Decreasing number of MOCs: affected by criticism?

[suffocation]

38 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

 You're not being the nice person I know you as. Why?

Erik, I agree with all the points you raise. (And by the way, I want to thank you again for the feedback you've given me in the past year because when it comes to constructive criticism, you're pretty hard to outdo. I always study your feedback to other builders, too, because there's always a lesson to be learnt.)

I can't help wondering, though, if Sariel's tone has to do with all the Lego-related shite he has to deal with. He's given a lot over the years but has got back little or nothing; and I see more and more people (not here but on other boards) that treat him like they're entitled to even more from him. Case in point: someone shared his latest video on the Italian FB page Brickpatici and what was the tone of the average comment? "omg sariel sux cuz he wont maek instrukshunz 4 free." Not to mention the countless flabbergasting comments he gets on his own page. Or the vitriol he got when he added a Paypal donation button (was that the trigger, Sariel?) because "omg sarielz steulin r munny he sux he alreddi gets free legoes and i rote him 4 free instrukshunz and he nevah ansurd wtf hes a nazi."

I'm probably projecting here, but when you realise the sheer amount of dildos surrounding you, it becomes kind of hard to keep your cool and you end up blasting people who simply don't deserve it.

Edited August 24, 2018 by suffocation

[Sariel]

45 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

You didn't say "the real thing looks different". you said "literally every single proportion is off". That's a whole other tone of voice, isn't it?

In fact, the entire thing that makes me make such a point about this is your tone of voice. Especialy in your post a few minutes back. You're not being the nice person I know you as. Why?

I'm honestly baffled by this whole tone thing. I'm making simple, calm statements, making some observations, without offensive language or insults. That the proportions are off is such a statement. Yet for some reason it creates a total outrage here. To sum what happened exactly:

ME: The real crane looks different and has different proportions. I have a problem with its authenticity, but I like it otherwise.
THE FORUM: You are being disrespectful, offensive and using bad tone of voice, how dare you!

That's totally not an overreaction showing how EB really has a massive problem with criticism. Totally. See, I never said anything offensive or insulted the builder, I simply pointed out some obvious differences, but judging by reactions of some people here, I must have at least murdered half of his family, desecrated his religion and done some other terrible things.

Face it EB: you can't handle criticism at all. Shouting your outrage at me just seems like a poor attempt at censorship, and it's really not going to make this crane look any more authentic. Not to mention how nonsensical the whole situation is: you are now more focused on a single comment about this model than on the model itself.

I can't help wondering, though, if Sariel's tone has to do with all the Lego-related shite he has to deal with.

I'd like to think that this is unrelated. Again, it baffles me why simple, logical, calmly presented observations are being read as bashing or blasting someone. I didn't even use an exclamation mark anywhere, cool it people.

As for the stuff I deal with, yeah, I almost got death threats when I launched a fundraiser for a 360 camera. The reason? The fact that I'm getting review sets from LEGO. Also, some people start conversation by calling me a d*ck simply because I dare to publish a model without providing instructions. That instructions somehow don't just magically appear out of thin air but require weeks and months of work, never occurs to them. But that's my own private bag of fun and I'd like to think I'm managing to keep it separate from what's going on here.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Sariel

[Cumulonimbus]

Without wanting to drag myself in this discussion too much, I only want to mention this: For most of the EB members English is not their native language. Some language subtleties might be become lost in translation. Moreover, cultural differences will color the same words and sentences differently. Even though I moved only one country further to the north years ago, the difference in culture and language are still staggering sometimes.

[WvG_853]

This discussion reminds me the first time I showed some pictures I took at the photo club. I got encouraging feedback and continued coming to the club. By seeing the work of others and by practicing my own photography skills improved. If I look back at the first pictures I showed I am embarrassed that I dared showing them, they were so bad, but at the same time I realise how much I have learned and improved over the years. I agree that it is essential to give constructive feedback, but in practice it is not so easy. Sometimes I don’t have the necessary skills, sometimes pictures are so mediocre that there is really not much to say. With Lego Technic and this Forum it is pretty much the same ...

