Protecting MOC instruction designers. Crowdfunding.

[Bublehead]

@zux has a point on IP property and making money off of something.  You can’t be calling your MOC a Bugatti and sell instructions for it as a Bugatti without the VW Groups permission (i.e. TLG license for Bugatti Chiron) So the same would hold true for a person selling instructions.  The die cast model makers have to pay royalties too. Funny thing is the actual shape of a car is protected, so even taking the name off of something might not even make it legal.

But all of this is kinda moot.  Nobody is making a mint selling instructions, and the third party knockoffs are pretty much untouchable in China. And just like when they rip off TLG, they create their own set of “instructions” for these MOC’s so actual copyright violation is arguable.  It is very hard to copy protect a design that incorporates a universal building system at it’s core. 

[TeamThrifty]

 

@brunojj1 You deserve to be able to charge whatever you want for the time and effort you've put in, 100%.. but anything in the public domain is likely to be copied and stolen. Unless you're a multi-national with an army of lawyers, there's very little you can do.

Some crowd funding theory is naive at best.. chances of any kind of protection of IP being achieved? Zero. As soon as you sell a single copy of the instructions (or your album, or movie, or software) then there's a chance someone will steal it.

 

 

[brunojj1]

19 minutes ago, zux said:

I like the MOCs you guys produce. They raise a bar very high. However I might state not the most common point of view - my concern we might be talking about double standards here. Isn't profiting (selling MOC instructions) based on someone else's popularity (insert any car brand model) considered a theft too? I highly doubt you guys pay royalty to MB, BMW, McLaren, Lamborghini and etc. That's pretty much what Lepin does, but with MOC designers.

Good point. As designer I have to take that risk too. But having no trouble so far, the car manufacturers don´t mind. They don´t endorse or sponsor me on the other hand.

Side note: Recently I was contacted by the race engineer of the leading DTM team. He asked if I could build one car for him and his team. Of course I will .

[rm8]

11 minutes ago, zux said:

Ha, selling instructions for "non-branded" models that still look the same as some, let's say Lamborghini? That's still a theft. You might remember cars in GTA. Some of them were reminding existing vehicles, but they were severely modified. So you would need to do the same with your MOCs, which will reduce the popularity as cars won't be even close. 

If we dig deeper - theft is a theft, doesn't matter if it is small or big. We can use same logic from Lepin's perspective - this is not a big loss for MOC builders, may be even some kind of promo. I'm sure you won't like how it sounds...

ok, I understand your point.

I know some brands, that are very loyal to fans that replicate their brand with bricks. Since you are not a big company that earn big amount of $ selling IP - you are not a problem for them

 

[kbalage]

4 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Why can't he sell his instruction after CF campaign from his site? Or even make it free as youtube photo sequence with monetization

He can, but then then I don't see the point of crowdfunding. People who will become early adopters via CF would most probably buy it anyway officially and not through copycat companies. Honestly YT photo sequence instructions will hardly buy you a cheeseburger, don't expect million views for instructions of a complex MOC...

If you are sharing MOC instructions for free then you should accept that someone will potentially make money of it, period.

What I see as an option if you're willing to do a business - offer and easy and good quality way to buy your creation. You can sell digital PDF instructions, offer complete kits yourself (like Ingmar Spijkhoven does with his cool trucks) or do it via a 3rd party service like Mochub. Whoever respects the creator will buy it this way, all the others will try to steal it somehow anyway...

[Aleh]

11 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Why can't he sell his instruction after CF campaign from his site? Or even make it free as youtube photo sequence with monetization

After CF campaign designer is rewarded and satisfied. So copying is still a problem, but disappointment is compensated. You were 1 step before thiefs

Human can not be fully rewarded and satisfied. 

Just now, kbalage said:

He can, but then then I don't see the point of crowdfunding. People who will become early adopters via CF would most probably buy it anyway officially and not through copycat companies. Honestly YT photo sequence instructions will hardly buy you a cheeseburger, don't expect million views for instructions of a complex MOC...

