legoman666

Printing and laser cutting replacement cloth sails

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10 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

I'm afraid that it is you who has made the logical error. 

Hitherto, two groups of people were buying the original sails: purists and non-purists. With these new sails, the non-purists now have an alternative source and will buy fewer of the original sails, reducing the demand for them and therefore reduce the price. 

I disagree.  This is what I think.
Case 1: All those ships whose sails have been made replicas have dozens of other pieces who are either rare or uncommon so you already need a lot of money to complete a ship and once you make it 99% original you surely don't  spoil it for a replica sail. So if you want to make your 90s ship from scratch, you don't buy replicas.
Case 2: You already have your ship from the 90s but your sail is damaged. You are not a purist. You want to replace it. Considering the cost of an original one, you don't even think about it. You just buy the replica or  you put a custom one on it. 

Non-purists (AKA Non-AFOLs) do not buy the original sails, so they do not affect the market.
If they affect it, surely they do not help lowering the prices.

But after all these are just opinions and we do not know for sure.

What we know for sure is that a small "REPLICA - NOT ORIGINAL LEGO" on the sail would 100% suffice to solve all problems and it is no big deal for the maker.

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I don't want all of that scrawled all over my sails. The originals have "&copy LEGO" which is discrete. The replicas are not marked as being from LEGO and the slight blackening of the edges should identify that they have been laser cut. If someone mis-sells something to you then you claim a refund.

There will be plenty of people around who want to complete a set for its own sake and won't mind whether it is 100% original. They would've gone to the secondhand market in the past when they had no other choice (you can't just miss out on the sails they are one of the biggest bits of the ships) but now can take their trade elsewhere reducing the demand.

Cafe Corner has plenty of rare or uncommon piece/colour combinations so to save money when Bricklinking I substitute them (or even redesign bits of it to suit my own preferences). When I get around to rebuilding my 6271 I shall not hesitate to do the same where parts have broken or yellowed and replacements are scarce.

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17 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

When I get around to rebuilding my 6271 I shall not hesitate to do the same where parts have broken or yellowed and replacements are scarce.

Honestly since that is only for display, what's the difference between a ship with custom sails and a complete custom ship like third party bricks?
I'm not criticizing/polemicizing, since I would never buy replicas I'm trying to understand someone else's point of view.

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I think they look good but, like with custom prints on LEGO parts or third party minifigures, do worry about them affecting the marketplace. I would have been tempted to change the designs from LEGO's so you were not producing what can be considered fakes of the real thing but customs that look just as good.

If someone wants to make their ship look good and isn't a purist, customs designs are just as good.

It's like the fake minifigures on ali express. I don't mind the ones that are designs that LEGO didn't make. Whereas I wouldn't buy the ones that LEGO did make.

18 hours ago, Kalahari134 said:

Cafe Corner has plenty of rare or uncommon piece/colour combinations so to save money when Bricklinking I substitute them (or even redesign bits of it to suit my own preferences).

 

I guess the thing here is would you buy a fake part made to look exactly the same apart from the LEGO logo that someone else has molded or 3D printed rather than use other genuine LEGO parts to solve the problem? By substitute do you mean substituting using genuine LEGO, or substituting using fake parts produced because the originals are expensive. Something similar happened with parts of the UCS MF (rigging and dish).

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If I cannot get hold of a replacement part for a reasonable price then I redesign the model to fit a different one in (6-high door in the CC Hotel entrance because the 5-high one is out of production for example).

You can't really do that with sails because there usually isn't an alternative. I'd prefer to keep the Imperial Flagship design a) because of nostalgia and b) so it matches the flag pieces. 

The only non-LEGO ABS parts I've bought have been BBB train wheels and larger radius curved track, neither of which are ever likely to see a LEGO production line. 

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I don't know what to say other than: if you don't like using non-lego elements in your build, then don't. But don't force your opinion on others.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

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These custom sails look great!

My only concern is that, being replicas, less-informed buyers could potentially think they're originals if they bought them from the right source, unless you mark them in some way. (Yes, the burnt edges and lack of official LEGO printing give it away to us, but some people don't know this!)

However, this:

On 1/17/2019 at 5:53 AM, Itaria No Shintaku said:

What we know for sure is that a small "REPLICA - NOT ORIGINAL LEGO" on the sail would 100% suffice to solve all problems and it is no big deal for the maker.

...is exactly what you should not print. In attempting to solve one problem, that phrase would illegally use the name "LEGO," and if TLG caught you selling a product with their name used in any way, they would hunt you down and shut you down. If you're serious about selling them, I'd just add the word "Replica" somewhere in small letters.

On 1/17/2019 at 5:53 AM, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Non-purists (AKA Non-AFOLs)

That's... an incredibly strong statement of opinion to make in a post concerning custom parts. I'm pretty sure the LEGO customizing community disagrees with this sentiment. You've plainly demonstrated your disdain for all things custom in your posts in this topic. :grin:

On 1/18/2019 at 8:47 AM, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Honestly since that is only for display, what's the difference between a ship with custom sails and a complete custom ship like third party bricks?
I'm not criticizing/polemicizing, since I would never buy replicas I'm trying to understand someone else's point of view.

