Large Layout Questions

[Mesabi]

Hi, so my LUG is considering building a new train layout for a train museum that hosts us. 

The Layout we have their now uses 9v Tracks, because we have set it up so that the tracks are powered for X amount of time by a button press. 

However, the 9v Tracks are ancient, and the trains we have on them struggle to pull even two cars. I don't know if it's because of the layout's size, as it is quite large. (20'x8' or so)

So, I suggested we switch to RC track, and use some sort of power functions trains. 

My LUG though, isn't convinced about this, as they're worried about the batteries wearing out, and having it so that a button can be pressed to start the trains.

So my questions are the following:

1. Say we use Power functions trains. How long do the batteries last, if the train is running for a while? We come to the museum every weekend, but the museum is open all week. 
2. With power functions, is there a way to set it up so a button can be pressed to run the trains for X amount of time? I'm thinking Mindstorms, or something, but I don't know. We're also not purists, if that helps. 
3. Does anyone have examples of such a layout?

If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask below. 

Thanks!

[Stash2Sixx]

1. NILTC uses the LEGO rechargeable batteries and I've found, on average, they last about 6 hours+.  They run for 2 hours, and then have an auto cut off.  That can go for about three rounds.  Dual motors on a train can cut that in about half though.

2. If there is a way to set the trains to run and forget about them, we haven't bothered to find it.  We always have someone at  show with running trains.  Never know when something will happen so we have found it's always a good idea to have someone available.

3.  Independent self run layout, no.  A layout that utilizes PF trains, any, and all, of our layouts.

[BrickMusher]

1 hour ago, Mesabi said:

and the trains we have on them struggle to pull even two cars

I never had such problems, even with large trains. However, the problems you described might be solved with some research. here the most common problems in order of their observed frequency:

 

 

Fault: Train runs faster when close to the power-connection, but slows down when the distance becomes bigger

Solution: Since conatct-resistance is very high between each of the track-pieces, it is recommended to have power-connections every few meters or so. Keyword: loop wiring system

 

Fault: Train starts fast, but becomes slower when running for a while (within 1-2 minutes).

Solution: Hair and dust around motor-axles. By time, a lot of dirt and hair accumulate around the axles. Especially after long term use, it is recommended to open the motor-housing, remove any dirt and lubricate the bearing-points with a plastic compatible grease/oil.

 

Fault: Single/short train runs fast, slows down when adding more trains/motors

Solution: Power source. If you run more than two 9V engines on the same power-supply, it just can´t deliver enough current. Change to an other power-source. The original Legocontroller (the black with the yellow turn-thing) can handle up to 1,5A, so you can very easy use an additional power-supply on that controller

 

I have never run PF trains on an exhibition. But a lot of other exhibitors complain about numerous battery-changes.

Good luck

[kieran]

I think to use of in this way you will be modifying the parts quite a bit. You will need a battery that stays on, and can maybe return to a charging station. To make the train run for a period ofvtime you could create a solution using a raspberry pi or ardunio with a rf transmitter connected

[ALCO]

40 minutes ago, kieran said:

I think to use of in this way you will be modifying the parts quite a bit. You will need a battery that stays on, and can maybe return to a charging station. To make the train run for a period ofvtime you could create a solution using a raspberry pi or ardunio with a rf transmitter connected

While I have never done this, some folks have developed hybrid systems where the battery is used for RC track and a 9v motor is modified as a power pick-up for charging the battery when on 9v track. If you use a raspberry Pi or ardunio then you can program a train to return to a section of track to charge while another train takes a trip. This might require some fancy programming for automatic switches.

[Jedi Bert]

My LUG has a lot of experience in setting up layouts for short (2 weeks or less) and long term (3 months) shows. For any long term show, we use 9V as it allows us to "set it and forget it." The main problems with 9V are the power distribution that @BrickMusher mentioned and the 9V train motor wearing out.

For your existing layout, did you replace the motor with a newer motor to see how it runs? Do you clean the track on a regular basis - during our long term shows, we do that about 1 once a month or more depending on how dusty the place is.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Jedi Bert

[zephyr1934]

For push button service you are going to have a hard time replacing the 9v system. The PF rechargeable batteries are great (but expensive). However, they do need to be recharged every 2-6 hours of operation (depending on how heavy your train is). That means someone needs to stop the train and plug it in, then pull the plug a few hours later and restart the train. Oh, and the battery will time out after two hours and shut itself down.

Also, I would assume the LiPo battery will be discontinued within a year or two with the move to PUP. I'm suspicious that PUP will offer a battery box that does not have to be opened to recharge/replace the batteries (at least such a beast does not currently exist). In all of these scenarios, there is no option for the train to automatically run for N sec and then stop waiting for another button press.

Putting Mindstorms on the train would be difficult to hide and still have battery management problems.

You could replace the LEGO battery and controller with some logic that would enable running for N sec and then wait for the next command (at least in theory, I don't have any idea on the specifics) but you would still have the battery management problems.

In other words, for low maintenance operation you will have a hard time finding something as nice as 9v.

Hopefully the 9v track is in good condition (dirt and dust should not be a big problem), if so, then the longevity of the 9v motors is probably your biggest concern. Earlier comments about multiple power drops to the track is important. There are several threads in Eurobricks about overhauling the 9v motors using parts from PF and getting new life. Another thought would be devising power pickups and using those to run PF motors from 9v track.

For any pure lego solution, you probably want to stick to short trains to reduce the wear on the motor.

Oh, and check how freely the wheels spin. You might have to replace the wheel sets on the trains every so often (once per year? or more frequently if they see a lot of use) as the pin bearings do wear out. Stay away from any technic axle wheels on unpowered trucks as those have a ton of friction.

 

 

Failing all of that, you could do what Lego does in legoland: use non-lego track, motors, and wheels. O-gauge is closest to L-gauge, but you could go bigger (G) or smaller (S)

[Roadmonkeytj]

I personally think that if your wanting to go to pf you will need alot of changing and modifying your current solution.  Charging will be your biggest issue 

With some crrative programing you can use a push button to activate the train but unless you program some automation to return it to a "charging berth" and make a power pickup and a programed auto charger hooked in line with the battery.  

Your best bet is new 9 v motors ... Or a power pickup with pf motor (modifications to 9v trucks)

Add power loops and check your transformer out might be weak 

[aawsum]

On 8/26/2018 at 12:02 AM, Jedi Bert said:

Do you clean the track on a regular basis - during our long term shows, we do that about 1 once a month or more depending on how dusty the place is.

Last year on Legoworld we ran our layout for a week about 9 hours a day. Based on experience from the previous expositions we knew that during the night large vacuum machines run around and throw dust and grease in the air. This all comes down on the track. Same as during the day from the audience and eating places we receive a lot of grease, dust and other small stuff on the track.

Last year we cleaned the track in the morning and afternoon each day and covered the layout during the night with a dust cloth. Where in previous sessions we ruined multiple motors and also experienced slower running trains, last year we ran without any serious trouble.

So indeed, I think cleaning the track is the most important thing to do.