, and I'm sorry I haven't been able to commit as much as I wish I could. That being said, I have been having a good time, Endgame! :classic:

As for Yelana, Classic Spaceman, I notice that an issue seems to be trying to communicate concepts that you're trying to convey. I think Yelana started speaking a different language at one point? This would be okay, if any of us potentially knew what it meant in-game. It kind of just came out of nowhere, and I guess there was this concept that we all understood it, but you cannot force us all to know that. It was also really hard to tell what you were communicating when everything you typed was in all caps. It really bled together and made it hard to read through. When everything reads important to a reader's eye, nothing is.

That all being said, you did suggest that someone try something instead of forcing your way into doing that action yourself with the translator. That shows signs you've taken in criticism and learned from it. :sweet: None of us were expert roleplayers when we first started, Classic Spaceman, at least for myself, I'm giving advice in the hopes it makes better roleplayers. :thumbup:

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On 2/17/2020 at 12:12 PM, Goliath said:

See, that is the problem.  The world does not revolve around Yelana.  And I mean that literally.  I have no problem with establishing lore and world building but I feel like someone else should when it comes to the world at large.  A lot of the information Yelana gives seems too big for it to be passable background information.  For me, it just gets overwhelming and I question whether I should care or not.  It comes off as forced and makes me almost feel like we are living in Yelana's world.

By "world-building", I meant that I have been trying to write Yelana as a person who occupies a wold that exists beyond the confines of the current game. As such, I have included off-hand details in her dialogue, in order to make it feel more natural/realistic. I am not sure what you found to be "too big" for background information, so I would appreciate if you could cite some specific examples. 

On 2/17/2020 at 12:12 PM, Goliath said:

Look, I will never tell anyone how to play their character but you have to realize that every mission is a group effort.  If Yelana is more familiar with working alone that should reflect in what she does - does things by herself without consulting the group if she feels confident with doing so.  Eventually Yelana becomes more comfortable with working in a team and does just that.  That is something that should not happen in just one quest but happens over time because she realizes how more efficient teamwork is and keeps her lone world tendencies in check.

This, in addition to retooling Yelana's character and background overall, is something that I have been working on/towards. 
 

On 2/17/2020 at 1:09 PM, samurai-turtle said:

Well the problem started after you (Yelana) threatened to reprogram Tester-Three. And everyone told you it was not OK.

I apologise for this. I had intended for the interactions between Yelana and Tester-Three to resemble the kinds of Human-Droid rivalries often seen in Star Wars, but after @Endgame informed me that it was a breach of etiquette, I dropped the topic. 

On 2/17/2020 at 1:09 PM, samurai-turtle said:

As for lore or world building, it seems like you @Classic_Spaceman comes off a know it all, like you have all this first hand knowledge. Witch would be fine if you are 10,000 years old but I am thinking Yelana is not even close to that. Plus, I guess I might of played a character like this but at the same time he could of been 10,000 years old. And I probably annoyed some of the other players at the time. But if you really want to world build I suggest you think about being a Dungeon Master (or Mission Master or whatever it gets called). 

Again, I am not quite sure how it seems that Yelana possesses 10,000 years' worth of information. However, on that note, my approach towards writing has been that, as this is a sci-fi/sci-fantasy universe, information is relatively easily-accessible (as it is IRL), and, as she is a Blacktron (or whatever we end up calling it in the finalised game) agent, Yelana has had both direct and indirect knowledge of a variety of subjects. 

Also, just to be clear, Yelana and I are not the same person (as your post seems to suggest). While my RP-ing mistakes may manifest themselves in her, I specifically chose a female character so that I would have a bit of distance from said character (as I am male), and would not simply play a version of myself. Thus, I may decide to write Yelana as a know-it-all, but without being one myself. This distinction is important, as I am unclear as to who is coming across poorly - Yelana or I (or some combination of both). 
 

On 2/17/2020 at 5:12 PM, Goliath said:

She seem like a pretty typical bounty hunter or assassin type, not a scholar like Kleeck. 

Though I initially conceived of her as such, I have been reworking her into more of a spy/intelligence agent (hence her recording everything, avoiding violence when possible, etc). 
 

21 hours ago, Kintobor said:

As for Yelana, Classic Spaceman, I notice that an issue seems to be trying to communicate concepts that you're trying to convey. I think Yelana started speaking a different language at one point? This would be okay, if any of us potentially knew what it meant in-game. It kind of just came out of nowhere, and I guess there was this concept that we all understood it, but you cannot force us all to know that. 