What we should not forget in this discussion is that we are writing things in a language that is not our mother tongue and where we are missing the body language. Smilies can help, but it is very easy to misinterpret things written ...

3 minutes ago, Cumulonimbus said:

Without wanting to drag myself in this discussion too much, I only want to mention this: For most of the EB members English is not their native language. Some language subtleties might be become lost in translation. Moreover, cultural differences will color the same words and sentences differently. Even though I moved only one country further to the north years ago, the difference in culture and language are still staggering sometimes.

Same thought at the same time ... :-)

[suffocation]

Sariel, I know your English is pretty good and you have a degree in English literature, but take it from an educated native speaker - it doesn't take exclamation marks and strong words to make a scathing comment. That's the only criticism I can level at you because other than that, you have no idea how grateful I am for all the hard work you do. It's thanks to you that I got back into Lego, started building my own stuff and found a better cure than popping pills.

Edit: I see the two blokes above me had written pretty much the same thing

Edited August 24, 2018 by suffocation

[Sariel]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

Interestingly, have you noticed that you are exactly doing what you condemn here, by replying on a remark on gate's crane because you disagreed? I haven't seen buttloads of +1s from you lately ;)

As a matter of fact, I praised the McLaren P1 twice this week, which is a decent number given that I write anything on EB about once per month. Why so rarely? Exactly because anything other than blind admiration leads to public outrage here. Also, a friend sent me a link to the crane thread.

19 minutes ago, suffocation said:

it doesn't take exclamation marks and strong words to make a scathing comment.

Fine then, apparently you are much more sensitive than the actual crane builder, who has taken the whole thing rather well. Apologies, my dear princesses. I promise not to call anything "looking different" anymore. How about "of impaired resemblance" instead? ;)

[suffocation]

4 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Apologies, my dear princesses.

And just like that, you veered into downright douchebaggery. Quit the sarcasm game, Sariel. And while you're at it, why don't you learn how to use the present perfect, simple past and past perfect in English in spite of your degree?

Edited August 24, 2018 by suffocation

[WvG_853]

Guys ... Please, no need to exaggerate and insult each other here.

6 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Exactly because anything other than blind admiration leads to public outrage here.

I don’t recognise your description of EuroBricks at all. I am sure all of us would be very happy to have you more often here sharing your knowledge and exchanging ideas and mutual criticism.

[Bublehead]

Where’s the popcorn, this is getting good...

[sirslayer]

@Sariel , wow...LOL!!    ok, dude!!! I apologizes for my comment..   I see your point.  I would hate to be on your bad side!!!  

Edited August 24, 2018 by sirslayer

[Sariel]

40 minutes ago, suffocation said:

And just like that, you veered into downright douchebaggery. Quit the sarcasm game, Sariel. And while you're at it, why don't you learn how to use the present perfect, simple past and past perfect in English in spite of your degree?

Damn, I offended the English language too! Really starting to think I'm better at offending everything that at Lego building. ;)

Cheers and goodnight, folks (really hope I got that tense right)!

[Aventador2004]

Well, it appears I opened a Goddamn can of worms. This has gone way too far. I meant it to be a calm conversation. But no, I said a single comment and offend pretty much everyone.

Can a mod please close this topic before it escalates.

[Bartybum]

My only problem here is @Sariel indirectly calling @gate lazy for not being bothered about aesthetics and mainly focusing on functions. He built a mobile crane using CLAAS tyres - that’s pretty much the opposite of lazy.

[nerdsforprez]

Couple of comments about etiquette, since this is what this post appears to be about, rather than the crane MOC in question per se, though it does involve many quotes and responses from others.  I will not pull in the quotes from every since response (though I will bring in some), that would be a dissertation, but rest assured, the below references are accurate. 

Also, I have no affiliation nor ties with @Sariel, so please consider this before any criticism of "defending" him.   I try to be as objective as I can, and here is simply my perception of what I read in the post in question.  In summary, I think it is very important to be aware of the trajectory of responses that led to the outcome.  No one has made comment to this, and I think it helps add clarification to the very nature of the argument. 

