Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars RPG - Game Development

[Classic_Spaceman]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duvors said:

I'm sorry but that sounds too much like metagaming. I feel that a character should actually go to the trouble of actively passing on information to the rest of the party rather than have everyone automatically know what everyone else is doing. Which I suppose is my biggest objection to the whole idea.

I disagree with this, since it would clutter threads with redundant exposition. I prefer just to assume that characters who are in the same area can overhear each other (and, as such, comms would simply extend that range). 
 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Classic_Spaceman

[Endgame]

Let's not forget that the act of relaying information is, in of itself, a roleplaying element. When a party reconvenes and catches each other up, it's not just about getting the other players up to speed. The players could already very well know. It's about putting yourself in your character's mind, and asking, "How did they react to what they just experienced? How do they retell it to the rest?" And from there, other roleplaying questions arise: "How does their audience react? Does the person they were with agree with their retelling? Does this cause conflict? Does it cause characters to grow closer?" It's far from redundant information. Remember, at the end of the day, this is a roleplaying game.

That being said, I think the route I am most comfortable taking for this test mission is in-sight, short range comms used to handwave people knowing about certain things in situations like the current city street investigation. However, long-range comms are currently unusable, jammed by the Cydonians.

(And yes, that is why I am wary about giving long-range comms in the first place - because I know Mission Masters will inevitably jam them 90% of the time. I'd rather it be a tool that is selectively granted, rather than always given but mostly taken away, if that makes any sense.)

This is the way I am most comfortable running Mission Zero for now. It's something worth talking about at the end of the mission, to see if the approach works or not.

[Yzalirk]

1 hour ago, Endgame said:

There's a couple reasons, in my mind.

• Keeping track in and out of character knowledge, especially when the Quest Master splits the party on purpose, was/is often a large source of dramatic irony and tension. Especially when it is done via PM sidequest, and is meant to be something that the player/character experiences personally.
• Time flows weird when the party splits. Allowing instant transmission between two separate parties can lead to paradoxes and plot holes. Let's say that one party gets into a battle that takes a real-life one week to run but happens in ten minutes of game time, whereas the other party goes on an investigation that takes a week but happens over the course of a few hours. All of a sudden, one party might be able to use the comm system to talk to the other party and warn them of something that, on their end, doesn't happen for another 50 minutes.
• Keeping track of what each character ought to know is a little tricky, but it is a constant thing. You can accurately plan around it, and it isn't that hard, because as the Mission Master I am the one giving out the information. In that sense, I can carefully "budget" it in a way that keeps things sane. Throw in comms, and all of a sudden one character's knowledge becomes everyone's knowledge at a given, and the plot can get shattered really quick in some circumstances.

It'd definitely be an adjustment to how we play the game, and all Mission Masters would have to adjust their story structures to match. That's why it is important to talk about this now, while we're still testing. I'll fully admit my bias, by the way: I host a lot more than I play, so I tend to look at issues in the game from a hosting perspective. It's a shortfall of mine. In that sense, I lean "no comms" on this one. However, do players feel that comms would a lot of fun to the game?

I agree with this so much.

Having the party split and experiencing two different scenarios and swapping stories back in Heroica 1.0 was really nice for roleplay.  Then again, no comms system could have been available.

1 hour ago, joeshmoe554 said:

I think there is some advantage to short range communicators (Line of Sight comms or ad hoc system) for the party to interact in a setting like the current one. It seems like a nice hand-wave to expedite party interactions when the party members may be on opposite ends of a room or interacting with different people 50 meters or so apart.  If Faeja mentions her Oozling problem to one party member, you don't need that person to login and communicate it to the other members chatting with the old man in order for them to respond.

I agree that not having comms when the party splits seems like the better approach for the reasons you mentioned.  It is important to remember as well that even if long range comms are standard, there would always be dead zones, or caves that block the signal, or even jammers that some criminals may employ.  If long range comms are standard, they shouldn't always work.

This is also a very good point.  Natural anomalies and the environment can affect the communication between a split party.  Even EMPs and other technology.  But I do agree that it mostly just will not work and essentially become a useless feature.