Uhh... there's an immense difference! Plenty of people have these old classic ships, but if they were childhood items, the sails probably aren't in great shape. If the rest of the ship is fine, and replica sails are priced lower than originals, why not just let people go ahead and do what they want? It sounds somewhat denigrating to suggest that they should go fully third party.

Plenty of talented shipbuilders, including almost all the "Experts" here on EB, use custom sails & rigging.

On 1/18/2019 at 12:47 PM, legoman666 said:

I don't know what to say other than: if you don't like using non-lego elements in your build, then don't. But don't force your opinion on others.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Agreed.

Edited by Captain Dee

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14 hours ago, Captain Dee said:

Plenty of talented shipbuilders, including almost all the "Experts" here on EB, use custom sails & rigging.

On 1/18/2019 at 7:47 PM, legoman666 said:

I don't know what to say other than: if you don't like using non-lego elements in your build, then don't. But don't force your opinion on others.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Agreed. 

Agreed x2

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15 hours ago, Captain Dee said:

 

However, this:

...is exactly what you should not print. In attempting to solve one problem, that phrase would illegally use the name "LEGO," and if TLG caught you selling a product with their name used in any way, they would hunt you down and shut you down. If you're serious about selling them, I'd just add the word "Replica" somewhere in small letters.

That's... an incredibly strong statement of opinion to make in a post concerning custom parts. I'm pretty sure the LEGO customizing community disagrees with this sentiment. You've plainly demonstrated your disdain for all things custom in your posts in this topic. :grin:

Uhh... there's an immense difference! Plenty of people have these old classic ships, but if they were childhood items, the sails probably aren't in great shape. If the rest of the ship is fine, and replica sails are priced lower than originals, why not just let people go ahead and do what they want? It sounds somewhat denigrating to suggest that they should go fully third party.

Plenty of talented shipbuilders, including almost all the "Experts" here on EB, use custom sails & rigging.

 

We agree on the fact that you should not write the LEGO word on it.
Still there is a huge difference between a replica and a counterfeit. A replica is something you clearly instantly recognize as not original. A counterfeit needs a lot of attention. If there is a very small word "replica" on it, still it qualifies as a counterfeit.
And I don't think anybody would like that.

As for the AFOL/NOT AFOL, it just depends. When you are able to buy something original, but you don't and you buy a replica/counterfeit, IMHO you are not an AFOL. That's the way I do think. 

As for letting people do what they want, I'm not in any far way condemning anyone or preventing anyone from spending their money the way they want if it doesn't break any laws.
I apologize if any of my statements sounds like I would prevent someone from spending his money legally. 

Custom sails/rigging that LEGO did not produce ever are fine to me. I would never use such, because they are non LEGO elements, but that is up to any people's choice.
What I don't like much (not condemn) is to use not something that is entirely custom, but something that TLG as indeed produced, in a replica way.

I'll try to express myself crystal clear since english is alas my third language and sometimes I recognize I'm not pretty able to make myself understood.

Please understand that this is just the way think.
If you have the Skull's Eye Schooner, and for some reason a sail is damaged, I think it's pretty logical to buy an original one, so you have all original and not just 5 originals and 1 replica.
If you do not have the Skull's Eye Schooner and you want to rebrick it, after you spent a lot of money for the other parts (which are expensive) I find quite illogical to buy replica sails. 
If you own the Skull's Eye Schooner and all your sails are damaged, still having the rest of the original pieces leads to think you'll buy original sails.

I find instead useful to have replica sails if you want to MOC something. Like, you have some spare hulls and you want to make a ship that blends in with the Skull's Eye Schooner, then you can buy replica sails.
I won't do nevetheless, nor like projects with such in them, but that's ok.

Please do remember that these are just my opinions, we're here just to talk and exchange our point of view.
So while I'm asked (and I have no problems) in understanding that someone can use non-LEGO parts in their models, I think it's pretty equal for people to understand that there are also guys who would never use a non-LEGO part if building a LEGO model.
There are pretty solid reasons for this.


 

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Generally speaking I agree with you about buying / not buying replica / counterfeit items when originals are available. Generally. In this case we're talking about highly specialized, very rare items, many of which went out of production decades ago. They're fragile (compared to standard bricks) and often don't age well. The supply of originals is constantly decreasing. They're expensive, which is reason enough for some people to pursue other options. (LEGO is an expensive hobby, and not everyone is willing to fork over money for a rare replacement.) It's not like a counterfeit 1x2 brick, that's in constant production by LEGO in a hundred different colors.

You keep saying "logically, do this" or "logically, do that" but it's based only on your opinion as a purist. Customizers (who naturally feel otherwise) do not accept this as logical at all. Your English looks really good, and it feels like you're trying to force your opinion on customizers, even if that's not your intention. (And no, I don't use custom stuff, apart from ship rigging elements that can't be done with standard parts.)