For what it is worth, this is a community, and in any community you have to be aware of the members at play.  Whether you like this or not this is the reality; and often age and maturity helps bring forth this awareness. 

That being said, there is the trajectory of responses that led to the fracas.  This all began because of @M_longer's response here:

It really would look better built in smaller scale, because now it looks like few pieces mixed together. You have big off road chassis, tiny outriggers suitable for cherry picker and thin boom, that does not match the scale of the model.
Actually, it looks like some russian crane trucks or specialized oilfield machinery:

Now, @M_longer has been criticized in the past for being too harsh, but from my point of view, he has made great strides forward in this.  Several past posts have even been quite complimentary and when advice is offered it seems to be with less acrimony.  The above is no different.  Very harmless, appropriate, and accurate IMO. 

Next, @Aventador2004 came back with:

It doesn't have to look good to work. I see nothing wrong with something like this. A freestyle build based on something else.

Nothing wrong with this either, however, it does appear blatantly like a "cover-up" (i.e. trying to back-track by calling it a freestyle build when the initial builder obviously was not free-styling) and as though he is defending the original OP. 

In fact, @M_longer then returns exactly that. He states that as a free-style the model is great (literally says "great" and "powerful").  The rest of his response is only defending the idea of calling something what it actually is. 

As a freestyle model it looks great, powerfull. But as you can see it was named Liebherr LTM 1060?
Does it look like this?

The post then compares the two images we are all now aware of.  I will not repost. And @Aventador2004 then comes back with

Quite similar actually, it has the body lines, capability, and all the functions. 

Now, this is where it all falls apart for me.  Up to this point, things were pretty copacetic. The MOC in question, compared to its real-life thing are not even close.  Objectively depicted by image overlays later in the post.  What accounts for the disparity?  I don't think we have an organic problem of vision, therefore the only reason I can see for the response by @Aventador2004 is that there is a lot of top-down processing going on here (if not familiar - look it up). 

@Sariel notices this, and posts:

Respectfully, you're starting to bend the fabric of reality here. This is a LEGO model that looks quite similar to a Liebherr crane:

I am not sure how this could have been more delicately put.  To claim that the two pics are "bending reality" seems to me, entirely accurate.  In fact, the picture overlays demonstrate this to a degree where I think Sariel's comments can be taken literally.  To bend reality in such a matter one has to look elsewhere why this might be the case.  Like I said, aside from an organic visual problem, the only thing I can see that might account for this bending reality is some bias lens that the poster (@aventador2004) is seeing through.  Begs the question of what this might be. 

After this, things disintegrate.  It involves what appears to be a young (if not underage) but otherwise fantastic and contributing member of the community trying to take on, verbally in argument, one of the most seasoned and talented builders out there.  Sparks are likely to fly here.  This is not news nor should we be shocked by this.  As mentioned, nothing is inherently wrong with this, and to this point things were more or less copacetic.

So we then are left to see how things play out.  And, at least to me, the first logic and posting etiquette that begins to fade is not by @Sariel , but @Aventador2004 .  A couple posts later he comments that he did not want to argue about the topic (when by all accounts he appears the instigator), calls Sariel's past comments "harsh" (I see no harshness in his comments to this point) and then he begins to throw barbs at others that haven't even joined in the conversation yet.  Stating "At least this OP did not claim to Have a Game Changing Moc" really shows the true motivation behind @Aventador2004.  This is a cloaked insult, and readers need to be aware of this.  Comes not from wanting to contribute something meaningful, but because of hurt feelings.  It is drudging up a past that has long been at rest.  This horse was dead a long time ago, and he chooses to dig it up and kick it again.  

This is where @Aventador2004's comments lose me.  Fingers are being pointed at sariel but it is the former who first turns to name-calling. Which, by the way, then the original OP, who has been quiet through this whole ordeal then chimes in, and also joins in the insults (i.e. " May be no one should be making any MOCs, except you as well?")