I probably should have explained the language. I had decided to write Yelana's actions into her speech, rather than simply giving OoC exposition, so I gave her visor a voice-interface. This was fine, until the party entered the auction, and I realised that Yelana should not be announcing her actions in such a setting. To rectify this, I started creating a language for her to use (with translations provided, when necessary), so that NPCs would not be able to understand her. This was somewhat of a retcon, however, as she should have been using this language with her tech for the entire mission. 

21 hours ago, Kintobor said:

It was also really hard to tell what you were communicating when everything you typed was in all caps. It really bled together and made it hard to read through. When everything reads important to a reader's eye, nothing is.

OK. I was attempting to indicate which text was in-character and which was not, while retaining italics to use for emphasis, but I will try to work out some other signifier. 

21 hours ago, Kintobor said:

That all being said, you did suggest that someone try something instead of forcing your way into doing that action yourself with the translator. That shows signs you've taken in criticism and learned from it. :sweet: None of us were expert roleplayers when we first started, Classic Spaceman, at least for myself, I'm giving advice in the hopes it makes better roleplayers. :thumbup:

Thank you. I appreciate constructive criticism/input (with specific issues cited), as I do want to improve my writing/RP-ing. 
 

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Heroica's very first moving picture! We're pioneering technology here, folks. And yes, you can unscramble at least one frame of it. No, it will not be easy. :tongue:

Also, I apologize for missing a day. Getting these renders/images to look how I wanted was tougher than expected, and your Mission Master was dumb enough to pull a hamstring because he forgot how to set himself for a sprint properly. :blush:

I think that the phantom/the Iconoclast are both pretty cool though. :grin:

Just now, Classic_Spaceman said:

By "world-building", I meant that I have been trying to write Yelana as a person who occupies a wold that exists beyond the confines of the current game. As such, I have included off-hand details in her dialogue, in order to make it feel more natural/realistic. I am not sure what you found to be "too big" for background information, so I would appreciate if you could cite some specific examples. 

This, in addition to retooling Yelana's character and background overall, is something that I have been working on/towards.

I apologise for this. I had intended for the interactions between Yelana and Tester-Three to resemble the kinds of Human-Droid rivalries often seen in Star Wars, but after @Endgame informed me that it was a breach of etiquette, I dropped the topic. 

Again, I am not quite sure how it seems that Yelana possesses 10,000 years' worth of information. However, on that note, my approach towards writing has been that, as this is a sci-fi/sci-fantasy universe, information is relatively easily-accessible (as it is IRL), and, as she is a Blacktron (or whatever we end up calling it in the finalised game) agent, Yelana has had both direct and indirect knowledge of a variety of subjects.

So in regards to this, your intentions are being fulfilled, but I don't know if that is the right intention to build your character around, especially at this stage in the game. Right now, the setting and the mechanics behind it are not quite fully realized, since we've only had a peek at what the galaxy has to offer. To that end, Yelana is, objectively speaking, a denizen of the current game. Characters in Heroica were at their finest when they were reactive to the world, not proactive. They saw what the world had to offer and let it shape their views, their motives, their wants and goals- not the other way around. It's more human that way.

If you want to play Yelana as an intelligence agent, there's ways to fit that in. Tone down her innate knowledge but keep her inquisitive nature; dump stats into Perception and Insight, and get the rolls you need to get the information you want from the world around you. And have her log all that info, either for herself or to whoever she serves, and maintain it. It's a bit jarring for me as a mission master (and I imagine it was for your fellow players) when I introduce a concept like cloning or cloaking, and say that it is respectively very limited and very powerful... and it gets thrown out and contradicted immediately. I know the setting doesn't always work how you guys originally thought. But A) that's the fun of it, B) entirely copying what already exists is kinda boring. :tongue:

We all learn. For now, I suggest that you have Yelana play it a bit more safe until we all get comfortable in this whacky/wondrous new galaxy, and let her react and interact with the world organically. I think you'll find it more rewarding... Sometimes your own character will find ways to surprise you. :wink:

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7 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I apologise for this. I had intended for the interactions between Yelana and Tester-Three to resemble the kinds of Human-Droid rivalries often seen in Star Wars, but after @Endgame informed me that it was a breach of etiquette, I dropped the topic. 