Honestly I am 50/50 on this.  If we do have this, I highly recommend it being a piece of Equipment you have to buy.  I feel like it would cause more trouble than there needs to be but it does fit the setting well and I can see how useful it can be.  For example, it could be very effective when you have to be stealthy.  It should be treated as a utility item as it really can affect the gameplay.

For Igaz, I made it rather evident that he does not have a comms system.  However, I can change that and justify that his helmet has a built in comms system for this quest rather than just an ear piece or something.  I did something similar with a telescope when I played Mhinak.

[Classic_Spaceman]

56 minutes ago, Endgame said:

That being said, I think the route I am most comfortable taking for this test mission is in-sight, short range comms used to handwave people knowing about certain things in situations like the current city street investigation. However, long-range comms are currently unusable, jammed by the Cydonians.

(And yes, that is why I am wary about giving long-range comms in the first place - because I know Mission Masters will inevitably jam them 90% of the time. I'd rather it be a tool that is selectively granted, rather than always given but mostly taken away, if that makes any sense.)

This is the way I am most comfortable running Mission Zero for now. It's something worth talking about at the end of the mission, to see if the approach works or not.

This works for me - Particularly for Mission Zero. ?
I would rather have long-range comms available, albeit jammed by a ‘handwavium’ field, than not to have them at all. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Classic_Spaceman

[KotZ]

I think comms should be in a case by case basis. Does the QM want to hand them out to players? Cool, they can chat like that. No? Cool, they play like H1.

[Duvors]

I'm honestly not certain about the idea of having comms be an item you can buy as I feel that might fall under 'some comms' which, as Endgame has stated, is unfair. Honestly however I feel that I'd be fine with comms existing if they operated more-or-less as @samurai-turtle suggested. That is, the player has to actively say they're using them (and the players on the other end can choose not to pick up if they feel their characters are too busy) rather then them being always on. And remember, if someone doesn't want to type out a wall of exposition they can always say 'I tell them all I know' or 'I recap the events of the past five weeks' or something like that.

 

On another note though; I feel recent events have brought something rather important to light. The current character sheets have no way of keeping track of what spells a character knows, which is rather important. I've added mine to the one linked from my signature (beneath proficiencies), but I feel we should address this.

[Endgame]

I'll update character sheets with a spell field enc everyone submits their desired spells.

[samurai-turtle]

1 hour ago, Endgame said:

I'll update character sheets with a spell field enc everyone submits their desired spells.

Who still needs submit their spell(s)? I know I already gave you mind. 

[Yzalirk]

Should the Character Sheet also include the character's Level too?  And how will Skill Points be kept track of?

[Duvors]

8 hours ago, Goliath said:

Should the Character Sheet also include the character's Level too?  And how will Skill Points be kept track of?

Well currently character levels don't exist so I don't feel we need to worry about that yet. Tough I do think some thought should be given to keeping track of unassigned Creation Points as players may want to save them in case they need more to increase something then they actually have.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Lord Duvors

[Endgame]

I'll mark Creation Points/Experience Points on your stat sheet. Level doesn't really exist in this ruleset, to be honest - although I think tracking total EXP ever earned will be a good barometer of progress for a given character. You'd be able to seperate them into brackets of 10/25/50/100/150/etc.

Is everyone okay with how I'm ruling on Warding Bond at the moment/am I reading it right? I think having to choose the damage type you wish to defend against gives it some tactical flair.

[Classic_Spaceman]

21 hours ago, Endgame said:

I'll update character sheets with a spell field enc everyone submits their desired spells.

I will use Obfuscate, and play it as a holographic decoy (if I understand correctly what it does). 
 

[Yzalirk]

1 hour ago, Lord Duvors said:

Well currently character levels don't exist so I don't feel we need to worry about that yet. Tough I do think some thought should be given to keeping track of unassigned Creation Points as players may want to save them in case they need more to increase something then they actually have.

I was under the impression that you gain additional points from Leveling Up or by some other means.  A way to keep track of how many you have in case you want to allocate them later on should be added.