I will stop here.  My point is the trajectory of the posts in question tell a lot of the story that people are missing.  I am not sure the comments by @Aventador2004 are as benign and innocent as people are perceiving.  Etiquette begins to fade here and true colors are beginning to merge.  This has been a theme in the past, and I know this will be unpopular to state, but I am going to anyways. There appears to a lack of logic here to critiquing Sariel's initial comments, and it eerily smells like jealousy. 

As we look forward to the future of postings, and their etiquette - @Aventador2004 was certainly correct about one thing.  In a future post he states

if we are to keep the hobby alive and not make it into "Only the fittest survive". We need to encourage some builders onward. This does mean holding our tongue once in a while, or just not posting. If you dont like it, don't comment. Simple.

Eloquently put.  Solid, and mature.  Bravo.  Words and maturity are spot on, as well as the rationale.  Despite this, it is also incomplete. If I were to be so bold, I would take these exact words and extend them to offering something like:

We also need to be aware of over-sensitivity from young builders and new or inexperienced builders need to be open and receptive to feedback from others.  EVEN IF IT IS UNCOMFORTABLE.  Lastly, young builders need to be aware that their MOCs are not likely to be as popular as those more experienced, and this needs to be accepted.  The power of online posting lies with the OP; and awareness of the above is paramount to have a positive experience. 

We cannot go too far to bend reality to make life and her experience more comfortable for others.  Because, in the end, I am not sure this really helps them.  Perhaps in the short run, but not the long run.  "Encouraging some builders onward" is not just defined as being nice or massaging feelings; but being accurate as well.  From the perspective of this lone member, that is exactly how I perceived @M_longer's and @Sariel's comments to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Aventador2004 said:

Well, it appears I opened a Goddamn can of worms. This has gone way too far. I meant it to be a calm conversation. But no, I said a single comment and offend pretty much everyone.

Can a mod please close this topic before it escalates.

Why?  Discussion is good here.  Perhaps there is a learning point - perhaps not in the direction you want but a learning point nonetheless. 

Listen, this sounds harsh, but I truly mean it from a supportive role.  You mention, again, that you wanted a "calm" conversation or something like it.  However, it was you that first turned to insults.  To play the good guy here is not your best card.  Perhaps there is learning here - like I said, just not in the direction you want it. 

I for one would really like it if this thread stays alive.  I would like this conversation to continue.

3 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

In fact, the entire thing that makes me make such a point about this is your tone of voice. Especialy in your post a few minutes back. You're not being the nice person I know you as. Why?

Erik - I am not sure I see Sariel not being nice at all.  Perhaps defensive, but not unkind. 

But I think defensiveness is perhaps appropriate.  I can own up to it, I feel a little as well.  I think we have a right to stick up for the very nature of this forum, and as I see it, Sariel's concern of being too accepting, or unwilling to call a spade a spade is a real concern here.  IMO, it really applied to the post in question. 

[TechnicRCRacer]

I just wanted to add a little:

I think this discussion has heated up quite a bit. Here is what I say to MOCs that I comment on: I always start with praise because it is a nice model, then I leave constructive criticism after. It seems people have different interpretations of what is nice and what is slightly offensive. I sometimes get a little frustrated from a comment, but I just chill and everything ends up fine. I take the feedback and apply it. No offense to Sariel, but I can see why some people are upset over your comments. I personally don’t find them that bad, but with almost no praise, it makes it seem you are more wanting to give criticism than comment about how nice the model is.

[sirslayer]

@nerdsforprez I disagree with your opinion. advenator and m_longer are master technic builders in heart and their hearts are about technics 

[Bublehead]

@nerdsforprez, Hey I lived down “game changing” and learned my lesson a long time ago.  My goal is to support Technic and all things related.  I would rather focus on creating more great MOCs and showing them off.  If someone is critical, I will answer back if I don’t agree, but not to engage, only clarify my thinking.  I can agree to disagree and move on.  The lesson I learned early is it doesn’t help you around here to self promote. Just be honest and cordial, respectful, and kind.  Present your model, let people say what they will, take what they say with a grain of salt. Act on things that make sense, disregard those that don’t. Relax and have fun.  When coming here stops being fun, we all lose. 