Totally agree!

But from the other side. If person spent 20 Euro on CF BI, he can earn 20 000 on chinese market, selling kits.

[TeamThrifty]

6 minutes ago, Aleh said:

oantion level in lego instructions is the lowest, near to zero. 

...getting anything for your hobby is a bonus though, surely? Its not a career... i write software for a career, and believe me, we go to enormous (and expensive) lengths to protect our IP, but anyone competent can use reflection tools to de-compile a dll and see the source code. Its reality. As is the chinese copying stuff... i bet 50% of people on this thread have bought something from china on ebay because its cheaper. I have. things like a radiator for my bike  - £500 from kawasaki, £80 from china.. thats IP theft if we're being honest. And most of you will be the same.... 

 

[rm8]

18 minutes ago, Aleh said:

Human can not be fully rewarded and satisfied. 

in that case, play less, work better, earn more   and die young

18 minutes ago, kbalage said:

He can, but then then I don't see the point of crowdfunding. People who will become early adopters via CF would most probably buy it anyway officially and not through copycat companies. Honestly YT photo sequence instructions will hardly buy you a cheeseburger, don't expect million views for instructions of a complex MOC...

If you are sharing MOC instructions for free then you should accept that someone will potentially make money of it, period.

What I see as an option if you're willing to do a business - offer and easy and good quality way to buy your creation. You can sell digital PDF instructions, offer complete kits yourself (like Ingmar Spijkhoven does with his cool trucks) or do it via a 3rd party service like Mochub. Whoever respects the creator will buy it this way, all the others will try to steal it somehow anyway...

Early adopters can get it cheaper and support the whole idea of making BI, or got nothing at all.

As for photosequence, youtube is not only getting income now and here. You can legally share video using copyrighted music (and its rights holder get all income) but this music can give a posititve mood for video, and you will get new subscribers. I believe that some content can be not profitable, but will more valuable in long-term strategy.

 Well, I just give an idea and we discuss it. No target to change someone's realation to theft, IP and so on. Who is sinless here - drop a lego brick at me.

[Aleh]

8 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

...getting anything for your hobby is a bonus though, surely? Its not a career... i write software for a career, and believe me, we go to enormous (and expensive) lengths to protect our IP, but anyone competent can use reflection tools to de-compile a dll and see the source code. Its reality. As is the chinese copying stuff... i bet 50% of people on this thread have bought something from china on ebay because its cheaper. I have. things like a radiator for my bike  - £500 from kawasaki, £80 from china.. thats IP theft if we're being honest. And most of you will be the same.... 

 

No arguing here.

[zux]

9 minutes ago, rm8 said:

 Well, I just give an idea and we discuss it. No target to change someone's realation to theft, IP and so on. Who is sinless here - drop a lego brick at me.

No-no-no, that's a change of a whole topic as you started it basically stating "Instructions based on stolen IP has been stolen! What can we do about that to still keep earning money?"

What I think you wish to achieve here is to get ideas how can you get the most of your paid instructions for your MOCs. I have a first suggestion - don't base it on any existing IP. This will drastically reduce the number of people interested in buying instructions, but as well keep you low from Lepin. And this is where crowdfunding might actually work as it make sense. You can set a target of selling, say 20 instructions. Once target reached you could still continue selling the instructions for non-CF guys, but won't worry much if Lepin step in as you achieved your main target during CF phase.

 

[Carefree_Dude]

It's sad that the only time I see a "hot topic" on eurobricks it's about theft like this. 

[rm8]

14 minutes ago, zux said:

No-no-no, that's a change of a whole topic as you started it basically stating "Instructions based on stolen IP has been stolen! What can we do about that to still keep earning money?"