Again, I am not quite sure how it seems that Yelana possesses 10,000 yuears' worth of information. However, on that note, my approach towards writing has been that, as this is a sci-fi/sci-fantasy universe, information is relatively easily-accessible (as it is IRL), and, as she is a Blacktron (or whatever we end up calling it in the finalised game) agent, Yelana has had both direct and indirect knowledge of a variety of subjects. 

Also, just to be clear, Yelana and I are not the same person (as your post seems to suggest). While my RP-ing mistakes may manifest themselves in her, I specifically chose a female character so that I would have a bit of distance from said character (as I am male), and would not simply play a version of myself. Thus, I may decide to write Yelana as a know-it-all, but without being one myself. This distinction is important, as I am unclear as to who is coming across poorly - Yelana or I (or some combination of both). 
 

 

I probably should have explained the language. I had decided to write Yelana's actions into her speech, rather than simply giving OoC exposition, so I gave her visor a voice-interface. This was fine, until the party entered the auction, and I realised that Yelana should not be announcing her actions in such a setting. To rectify this, I started creating a language for her to use (with translations provided, when necessary), so that NPCs would not be able to understand her. This was somewhat of a retcon, however, as she should have been using this language with her tech for the entire mission. 

The Human vs. Droid wasn't from Star Wars it seems more from Battlestar Galactica (the Syfy version). But then my knowledge from Star Wars is mostly from the movies. But also I kinda got where you were trying to do, maybe. 

Seriously, you though I was 100% serious on 10,000 years of knowledge. Some times you got to read between the lines. But it all comes off as you had all the first hand knowledge some how and we just read your Yelana mind  where she got it from. Maybe hint when or where other jobs you had. But I do have an example of how you could do that, The Transformers: The Movie (1986 version) their is an character call Kup now he is an old veteran, and he start a story "This reminds me of the time I was on Bortron 7". But then when someone asked about Unicron, he said "Nope can't think of anything". I guess another example is when Tester-Three stared talking about it's creator, it wasn't even sure any of it was true or you know just rumors. 

What? Next you are going to tell me I am not a robot or a demon. Some times it is just easier (or laziness) to not separate the person from the character. Take @KotZ his last character was a female and I still have trouble separate the gender properly. But then again the character is coming out of your head not mine, so it is partly you in that sense. 

Plus me can't right two well all of the thing E without the clocks on my ruler. :innocent: 

I guess it seem to come out of nowhere with no explanation. I think a sentence or two some times help. 

I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to give constructive comments. I guess you could tell me where to go. But I am going to put out a reminder on role playing, that was told to me. It is improv and the main rule of improv is a willingness to say Yes. 

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@Classic_Spaceman I hate having to go through all those pages just for examples but here are my thoughts.

On 1/13/2020 at 10:44 PM, Classic_Spaceman said:

You’re assuming that he plans to sell the egg, though - The only actual intel you have is that he took the egg to Gnorra. He may have other plans for it. 
What was the natural habitat for the Sabrillo? Anything like Gnorra - Or Cydonia, for that matter? It's reptilian, but it looks like it can move through water, and, according to our database, Gnorra’s surface is mostly water. 

 

Interesting. How is Cydonia maintaining control over such a large territory? It can’t be outright conquest, since their military forces would be overstretched, so it must be something else. 
 

Good - And nice thinking, Toaster! I was wondering how the species could ever be repopulated from just one egg. If Jek really is as devoted to GLESP as Vannoy thought he was, he may be trying to save the Sabrillo through cloning. 
 

You can keep it - I just want a closer look at the sigil. We might be able to tell something about Cydonia and its intents from the design. I’ve not done this without access to IRIS, though, so I’m not sure how much I’ll be able to discern. 

 


OoC: Underlined text indicates action. @samurai-turtle can keep the Landing Pass, since I will be a bit busy tomorrow, and I do not want my potential unavailability to hamper the party’s progress. 

You are assuming that the Sabrillo can only move in water and that Gnorra is mostly water.  Unless I missed it nothing was stated by the MM to support that claim that Gnorra is indeed mostly water.

On 1/13/2020 at 11:51 PM, Classic_Spaceman said:

Wait - What outrage?? Is there some kind of internal conflict going on? 
Also, is there any reason why we shouldn’t contact local authorities about this “Umbra Auction”? If they really want it shut down, they may be willing to work with us. 