[kolbjha]

IMHO this is all out of proportions. If I post a MOC (which I haven't done so fare, but hopefully soon...), I would appreciate honest feedback, whether it is "Wow, amazing...", or "you really need to work on...". EB is in my opinion one of the most civilized sites there is, and I hope it stays that way.

I think attacking Sariel's opinion in this is way over the top. It his is opinion that the MOC is out of proportions compared to the real thing. From my perspective it is hard to disagree. Saying that, its still a great MOC in my opinion.

Please ladies and gents, lets take the comments for what they are, and appreciate them.

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by kolbjha

[sirslayer]

@kolbjha I guess you never been @ bitcointalk.org..  Money is the main talk!!!   otherwise, i've seen more important issues to discuss about 

[kolbjha]

1 minute ago, sirslayer said:

@kolbjha I guess you never been @ bitcointalk.org..  Money is the main talk!!!   otherwise, i've seen more important issues to discuss about 

Hehe, i guess you are right. My point is more or or less the slogan of allanp:

"Even the best can be made better, but most important is to be excellent to each other and party on dudes!!!!!!"

[nerdsforprez]

36 minutes ago, sirslayer said:

@nerdsforprez I disagree with your opinion. advenator and m_longer are master technic builders in heart and their hearts are about technics 

This has nothing to do with my opinion. Respectfully, I am not sure I see the logic at all here.  My comment had nothing to do with the quality of builder's either of these folks are and I have no  idea about what "hearts about technics" even means......

[sirslayer]

@nerdsforprez  you are also a master builder, I can't say in your words.. the finger pointing must stop!!!  as all can agree!!! On;y Lego Technics discussions are allowed!! 

[Magical Duck]

I have to agree with @kolbjha, this has blown up probably way more than it needed to be. I feel that while @Sariel made a valid point, it was a little harsh.

The point of LEGO is not to perfectly mimic a real life entity. It is to simply be a basis to create a model which resembles real life. But the biggest purpose of LEGO- the reason it is not a die-cast-model- is that you make your own creations that you are happy with.

LEGO Technic is not about looks. If you want looks, go check out the Scale Modeling Forum or pick up a Creator or Architecture set. LEGO Technic is about play functions. And I feel that @gate has made a very functional, nice model.

While it may not look like a Liebherr crane precisely, I feel that he has done a reasonable (actually quite impressive) 3 axle crane. The fact that he named it a Liebherr crane is his decision.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that @gate's priority may not have been how the mobile crane looks. If his focus was on the functions, so be it. LEGO was not meant to be a perfect representation of real life, so I don't see why people expect it to be.

[Aventador2004]

1 hour ago, nerdsforprez said:

Eloquently put.  Solid, and mature.  Bravo.  Words and maturity are spot on, as well as the rationale.  Despite this, it is also incomplete. If I were to be so bold, I would take these exact words and extend them to offering something like:

This really was my trying to apologize. I hadn't had a great day, so I went outside calmed down, and wrote that post. I also wrongly misunderstood @M_longer's comment, which BTW, I shouldn't have. I think it definitely was me being like; " Maybe we should encourage him to try to make it more like the crane or change the name. When @Sariel joined in, I was trying to backtrack, realizing I made a mistake. I lost my cool because it got to the point I may have pissed some members off. 

2 hours ago, Aventador2004 said:

I meant it to be a calm conversation. But no, I said a single comment and offend pretty much everyone.

Also tried to backtrack here. Bad idea. Just plain and simple tried to make myself into the blame. THIS IS MY FAULT, Ok. No one else. But when I tried to stop, it escalated. This is a learning curve. A forum should be helpfull, not hopefull for peace. 

Bottom line: RTFP.

Spoiler

Read the _______ post.

[Magical Duck]

We have two ends here- one that is very critical, and then there are some people who think this is good enough :