What I think you wish to achieve here is to get ideas how can you get the most of your paid instructions for your MOCs. I have a first suggestion - don't base it on any existing IP. This will drastically reduce the number of people interested in buying instructions, but as well keep you low from Lepin. And this is where crowdfunding might actually work as it make sense. You can set a target of selling, say 20 instructions. Once target reached you could still continue selling the instructions for non-CF guys, but won't worry much if Lepin step in as you achieved your main target during CF phase.

 

Thank you. Here is a good example for you and other builders: https://rebrickable.com/users/Madoca1977/mocs/?sort_sets_by=1&sort_sets_dir=D# You dont need to steal IP to be succesful builder.

No matter what you think, there will be a people that build cool, and people that want to build it too. How could you ask first to spent a lot of effort on making instruction for second? Is that selling protected design or just a combination of connected bricks in the picture...? Let everyone decide themsevles. I did it for me. All other too.

 

[Fatteh]

IP protection aside, I reckon a few creators here could do quite well on Patreon, rather than a limited time CF platform.

[brunojj1]

6 minutes ago, rm8 said:

 Here is a good example for you and other builders: https://rebrickable.com/users/Madoca1977/mocs/?sort_sets_by=1&sort_sets_dir=D# You dont need to steal IP to be succesful builder.

You really should have started the topic with this example ! Some 5 years ago I recommended to Madoca not to give away instructions for free, how great and honorable it might be. The stolen designs by the copycats devalue his models even more. I really hope this genious is not crushed in depression.

[Erik Leppen]

2 hours ago, brunojj1 said:

Since the story around my recent MOC was the trigger for the OP, here my thoughts. […]

If it doesn´t work and thieves are profitting, all the stuff becomes like worthless. I don´t beg for money, rather want to take risk, invest something and see how far it can get.

Some remarks. First of all, I'm fully with you and it's a huge shame these things happen and you have to suffer from it. None of us want that.

We all agree it shouldn't happen, but, sadly, it happens and there's nothing we can do. At least, we can't do anything to prevent the copying. So I'm trying another thought.

So I was thinking... what would happen if you'd share the instruction for free? I don't say that because I want free instructions, but I see this kind of thing happen the most with paid instructions. Maybe, by asking money you tell the world "this is worth paying for". Or, synonymously, "this has market value". And if copycats find something that has market value, then they sure know a market they can test that to.

I'm not saying that you're triggering the copycats, but I do think that maybe, the copycats are triggered by paid material more than by free material. (Note I'm just speculating here. I have no proof on this.)

Of course, with free instructions, you don't get the income you have get now, but I don't know how substantial that is. Is the income the reason for selling it? Could be, of course (and it's not something I need to know, so this is a question you can just answer for yourself), but if not, then maybe, the most effective path towards the goal of "sharing and inspiring" could very well be to keep money out of the whole thing altogether.

 

3 hours ago, rm8 said:

Question is how to help MOC builders (who provide quality MOCs and instructions that people want to buy) not to loose inspiration keep buildng and sharing.

If this is the question, then money has no place in the answer. If the goal is inspiration and keeping the spirit and fun in the hobby, then what we need is a community that shares this spirit. And we already have this, here on Eurobricks and many other forums and places. At least, speaking for myself, I get a lot of inspiration to create instructions that people want to buy from joining this forum and talking about the hobby here. (I'm probably not good enough to create instructions that people want to buy, but I'm certainly helped not to loose inspiration, which is how you stated your question)

 

Maybe, the best solution is ignorance. Now, my instructions and models are probably not good enough to market, but I don't know and maybe it's best that way. I'm not sure I even want to know it if it happens. I can't do anything about it anyway.

 

1 hour ago, rm8 said:

Why can't he sell his instruction after CF campaign from his site? Or even make it free as youtube photo sequence with monetization

After CF campaign designer is rewarded and satisfied. So copying is still a problem, but disappointment is compensated. You were 1 step before thiefs

Again, is the income the thing that compensates for the disappointment? I doubt it, and actually, I expect not. If @brunojj1 would have earned a 20,000 dollars more on this, would he be "rewarded and satisfied"? I think the actual disappointment lies in knowing there are people who steal your work. And if that is the problem, then the solution is either not knowing there are people who steal your work (which is not possible - what has been known cannot be made unknown), or knowing there are people who share your disappointment (which already happens here on EB).