 

It’s been difficult without IRIS, but I’ve been examining the sigil, and. . . I hope this makes sense - It seems to suggest that the Cydonians think of themselves as benevolent overlords, or even some kind of divine figures or representatives! The sigil looks like five circles, possibly representing planets, with one as the ‘leader’, in a cloud - that, or it’s a person with their arms out - and with rays of light shining down.
Does this match anything you know about Cydonia? Perhaps the Cydonian System has five planets, with one being the capital? 
If Cydonia is a theocracy with a state religion, that would explain both the mentioned outrage and how they can maintain control over their territory. 

 

Again, you are making more assumptions but this time about the Cydonians and claiming that the Cydonian System has five planets.  Unless I missed it.  And I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they are a theocracy.

On 1/25/2020 at 9:23 PM, Classic_Spaceman said:

Hmmm. . . Scan for genetic material - That might give us something to track. Oh - And speaking of: Find that tracker Vannoy mentioned, and cross-check the data with the ship's flight log. Look for discrepancies, and make sure to download everything

By the way, remember when I said that something's off about this mission? Yeah, that. Vannoy said that Jek was a "fine worker", but "fine workers" don't join workers' rights movements. "Fine workers" do their jobs, keep their heads down, don't make noise, are grateful for whatever they're paid - That kind of thing. I don't think Vannoy would consider someone who's part of a movement a "fine worker"

Anyway, I'm going back to talk to Faeja. Send me a copy of that data, and let me know when we're going back to Haurbo City. 
 

Hey - I just wanted to finish our conversation, if you're not too busy. Sorry about all. . . that, by the way. Uh. Yeah, I. . . Can I sit here? 
Anyway, I think we left off talking about the Cydonian's ships - You said they decloaked five above the planet, and that the Gnorrans just handed control of the system over. What else can you tell me about the Cydonian takeover? Also, just so we're clear, the dreadnought that's here was one of the four smaller ships, right? 

 

Here I have no clue how you came to the conclusion on their fleet size.  As far as I could tell nothing was stated previously that gave insight as to how many ships they have.  Only some information was provided on their dreadnaught ship.

On 1/25/2020 at 11:01 PM, Classic_Spaceman said:

I actually have a theory about the Cydonians, but I'm wondering - Can you tell me anything else about the structure of the ships? I know - Big, grey, lots of guns - But you can often tell a culture's values and strategies by their ship's designs
 

Once again, more assumtpions.  Maybe I am nitpicking here because how else would the most badass ship in a military fleet look like?  Point is, the MM could have decided it was smaller, is red, and has maybe one weapon.

On 1/26/2020 at 12:23 AM, Classic_Spaceman said:

I don't know why you don't! And why do people call them "clangers"? 
When did you first hear about Cydonia, anyway - When they arrived, or before that? I'd never heard of them, but our employer had some intel: Up until about fifty years ago, Cydonia was fairly unremarkable. Since then, however, they've managed to gain control of twelve additional systems, and it's unclear how they're able to maintain their control. 
At least, that's what he told us. He said that they "speak softly and carry a large plasma baton", but I think he's wrong. From what I've seen and heard here, I'd say they speak loudly about the size of their "plasma baton", so people don't realise it's more of a "plasma pencil". 
Look around: New regime, but no real security upgrades. A cloaked dreadnought - Parked in atmo, where it can be located easily. Unsubstantiated rumours of cloaked soldiers, but no way to really deploy them if they existed, given the weather. Constant patrols, but a 48-hour wait on responses to claims made at the Enforcers' Bureau. Conspicuous surveillance, the Cydonian sigil on walls, only one guard at the dock where we landed - All of this points to the Cydonians having low resources and a tenuous grasp on their territory, secured only by fear and rumours
My guess is that the Cydonians' expansion coincided with their development of cloaking technology, and that they use their cloaks to hide their forces' low numbers, relying on the fear of higher numbers to get and retain control - In fact, I'd say the four dreadnoughts that showed up here are over a quarter of their fleet. 

 

I have no idea where you are getting this time frame from.  And again, more assumtpions.  This time on how the Cyndonians rely on cloaking technology to deceive enemies about the size of their fleet which was never revealed.

