HMS Argonaut, 38 gun frigate, WIP

[Wellesley]

Hello dear ship-builders,

I wasn't active for a long time now.
Some of you might remember me from building the "HMS Bulwark", a 74 gun third rate ship of the line. It was in March, when she got a new bow. I never really liked the old one, way too angular. Then I came across the quarter saucer base (30201) of the 1998 Stingray Stormer (6198-1).
It perfectly fitted the desired shape.

But now for my frigate, probably being named "HMS Argonaut". She will become a 38 gun fifth rate frigate.

More pictures can be seen, following one of the flickr links. Supposed to be a sister ship to the Bulwark, I think about changing the white stripe back to yellow. What do you think?

Also for similarity I will probably keep the windows on her stern. They may look to big, but I already tried smaller ones and have to say, I like the current ones better.

I hope to progress faster than last time. It mostly depends on me willing to buy the needed bricks.
As for the rig and last details, I already have the ideas.

So far so good.
I hope you all continue to have great joy reassembling bricks into sightworthy constructions!

Wellesley.

[iammac]

Hi there Wellesley! 

Looks like a good fresh run to loosen up the bones. Coming along well I think! 

I personally prefer the white stripe, but look at me, with no posted ships to my name.  Hopefully I'll be putting one up soon. I could learn a lot from mates like yourself.

Look forward to seeing the progress. Keep us posted!

 

MAC

[Bregir]

Looks really good, Wellesley!

Building a ship this size on prefabs is a bold move, but to my surprise, her proportions are looking really good. How many mid sections are you using? I am working on a similar scale frigate for BoBS, but have use hinges for the lower hull. That can look great, as long as they are positioned well, but they quickly turn out of place... :/ I will need to rework the beakhead entirely, so don't put too much stock in that. (And I seem to have forgotten catheads...)

HMS Sirius - WIP by Christian West, on Flickr

I really like the long sleek hull, and your cabin is looking good - I like the use of those windows.

Can't wait to follow your progress!

[Wellesley]

Thanks iammac and Bregir.

What I didn't mention is, that I also could buy bricks for a new stripe. Like beige. Maybe I even have enough of them to test it on one side.

@Bregir: I already have seen your ships on flickr and admire your work. Hope, to see more in future.
I'm using the stern part and three mid sections I have from the Black Seas Barracuda set. Initially I only wanted to use prefab hulls including the bow. Just for the sake of the old Lego ship experiences I made with them as a child. So I ordered three more mid sections to then look, which type of ship I could build with that. But I didn't realize by then there was a new, darker brown. So they didn't fit together. That made me come up with a new plan, building my own bow and simultaneously making the hull wider.

While actually only gaining two studs of width at all, it seems to make the right difference. Together with using hinges for the railings on deck it simulates a diminution towards astern.

Thanks for calling it "sleek". That's absolutely what I had in mind.

[Bodi]

Looking good! It's huge. Though I'm little worried about all these blank spaces under the bow. Is there any possibility to connect the hinged slopes with the "keel"?  You'll have a more solid base I think, but if you don't plan to move it frequently, it's ok to leave it like this.

[Wellesley]

Don't worry, it's not that fragile:) Either because it is an outdated version or one just can't see it properly. But the slopes are supported and held in position on the layers above. It surely isn't made for direct impact. But I think it serves it purpose enough to withstand some moving around. As long as you grab it more astern. A bigger concern for me are the slits that originate from hinging the slopes. Yet, this is something I only criticise on my own builds, never on other's, so it might be not that fatal.

And yes, I considered joining the BoBS. I was super excited, when it started, but didn't feel to have enough time to participate. Maybe I will rethink that. All the Lego is at my parents house, so I'm not able to build all the time. I'll PM you later for some more specific questions.

[Bodi]

Attached to the upper layers, very clever, I haven't thought of that, I may steal borrow this idea to use on my next ship. As to the slits, I think it's rather inevitable with the technique of hinges, hinges always leave some gaps, alternatively, we may also use some curved bricks and tiles to build a roundish bow, what do you think?

And don't worry about not being to build frequently, there isn't any attendance requirements in Bobs, really.

[Wellesley]

1 hour ago, Bodi said:

we may also use some curved bricks and tiles to build a roundish bow

Yeah, so far those bring the best results, I think. Unfortunately I have almost none of them. When getting back to Lego in 2012 I didn't even know, they exist in such a variety. I was very excited to see all the new developed bricks. Would it not be that expensive, I'd have tons of them.