Quote

No matter what you think, there will be a people that build cool, and people that want to build it too. How could you ask first to spent a lot of effort on making instruction for second?

First isn't asked to create instructions for second (OK well maybe they are :P ) - first decides for himself to create instructions for second. Why would someone create instructions? Because creating instructions can be a rewarding activity by itself. (Again, speaking for myself here.)

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Erik Leppen

[brunojj1]

7 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

 

Please don´t forget: I´m not the instructions designer himself. I have to pay him too for the extra work nobody else is willing and able to do. He does professional work and it does have great value too.

Another option for myself: design exclusive MOCs on comission and none of the mentionned problems ever will happen again. People will offer me 2.000,00 Eur for instructions and I will say no again and again. Better: enjoy the hobby yourself, buy and build whatever for whomever you want and no posting on the internet. Sounds nice for me, seriously.

[zux]

23 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Thank you. Here is a good example for you and other builders: https://rebrickable.com/users/Madoca1977/mocs/?sort_sets_by=1&sort_sets_dir=D# You dont need to steal IP to be succesful builder.

TBH, not really keeping an eye on MOCs produced by Chinese companies, but as far as I remember the MOC that produced a lot of noise is based on IP - Avtoros Shaman. There may be more of Madoca's MOC's produced right now, I don't know, but Shaman was where it all started for him.

27 minutes ago, rm8 said:

No matter what you think, there will be a people that build cool, and people that want to build it too. How could you ask first to spent a lot of effort on making instruction for second? Is that selling protected design or just a combination of connected bricks in the picture...? Let everyone decide themsevles. I did it for me. All other too.

You need to make a decision here - either enjoy a hobby and create MOC's for fun, where instructions are not compulsory (can be created, but not expected), or make them for business where different set of rules apply.

[Erik Leppen]

Just now, brunojj1 said:

Please don´t forget: I´m not the instructions designer himself.

Oh, sorry, I did not know that. Then part of what I said doesn't apply to your case.

[rm8]

40 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

Oh, sorry, I did not know that. Then part of what I said doesn't apply to your case.

What is the difference between "1) someone doing instruction for me for a fee" and "2) I spent my private time learning many applications and making instruction instead of LEGO building or have time with family"? Is it mean you support # 1 as a seller more than # 2 or I am wrong? In that case, why that person from # 1 do not do instructon for free?

Time is resource that you can exhange for something in return. Money is just an universal exchange, and for some - god. I know the price of my hour or a day. If someone thinks another way, he may be too young, or living his own life. This does not mean I will not move my finger for free. You can do many kind things in you life, not waiting for something in return.  Is there anyone here who think he can be rich selling good MOCs BI ? But I am sure that everyone who do his work (even hobby) good, deserve any kind of reward. There are a lot of artist who's talent started as a hobby, and then they conquered the world. And I will be glad if someone can make LEGO hobby his everyday work of dream without loosing inspirationa and flame inside.  We both know that there are exmaples in our community.

We do not have the moral right to judge people for a good work, especailly when we spent our working time at office browsing internet and smoking every 30 minutes

I know many people reading this post. And there are many points of view. Let's say the truth, how many of us here are caring for others more than for himself/own family? 

Share for free, or sell. Buy or build free. Do as you want. Do not judge, and you will not be judged

[Bartybum]

As to the prevention of stolen IP, theft is one of the risks you just have to accept when you invest your time in selling instructions, and watermarks won’t do a thing to stop people from buying it - they probably don’t care who made it, they just want it. This is unavoidable with an unregulated market, so anyone who bases a large amount of their income on selling their instructions and then scoffs at others for stealing them is naïve at best. It’s akin to walking into a dodgy neighbourhood with money spilling from your pockets and then getting pissed off when you get mugged. If money’s that important, find another source of income (that being said, I fully support charging for instructions as part of the hobby, just know that it’s risky, especially if it’s a model of a real vehicle).