1 hour ago, Endgame said:

I'll mark Creation Points/Experience Points on your stat sheet. Level doesn't really exist in this ruleset, to be honest - although I think tracking total EXP ever earned will be a good barometer of progress for a given character. You'd be able to seperate them into brackets of 10/25/50/100/150/etc.

Is everyone okay with how I'm ruling on Warding Bond at the moment/am I reading it right? I think having to choose the damage type you wish to defend against gives it some tactical flair.

The bracket system has me a bit confused.  Exactly what would be the reason for keeping track of just EXP other than character progression?  How will EXP be earned?  Do all battles reward the same amount of EXP?  What about finishing a Quest?  And will proficiency checks reward different amounts of EXP based on difficulty?

I just thought of this as I was typing - perhaps Quests can reward Skill Points.  Maybe even side quests on a Quest too.  Essentially the Quest is given a difficulty rating or something and rewards a certain amount of points based on that.  In case you forget how many points you have accumulated, you can simply look back on the Quests you have completed and see how many points you have been rewarded.

As for Warding Bond, do I have to actually select which resistance I want overall or when I am casting?

[Endgame]

The brackets I mentioned would just be a way for MMs to group together players of similar experience and strength; not anything really hard or firm or fast. For example, if you want an experienced party, you'd ask for agents wit 75 cumulative EXP and up, etc.

The rules, as written, do not actually mention how much points are earned by individual victories. It simply says that winning battles results in the MM giving out as many level up points (which, as far as I can tell, are the same as experience points) as the MM feels appropriate. The battles in Mission Zero will give out between 1-3 points, for example.

Warding Bond's wording is a best ambiguous; it just says that it grants "armor mod" equal to the net success of the dice check. Because there are three armor types, I'd have thought that you have to choose which kind of armor you want to cast, but if people feel it is more balanced for it to grant all three, I'm fine with that.

[Classic_Spaceman]

10 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I will use Obfuscate, and play it as a holographic decoy (if I understand correctly what it does). 
 

On this note, can spells be used outside battles? 
 

[Endgame]

4 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

On this note, can spells be used outside battles? 
 

I would be okay with that; it would count towards your spell uses for the next battle, I would say, because I think unlimited spell usages goes against the idea of having Spirit as the cap for your spell uses. (As always, any interpretation of the rules I make you are free to challenge. )

That being said, I'm not entirely sure how Obfuscate even works in battle; the passage of time isn't defined in battle, nor is a "sensory effect."

[Classic_Spaceman]

4 minutes ago, Endgame said:

I would be okay with that; it would count towards your spell uses for the next battle, I would say, because I think unlimited spell usages goes against the idea of having Spirit as the cap for your spell uses.

Do you mean that the number of times that spells can be cast is equal to a character’s Spirit stat? 
 

6 minutes ago, Endgame said:

That being said, I'm not entirely sure how Obfuscate even works in battle; the passage of time isn't defined in battle, nor is a "sensory effect."

I assume that it is something like what Loki does from 2:10-2:17, for a certain number of rounds. 
 

[Yzalirk]

46 minutes ago, Endgame said:

The brackets I mentioned would just be a way for MMs to group together players of similar experience and strength; not anything really hard or firm or fast. For example, if you want an experienced party, you'd ask for agents wit 75 cumulative EXP and up, etc.

The rules, as written, do not actually mention how much points are earned by individual victories. It simply says that winning battles results in the MM giving out as many level up points (which, as far as I can tell, are the same as experience points) as the MM feels appropriate. The battles in Mission Zero will give out between 1-3 points, for example.

Warding Bond's wording is a best ambiguous; it just says that it grants "armor mod" equal to the net success of the dice check. Because there are three armor types, I'd have thought that you have to choose which kind of armor you want to cast, but if people feel it is more balanced for it to grant all three, I'm fine with that.

Okay, thank you for the clarity.  How would EXP determined when earned?  For example, would each battle always award say 5 EXP and every Quest award 15 EXP?  Obviously these are not 100% set but would it work something like that?

I actually really like that.  Based on the current rules, it seems like these points should be rather easy to obtain.  They appear to be used for everything from upgrading proficiencies to unlocking new ones.  I believe the same applies to the character stats too, correct?