For my longboat I bought some in green. I'm very happy with the result.

For future projects I will also consider them on bigger ships.

[Bodi]

That's a nice boat, I like the use of hinges plates here, although I'm not very sure how the minifigs would do if they have to use the oars, by removing the seats first?

[Wellesley]

On 11/18/2018 at 2:14 AM, Bodi said:

I'm not very sure how the minifigs would do if they have to use the oars, by removing the seats first?

Oh. Well, I expect my subordinates to be creative=)

Made some progress on the Argonaut. Will definately use beige for the stripe:

Also the railings on the bow are finished:

I just think it looks a bit too high and clumsy:

Maybe because the catheads are so low in comparison to the railings and the keel could extend more out from the hull. Looks too short for me:/ What dou you think?

 

Greetings,
Wellesley!

[Legostone]

Looking good! I can see your troubles with the bow, and I have a handful of inspirations for you:

 

So, what do all these have in common?

- slopes for the beakhead start out at least one stud out from the bottom of the hull (some even two)
- bottom headrail starts at a little bit lower then the gundeck, ideally still in the black stripe below
- top of the beakhead is about the same height as the upper deck or even further up (with the figurehead mounted in front of it)
- the use at least 2 longer slopes

To get the mast out of the way you can move the mount up or change the angle a bit.

I also like putting a small deck between the headrails, only have one example pic of a current WIP:

I usually keep a handful of ship plans around while building a ship - the headrails and small deck around the bow seem to form a triangle most of the time (angle depends on the type of vessel)

Hope some of this helps for the bow 

 

Planning to make the stern custom too? Seems a little odd with everything else custom  Also the connection between custom to prefab seems a little rough - coming from a 4 long section to a much longer section with the prefabs.

[Wellesley]

Thank you @Legostone,

the links and pictures were helpful indeed. Will try it next time, I have time.
Usually I look at plans and models before beginning to build and then again when I run into problems or just cross checking from time to time. To have them around while building of course is way more utile.

Clever use of the yellow antennas! And nice attachment of your figurehead. I think I have this piece only in light grey, so no use for me:/
I might purchase it after all, if I decide to use another figurehead.

Man, you got me:D I already was content with the stern part.
But you are right about the roughness, using only four studs to get to the width of the prefab parts. I will lenghten it to twelve studs, removing on prefab part. That should work without having to rebuild the hull above the brown.
 

[Bodi]

@Wellesley You've made a lot of progress since the last update, I'm impressed. The railings look very good, and I like all these details on the bow. And Legostone is right about the bow, it would look better if you could manage to recreate that triangle thingy. 

Concerning the problem of clumsy bow, my idea is to have a low silhouette and build it narrower:

 

[Wellesley]

First, thanks for the suggestions. Here are some new pictures:

I removed one of the prefab hull elements and widened the thus created area:

I simultaneously used the opportunity to thicken the black stripe. Following the line that separates brown and black towards the bow, it might be worth a try to recolour the beakhead completely in brown.

The catheads are placed one brick higher. Looking at the triangle it creates the impression that the keel sticks out too much, but given the angle of the bowsprit I can't get it closer while keeping the height.
Overall I'm happy enough to let it be as it is:

I'm still trying to get the accurate term for the foremost part of the keel, where the figurehead sits. As I understand forepeak, beak and beakhead all refer to other things. Anyone being able to provide some clarification? Thanks

[Bodi]

There's not much to say about the bow, it looks perfect to me, I like the railings. 

[Roadmonkeytj]

Looking great...  The improvements do her justice!   May I suggest swapping the white windows for yellow now that the stripe is beige ... 

[kurigan]

Not sure exactly to which part you’re referring so I put the terms which apply in bold so you can look them up.

 

The outer most part to which the figurehead is attached and where the head rails terminate is called the beakhead. Below that the portion of the prow or stem which counter curves to break the surface tension is a cutwater. Further down, below the water line, the forefoot curves back under the hull to meet the keel; which is essentially the spine of the ship, running the rest of the length to the stern post. The entire forward part of the ship, which meets the sea, it called the bow. Those basket like railings are called head rails and form a kind of toilet seat for use by the common seaman. Larger ships, with enough space to afford to them would also augment or replace the old fashioned railings with seats of ease. The lower most portion of the mast which protrudes out ahead of the hull is the bowsprit. Attached to that, extending it further, are the jib booms. The first vertical mast is the foremast and the portion of the ship’s hull which makes a wall for preventing the sea from washing over the decks is the breakwater.