On 1/29/2020 at 2:12 AM, Classic_Spaceman said:

You misunderstood - Those are three different things: You seemed to dismiss the existence of “secret plots” out-of-hand, but I would consider Jek’s theft, and planned sale, of the Sabrillo egg to constitute one. 
I’ve been skeptical of the Cydonians since we arrived here - We don’t know much about them, and I get the feeling that they’re overcompensating for low resources with their constant displays of strength and control. 
Finally, my comments about terraforming and mining were just speculation, when I was under the impression that the dreadnought fired on a regular basis. Knowing now that it hadn’t makes the explanation that it fired on a rebel cell more plausible - Vannoy did mention “outrage”, so rebel activity is a possibility. 

It’s not just the security systems - Their Enforcers are overworked, and they seem to go out of their way to make their presence and strength known - Even to the point of possibly fabricating rumours of cloaked soldiers, just to keep the population in line. All of this makes me think that they have less control here than they want people to realise

I know cloaks. I’ve developed anti-cloaking detection and defence grids. Cloaking fields generally work on the same basic premise - Bending light and sound around the target object. The object in question still has mass, though, so even a ship with a gravimetric cloak will leave a wake when passing through a nebula, for instance. And unless the dreadnought has an uplink with orbital or ground-based monitoring systems, it can’t fake global wind-currents. Locally, perhaps, but discrepancies in a jet stream would be noticeable anywhere. 
Also, a psychic field? Even if the ship had the kind of power necessary to create one on such a large scale, that still doesn’t solve the problem of atmospheric disruptions or the fractal patterning that my visor would absolutely have detected - Particularly on something the size of a dreadnought

I’m an intelligence agent; I often need to extrapolate from small amounts of data - And, I prefer not to shoot first and answer for it later. 
Nothing’s gone particularly wrong thus far, and certainly not because I’ve misjudged a situation. You clearly aren’t aware of who I’m working for, or what my reputation with them is, because “overthinking” is exactly how I‘ve made it this far in my career. 

 

I have no idea where you got the idea that the Cyndonians are compensating for low resources by showing how dangerous they are.  From what I could tell, there are rebels and the attack from the dreadnaught annihilated a rebel fortification of some type.  Something as simple as that.  I also have no idea why you came to the conclusion that they have less control than what is to be led on.

And having Yelana developed "anti-cloaking detection and defense grids" just seems crazy to me.  Her having all this knowledge just seems to farfetched to even believe.  I think this among other things is why we find Yelana to be a snobby know-it-all type.  Having a backstory as elaborate as this just comes of as egregious in my opinion.  This just feels like something an NPC would have accomplished, not an actual player.

On 2/6/2020 at 2:35 AM, Classic_Spaceman said:

Enson: If this doesn’t work, I’ll just stun him. The walls are soundproof, so we should be able to grab the egg and escape through the storage room’s tunnel without either Samba or anyone in the auction realising. Trips is inside, though, so we’ll need to deal with him as well - Shouldn't be too hard. 
<Gar’A’ti Ba-Gat’a> [“Target Locked”] 

 

Again, probably me nitpicking here but saying the walls are soundproof seems like a detail you should not know unless you passed a proficiency check to actually prove that it is.

 

Based on everything here, the biggest point I suppose I am trying to make is that you should let the MM world-build during their quest.  The MM probably has other things in mind than you and it could pose problems very easily.  All the details they could possibly provide are for only them to provide.  And to some degree that applies to the world of Heroica 2.0 at large, like with how technology works or events that have taken place.  I do not necessary want to say it is the MM's story because we influence events but yeah, details relevant to things in the quest should always be given by the MM.

When you develop the backstory for your character, I think it is best to keep it somewhat vague.  Coming across as a hotshot or someone who could be very important is honestly never a good idea.  Why throw all of that away to become a Hero?  You find yourself going down a rabbit hole that you cannot escape and have to justify reasons for everything to the point is becomes unbelievable.

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13 hours ago, Goliath said:

And having Yelana developed "anti-cloaking detection and defense grids" just seems crazy to me.  Her having all this knowledge just seems to farfetched to even believe.  I think this among other things is why we find Yelana to be a snobby know-it-all type.  Having a backstory as elaborate as this just comes of as egregious in my opinion.  This just feels like something an NPC would have accomplished, not an actual player.