I think Warding Bond should give you all three resistances otherwise it might not seem very useful.  An enemy could have a basic slash attack that deals Kinetic damage and a special attack that may deal Elemental damage.  Having to gamble and guess would make it less practical over a basic healing spell.

[Endgame]

2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Okay, thank you for the clarity.  How would EXP determined when earned?  For example, would each battle always award say 5 EXP and every Quest award 15 EXP?  Obviously these are not 100% set but would it work something like that?

I actually really like that.  Based on the current rules, it seems like these points should be rather easy to obtain.  They appear to be used for everything from upgrading proficiencies to unlocking new ones.  I believe the same applies to the character stats too, correct?

I think Warding Bond should give you all three resistances otherwise it might not seem very useful.  An enemy could have a basic slash attack that deals Kinetic damage and a special attack that may deal Elemental damage.  Having to gamble and guess would make it less practical over a basic healing spell.

Right now there are no set structure on how EXP points are rewarded. We can certainly discuss and build one, but right now EXP is awarded at the MM's discretion.

Right now, EXP can be spent as follows:

• You can spend 2 points to raise one of your Vitality, Strength, Skills, Smarts, or Spirit by one.
• You can spend points on a Proficiency equal to the level of the Profieincy you wish to reach. For example, to go from technology 4 to 5 takes 5 EXP points.

There is actually not much of a randomness element to enemies in this iteration of Heroica. This is something I talked tom WBD about, but essentially, enemies in Heroica 2.0 are built the exact same as heroes, and have all of the same available actions. Every battle is essentially a PVP encounter with the MM controlling the opposing team. In that sense, there's nothing random about it; I'm controlling the enemy party. So I think that actually supports the idea that Warding Bond should be all 3, because realistically if I built an enemy that has access to multiple damage types I would always whack you with the one that you aren't Warding against. Which, from your perspective, would seem terribly rude.

So we will say it is all 3 for now unless it seems too unbalanced/WBD steps in to clarify.

[Yzalirk]

2 minutes ago, Endgame said:

Right now there are no set structure on how EXP points are rewarded. We can certainly discuss and build one, but right now EXP is awarded at the MM's discretion.

Right now, EXP can be spent as follows:

• You can spend 2 points to raise one of your Vitality, Strength, Skills, Smarts, or Spirit by one.
• You can spend points on a Proficiency equal to the level of the Profieincy you wish to reach. For example, to go from technology 4 to 5 takes 5 EXP points.

There is actually not much of a randomness element to enemies in this iteration of Heroica. This is something I talked tom WBD about, but essentially, enemies in Heroica 2.0 are built the exact same as heroes, and have all of the same available actions. Every battle is essentially a PVP encounter with the MM controlling the opposing team. In that sense, there's nothing random about it; I'm controlling the enemy party. So I think that actually supports the idea that Warding Bond should be all 3, because realistically if I built an enemy that has access to multiple damage types I would always whack you with the one that you aren't Warding against. Which, from your perspective, would seem terribly rude.

So we will say it is all 3 for now unless it seems too unbalanced/WBD steps in to clarify.

That actually answers all my concerns, thank you!

I thought that EXP was something completely different but knowing they are essentially Skill Points helps tremendously.

Do the stats work in same way as Proficiencies when it comes to leveling those up?  Would I need to spend 3 EXP points to increase Smarts from 2 to 3, for example, or is it always 2 EXP points?

Also on the subject of Smarts and Proficiencies, I am a bit confused as to how you can obtain more.  From my understanding, everyone's Smarts starts at 1.  If I increase Smarts to 2, I can learn a fourth Proficiency, and so on?  Would I need to spend an extra 1 EXP Point to choose a new Proficiency or do I just choose a new Proficiency when I increase Smarts?

I also hope that there will be brief descriptions for what the Proficiencies do and how they will be applicable in Quests. 

[samurai-turtle]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

Do the stats work in same way as Proficiencies when it comes to leveling those up?  Would I need to spend 3 EXP points to increase Smarts from 2 to 3, for example, or is it always 2 EXP points?