I implore you to allow each individual to determine for him/her self if he/she is an AFOL. Repeatedly posting such strong opinions about non-purists in a topic by and essentially for non-purists sounds condescending and a little bit like... trolling.

Your last paragraph strikes me as... ironic. Customizers already understand the purist point of view and are fine with it, and rarely call out purists for being purists for that reason. This should work both ways. You say you don't have a problem with people using non-LEGO parts... if so, then you probably should just let this thing go. The more you post, the more it sounds like you're trying to convince customizers that they're wrong.

If I said what I think about Star Wars in that forum, I'd start a big fight. So I don't go there. If you're anti-custom, I really think you should just ignore the stuff. The basis of your argument is really purist vs non-purist, and this is strictly a matter of opinion, with no right or wrong. You can argue endlessly about it, but it's still just an opinion.

In other words, play nice. :classic:

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8 hours ago, Captain Dee said:

Generally speaking I agree with you about buying / not buying replica / counterfeit items when originals are available. Generally. In this case we're talking about highly specialized, very rare items, many of which went out of production decades ago. They're fragile (compared to standard bricks) and often don't age well. The supply of originals is constantly decreasing. They're expensive, which is reason enough for some people to pursue other options. (LEGO is an expensive hobby, and not everyone is willing to fork over money for a rare replacement.) It's not like a counterfeit 1x2 brick, that's in constant production by LEGO in a hundred different colors.

You keep saying "logically, do this" or "logically, do that" but it's based only on your opinion as a purist. Customizers (who naturally feel otherwise) do not accept this as logical at all. Your English looks really good, and it feels like you're trying to force your opinion on customizers, even if that's not your intention. (And no, I don't use custom stuff, apart from ship rigging elements that can't be done with standard parts.)

I implore you to allow each individual to determine for him/her self if he/she is an AFOL. Repeatedly posting such strong opinions about non-purists in a topic by and essentially for non-purists sounds condescending and a little bit like... trolling.

Your last paragraph strikes me as... ironic. Customizers already understand the purist point of view and are fine with it, and rarely call out purists for being purists for that reason. This should work both ways. You say you don't have a problem with people using non-LEGO parts... if so, then you probably should just let this thing go. The more you post, the more it sounds like you're trying to convince customizers that they're wrong.

If I said what I think about Star Wars in that forum, I'd start a big fight. So I don't go there. If you're anti-custom, I really think you should just ignore the stuff. The basis of your argument is really purist vs non-purist, and this is strictly a matter of opinion, with no right or wrong. You can argue endlessly about it, but it's still just an opinion.

In other words, play nice. :classic:

While I agree on 99% of what you said, there are ways in which customizers do not play nice towards so-called purists, and this is when they put counterfeits on the market. 
Which happens, just some short times ago knowing the value of Series 18 Policeman, I knew for sure people who were printing them (after all it's just printing a black torso and a 1x2 white tile, the rest is already on the market).
Or I know people printing the 2by2 white tile which serves as medical records for the Series1 Nurse, which is around 10/15€ on bricklink. It's pretty difficult to understand you're dealing with a counterfeit since it's printed on a 2x2 ORIGINAL LEGO tile.

So I just posted because I think it is pretty important that these sails are clearly marked as replicas in an unquestionable way, so that these parts still are usable by non-purists and they do not deceive purists.

The only thing we can discuss forever, and that is absolutely NOT trolling on my behalf, is "which percertage of your model is non LEGO"?
I mean, since as a "purist" (It's annoying for me to define myself as such) I already know the answer which is 0%, which difference does it make between 1%, 2% and 10%?
There are no written rules. Take this: there are people who will use custom sail and riggings because LEGO did not make enough/decent ones. 
There are people who will use custom minifigure parts (like Brickarms/Brickforge ones, or custom made) because LEGO did not make that specific part, or not in the color you would like to use.
There are also people who will print parts to customize them because LEGO not only hasn't made them yet, but probably won't ever (like your logo on a torso).
There are people putting non LEGO parts in sections of the MOC that are not visible to the external audience.

Even customizers are "puristers" compared to other customizers. 

I don't assume that I am right or a customizer is wrong. There is no wrong or right, there's just the way everyone deals with it.
I just think that LEGO is about stimulizing someone's fantasy, and to be creative.... so if you find a way to represent what you have in mind using the given elements, you're using imagination and creativity.
If you build that part from scratch exactly the very way you need it... I don't know. I don't say it's wrong of course. But I can't say I like that either.

I hope this clarifies. I beg pardon if I even remotely looked like trolling. Really not my intention.
And I am sorry if I made someone feel blue for what I wrote. Not my intention this either.
But to play fair, I really mean what I wrote about making replicas being replicas and not counterfeits. 
The rest is just what Shintaku thinks, and shouldn't really matter to anyone to an extent they feel sad/bad. Really.


 

Edited by Itaria No Shintaku
typo

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1 hour ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

I hope this clarifies.

It does. :thumbup: Sounds good to me!

And yeah, that kind of counterfeiting is hard to deal with. :wacko:

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