 

From what I see here it seems to me that your figure head is too big and the beakhead is much more structure than needed to support it. Historically, most figureheads were carved to be simple without a lot of extended limbs to break of in the ocean. Often they were placed to be the very end of the beakhead, so that there was nothing more above them to interfere with the bowsprit. They were rarely of life size except on the largest ships and not all were anthropomorphic, taking the shape of an animal, crest or abstract decoration instead. Legostone’s image of Essex shows well what I’m referring to here. The figure’s head is above the beakhead and only slightly higher than the deck of the focsle allowing the bowsprit to sit at a low 30 degree angle (which would allow her to carry more and/or larger head sails between the bowsprit and fore mast).

 

On my own models I rarely have any decoration on the prow, simply because I don’t warrant them large enough to accommodate any, in reference both to the fashion of their type in history and in the physical size of their construction in Lego. What I have used as decoration has been small of the 1 X 1 variety, like a parrot in one instance or a flower in another. Keep in mind, that though the scales of our respective works are different they are similar in size. Even my tiny sloops are wider than pre-fab hull sections by several studs.

 

There you go, lots of free information, do with it as you will.

 

 

[Wellesley]

 Oops, thought that I had already thanked you for the clarifications on the terminology and the detailed critics, @kurigan
I reworked the beakhead to make it just a little bit smaller. But I will leave the figurehead there, given that the ship isn't historically accurate anyways and the scale is more in the range of the illusion scale, which makes a handful of details hard or impossible to integrate. Therefore I take the freedom to include some other things, like in this case, a figurehead or the unusual doors on the gundeck.

For smaller ships like yours, the minifig scale truly give marvellous results (at least with your building skills). But I've chosen a smaller scale for my cutter as well, to fit the other vessels. If I had a ship like your's in front of me, I would probably be a bit more enthusiastic about realism. Even my newest project, which actually starts with a plan, will only be based on an actual ship, but have some changes. Only the rig, especially its proportions, is something, I really take my time for.

A frigate or ship of the line in minifig scale would be to big for my taste (or wallet?), a post-ship or brig would be the biggest I go. If at all, I really came to like the minifig illusion scale.

Tomorrow I hopefully get the rope for the rig, I'm not content with the one I used on my previous ships. This time it really is made for model ships and not to cord up packages:D

[Wellesley]

@kurigan I stumbled upon your entry post in the MSW forum and from what I've read it seems that you were sometimes criticised for breaking the system and not that popular amongst the LEGO community. How can that be? Your ships are the best I've seen so far. There are other models that are way more famous but not that convincing and not even close to yours. Guess it is the same old story about presenting and hyping.

By the way, is there any ship related project, you are currently working on?

[kurigan]

On 4/20/2019 at 11:30 AM, Wellesley said:

@kurigan I stumbled upon your entry post in the MSW forum ... How can that be?

Nope, not having that conversation. 

 

On 3/26/2019 at 6:23 PM, Wellesley said:

 Oops, thought that I had already thanked you for the clarifications on the terminology and the detailed critics, @kurigan
I reworked the beakhead to make it just a little bit smaller. But I will leave the figurehead there, given that the ship isn't historically accurate anyways and the scale is more in the range of the illusion scale, which makes a handful of details hard or impossible to integrate. Therefore I take the freedom to include some other things, like in this case, a figurehead or the unusual doors on the gundeck.

For smaller ships like yours, the minifig scale truly give marvellous results (at least with your building skills). But I've chosen a smaller scale for my cutter as well, to fit the other vessels. If I had a ship like your's in front of me, I would probably be a bit more enthusiastic about realism. Even my newest project, which actually starts with a plan, will only be based on an actual ship, but have some changes. Only the rig, especially its proportions, is something, I really take my time for.

A frigate or ship of the line in minifig scale would be to big for my taste (or wallet?), a post-ship or brig would be the biggest I go. If at all, I really came to like the minifig illusion scale.

Tomorrow I hopefully get the rope for the rig, I'm not content with the one I used on my previous ships. This time it really is made for model ships and not to cord up packages:D

k, you do you 

 

On 4/20/2019 at 11:30 AM, Wellesley said:

By the way, is there any ship related project, you are currently working on?

Yes.