Also on the subject of Smarts and Proficiencies, I am a bit confused as to how you can obtain more.  From my understanding, everyone's Smarts starts at 1.  If I increase Smarts to 2, I can learn a fourth Proficiency, and so on?  Would I need to spend an extra 1 EXP Point to choose a new Proficiency or do I just choose a new Proficiency when I increase Smarts?

I also hope that there will be brief descriptions for what the Proficiencies do and how they will be applicable in Quests. 

The way I understood it is #2 to #3 you need to spend 3 points and then to up it to #4 you need to spend 4 points, and so on. 

This little conversation might help answer the "second" question. 

On 11/9/2019 at 3:10 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

Everyone starts with 3 and the capacity to buy a 4th with points. After that you’ll need to buy a 2nd Smart to start a 5th proficiency. 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 7:37 PM, samurai-turtle said:

Just so I get everything (before I make Tester-Three ), I would start with three proficiencies, then to get a fourth one I would need to "buy" it. And then to get a fifth one I would first need to "upgrade" smarts to "level two". And just out of curiosity if I would want to get a sixth proficiencies, would I need to "upgrade" smarts again? 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 10:26 PM, Waterbrick Down said:

Correct and correct

The "third" item would be helpful if answered. 

[Endgame]

First combat is up and running! I'm sure there will be questions, so I am happy to answer.

23 hours ago, Goliath said:

That actually answers all my concerns, thank you!

I thought that EXP was something completely different but knowing they are essentially Skill Points helps tremendously.

Do the stats work in same way as Proficiencies when it comes to leveling those up?  Would I need to spend 3 EXP points to increase Smarts from 2 to 3, for example, or is it always 2 EXP points?

Also on the subject of Smarts and Proficiencies, I am a bit confused as to how you can obtain more.  From my understanding, everyone's Smarts starts at 1.  If I increase Smarts to 2, I can learn a fourth Proficiency, and so on?  Would I need to spend an extra 1 EXP Point to choose a new Proficiency or do I just choose a new Proficiency when I increase Smarts?

I also hope that there will be brief descriptions for what the Proficiencies do and how they will be applicable in Quests. 

Stats/attributes (Skills, smarts, etc.) are always 2 EXP points for a +1 to that stat, as far as I can currently tell.

Smarts is a stat that means "How many more proficiencies can I learn above the base 3?" E.g. a Smarts stat of 5 means you can know 5+3=8 proficiencies. Essentially, if you had a Smart stat of zero (somehow), you would still be able to know a max of three proficiencies. So in effect, all heroes start with a max of, technically, four. It takes one EXP point to learn a new proficiency, because think about it; technically, you're increasing it from level 0 to level 1.

Here is my breakdown on how I would interpret each proficiency, personally. Future MMs will obviously have different interpretations at times, and these could very well get heavily revised or recontexualized. Ones in Red have a direct influence on combat.

Acrobatics: Would be used for feats that require bursts of insane body control or skill. E.g. swinging across a chasm on a vine or something.
Artillery: Used to buff damage from artillery weapons.
Arcana: Used in spells. I could see situational uses where you would also want to use it out of battle, too, if you were dealing with something magical.
Athletics: Used for sustained feats of physical exertion, e.g. chasing after a fleeing thief.
Culture: Used to gleam information about a people, planet, or society.
Deception: Used to lie or otherwise misdirect, through whatever available means.
Engineering: Used to tinker, alter, or create solutions to problems, using materials on hand/provided by the MM.
Insight: Can be used to notice potentially important but otherwise unseen details about a person, place, or situation.
Intimidation: Used to frighten NPCs into a desirable course of action.
Long Range Weapons: Used to buff damage from Long Range weapons.
Medicine: Used for healing the ailments of people or animals encountered, e.g. encountering a space-horse with a broken leg. I could also see it being used to attempt out of battle healing? But that seems borderline cheating.
Melee Weapons: Used to buff damage from Melee weapons.
Nature: Used in spells. Could also see it used to better interact with, to gleam more info from, or to direct flora fauna.
Perception: Useful for detecting traps or deception.
Performance: Could be used to engage in the arts (playing an instrument, drawing something) but also as a way of portraying yourself as someone else (acting)... could even be used for a Deception type role in that sense.
Piloting: Used when operating vehicles.
Occult: Used in spells. Could also see it come in handy with dealing with anything supernatural.
Religion: Used in spells. Would also have some out of combat uses, as a way of learning about or potentially using religion as a persuasion tool.
Short Range Weapons: Used to buff damage from Short Range weapons.
Sleight of Hand: Used when attempting to steal, pick pocket, or otherwise do crafty hand motions.
Stealth: Used when trying to conceal oneself.
Survival: Used when trying to utilize the environment (natural or otherwise) to personal positive effect.
Technology: Used to increase access and mastery over certain pieces of technology.