As to helping creators, just make a Patreon and link to it in your signature thingo. Not sure why anyone would want the hassle of crowdfunding to begin with.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bartybum

[Erik Leppen]

34 minutes ago, rm8 said:

What is the difference between "1) someone doing instruction for me for a fee" and "2) I spent my private time learning many applications and making instruction instead of LEGO building or have time with family"? Is it mean you support # 1 as a seller more than # 2 or I am wrong?

There is no difference, but the question "why do you create instructions" is to be asked to the person creating the instructions. If brunojj wasn't the person creating the instructions, then that particular question isn't for him.

I fully support both - everybody is free to do his thing - I just put a thought I hadn't seen earlier in the topic, which is that the monetary reward, while good in itself, may also have a darker side, namely: works for sale may be more attractive to copycats.

 

34 minutes ago, rm8 said:

Time is resource that you can exhange for something in return. Money is just an universal exchange, and for some - god. I know the price of my hour or a day. If someone thinks another way, he may be too young, or living his own life. This does not mean I will not move my finger for free. You can do many kind things in you life, not waiting for something in return.  Is there anyone here who think he can be rich selling good MOCs BI ? But I am sure that everyone who do his work (even hobby) good, deserve any kind of reward. There are a lot of artist who's talent started as a hobby, and then they conquered the world. And I will be glad if someone can make LEGO hobby his everyday work of dream without loosing inspirationa and flame inside.  We both know that there are exmaples in our community.

We do not have the moral right to judge people for a good work, especailly when we spent our working time at office browsing internet and smoking every 30 minutes

Share for free, or sell. Buy or build free. Do as you want. Do not judge, and you will not be judged

I think we agree  (except the "price of an hour" thing. I honestly have no clue how much $ each hour is worth.)

Everyone, I think, likes some kind of reward for their time, but different people value different rewards differently. Some rewards can be

• money
• recognition
• fame
• the idea of having fans
• the act of teaching
• the act of learning
• seeing others improve their ideas
• seeing other show their own ideas in return
• etc.

So, I think a question for anyone sharing creative works is: what reward are you after most, and what would the an effective way to get that?

That's why I'm trying to say: given you have the skills, if your prefered reward is income, then selling is the way to go, sure. But if your most desired reward is recognition, then selling may not be the best way.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Erik Leppen

[Lipko]

If the conclusion is really not sharing things and doing commission work with privacy then it's time for me to quit the community part of this hobby too. I can spend my time better than looking at medicore models because the real talents hide their works to get some money. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Lipko

[Bartybum]

@Lipko If you wanna charge for it then go ahead. Just know the risks.

[KD123]

I have started to see many fan photos of Mocs utilizing fake parts on Rebrickable.   I don't know how much or if at all this would help but this should be stopped as it encourages bad behavior.  Examples include Mocs using technic panels in lepin fake colours.

 

[Mylenium]

12 hours ago, Goldenmasamune said:

Can you copyright instructions?

You need to study up on legal basics. Copyright is intrinsic and inherent to everything you create. You don't need to explicitly assign it to anything. That being the case, yes, even building instructions have a copyright, even if only a weak case can be made for them.

Mylenium

11 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

things like a radiator for my bike  - £500 from kawasaki, £80 from china.. thats IP theft if we're being honest.

Not necessarily. It seems to me that's the general issue with discussions about copyrights/ trademarks/ design patents/ technical patents. Everybody seems to assume there would be an inherent magic in the legalese and that it could used in a broad swing like a club. The devil is all in the details. In your case possibly the "spare parts rule" could be applied, depending on which country you live in and if it's a recognized legal procedure. It could be perfectly legit and even if it isn't - wouldn't it be up to your customs authorities to not let counterfeited stuff in then? This could be discussed endlessly.

Mylenium