I'm going to disagree with this point. I think a PC being a former engineer who worked on devices and weapons is totally in line with a reasonable backstory. Sabine Wren from Star Wars Rebels was a weapons designer in the Imperial Academy before defecting after creating a weapon which could vapourize Mandalorians, her own people, by targeting the material made in their armour. She realized the threat it posed and made every effort to sabotage the program before leaving and joining the Ghost crew. I'd say that kind of backstory is acceptable in this kind of backstory.

That being said, you'd need the skills to back that story up. I'd say at least two ranks in engineering and two in either explosions, long weapons, melee weapons, short weapons, or arcana would seem reasonable. I like this new skill system since it forces you to look at your skills in relation to your backstory.

I liked Heroica 1.0's simplicity when it came to backstory, but if we're going to have skill checks, your backstory should line up with what you've selected for skills. A doctor should have skills revolving around healing and medicine at the start of the game, a mercenary is a little bit more open ended, but they should have skills that reflected their role in their squadron. A priestess of Solaria should have points in faith to reflect their time studying her goddess's scripture and performing acts of faith for the poor. 

Heroica 2.0 is shaping up to be a different beast from Heroica 1.0, and that's a good thing. Character skills will now reflect character backstory. :classic:

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7 hours ago, Kintobor said:

I'm going to disagree with this point. I think a PC being a former engineer who worked on devices and weapons is totally in line with a reasonable backstory. Sabine Wren from Star Wars Rebels was a weapons designer in the Imperial Academy before defecting after creating a weapon which could vapourize Mandalorians, her own people, by targeting the material made in their armour. She realized the threat it posed and made every effort to sabotage the program before leaving and joining the Ghost crew. I'd say that kind of backstory is acceptable in this kind of backstory.

That being said, you'd need the skills to back that story up. I'd say at least two ranks in engineering and two in either explosions, long weapons, melee weapons, short weapons, or arcana would seem reasonable. I like this new skill system since it forces you to look at your skills in relation to your backstory.

I liked Heroica 1.0's simplicity when it came to backstory, but if we're going to have skill checks, your backstory should line up with what you've selected for skills. A doctor should have skills revolving around healing and medicine at the start of the game, a mercenary is a little bit more open ended, but they should have skills that reflected their role in their squadron. A priestess of Solaria should have points in faith to reflect their time studying her goddess's scripture and performing acts of faith for the poor. 

Heroica 2.0 is shaping up to be a different beast from Heroica 1.0, and that's a good thing. Character skills will now reflect character backstory. :classic:

True and I completely agree with that sentiment.  The skills you choose to start with should reflect your backstory.  I just feel that there is too much going on for Yelana that her skills do not justify said backstory details.  She has claimed to have been a developer, an intelligence agent, a mercenary, and I think assassin.  Her skills do not reflect that except for the most part.  Being a developer who worked with stealth technology I think would be proficient in Technology and Stealth.  An intelligence agent would be proficient in Culture and Insight if I had to guess.  A mercenary could really be anything.  And an assassin would be proficient in Stealth and Deception.  Really the weapon type can be anything.  Granted that Yelana's age is not exactly known but if I had to guess she is not too old so having all of this experience just seems unreal.

Maybe it is just me but I prefer characters to not have so many skills to begin with.  And since these stats will not be high to begin with the backstories should align with that.  I just prefer from going from a nobody to a somebody.  So if proficiencies max out at 10, which is my guess but I would like clarification on this, anything lower than 5 would be below average.

And maybe I am reading into this too much but I almost feel like we should have a Training Hall of sorts like Heroica 1.0 where we can hone our skills at.  Being able to just suddenly become proficient in Arcana during a non-magic based mission. for example, seems strange.

This is probably way too early to even ask but what will the rule be when it comes to having another character?  I would love to eventually play a different playstyle than what I am planning on beginning with.  Though, I am conflicted on whether or this character is better suited as an NPC because, arguably, Illithids could be viewed as too powerful with Psionic capabilities.  But I feel like I have a pretty good backstory in mind.

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27 minutes ago, Goliath said:

ing into this too much but I almost feel like we should have a Training Hall of sorts like Heroica 1.0 where we can hone our skills at.  Being able to just suddenly become proficient in Arcana during a non-magic based mission. for example, seems strange.

Flagging this in a quote because I think there is a way to address this in the future. I'm just waiting until the end of the quest for all my thoughts.

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