 

22 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

The "third" item would be helpful if answered. 

I believe part of my above spiel answered that, but let me know if I misinterpreted the question.
 

[Yzalirk]

Thank you for the list @Endgame, it helps tremendously! 

I was hoping that Athletics would also help avoid getting hit from attacks.  Hopefully that will be a thing?

Performance seems like a really fun Proficiency.  I have a couple of amusing ideas for it haha!  Would it be possible to have a Bard type of character with this Proficiency?

[Classic_Spaceman]

35 minutes ago, Endgame said:

Here is my breakdown on how I would interpret each proficiency, personally. Future MMs will obviously have different interpretations at times, and these could very well get heavily revised or recontexualized. Ones in Red have a direct influence on combat.

Acrobatics: Would be used for feats that require bursts of insane body control or skill. E.g. swinging across a chasm on a vine or something.
Artillery: Used to buff damage from artillery weapons.
Arcana: Used in spells. I could see situational uses where you would also want to use it out of battle, too, if you were dealing with something magical.
Athletics: Used for sustained feats of physical exertion, e.g. chasing after a fleeing thief.
Culture: Used to gleam information about a people, planet, or society.
Deception: Used to lie or otherwise misdirect, through whatever available means.
Engineering: Used to tinker, alter, or create solutions to problems, using materials on hand/provided by the MM.
Insight: Can be used to notice potentially important but otherwise unseen details about a person, place, or situation.
Intimidation: Used to frighten NPCs into a desirable course of action.
Long Range Weapons: Used to buff damage from Long Range weapons.
Medicine: Used for healing the ailments of people or animals encountered, e.g. encountering a space-horse with a broken leg. I could also see it being used to attempt out of battle healing? But that seems borderline cheating.
Melee Weapons: Used to buff damage from Melee weapons.
Nature: Used in spells. Could also see it used to better interact with, to gleam more info from, or to direct flora fauna.
Perception: Useful for detecting traps or deception.
Performance: Could be used to engage in the arts (playing an instrument, drawing something) but also as a way of portraying yourself as someone else (acting)... could even be used for a Deception type role in that sense.
Piloting: Used when operating vehicles.
Occult: Used in spells. Could also see it come in handy with dealing with anything supernatural.
Religion: Used in spells. Would also have some out of combat uses, as a way of learning about or potentially using religion as a persuasion tool.
Short Range Weapons: Used to buff damage from Short Range weapons.
Sleight of Hand: Used when attempting to steal, pick pocket, or otherwise do crafty hand motions.
Stealth: Used when trying to conceal oneself.
Survival: Used when trying to utilize the environment (natural or otherwise) to personal positive effect.
Technology: Used to increase access and mastery over certain pieces of technology.

Could Proficiencies also be used to bolster specific spells (e.g. Deception for ‘Obfuscate’, Medicine for healing spells, etc)? 
 

[samurai-turtle]

1 hour ago, Endgame said:

Medicine: Used for healing the ailments of people or animals encountered, e.g. encountering a space-horse with a broken leg. I could also see it being used to attempt out of battle healing? But that seems borderline cheating

Why is "Medicine" not used for "healing spells"? I would think if someone (like me) want to make a Battle Field Medic it would be helpful. 

And for combat movement could we move diagonally or is it just left, right, up and down? 

Plus, can we target enemies from a diagonal?