Aventador2004

Decreasing number of MOCs: affected by criticism?

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For me its quite simple why im not posting evry moc that i build because the ones that i posted here all have 3 comments max so why go threw the process. One got not even one comment. So when you are new here its just not fun and worth it because nobody see it or is interested in them. 

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4 minutes ago, Kai_P24 said:

For me its quite simple why im not posting evry moc that i build because the ones that i posted here all have 3 comments max so why go threw the process. One got not even one comment. So when you are new here its just not fun and worth it because nobody see it or is interested in them. 

I've just looked over your MAN MOCs and they're pretty good! The Tatra's cool too. :thumbup: Try posting more stuff if you have it.

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I find too many people on EB to be just too judgmental.  You can post an 8000 piece MOC and link to 50 pictures of it, and you get three comments and 2 out of three are negative and the third says "Looks cool and all, but a video would be better".   I have posted MOCs on here that took 8 months to design and build and a lot of the posts on it were pure negativity.  I've given up looking for praise on EB, So I'm not posting any more MOCs on here in hopes of praise, only when I want my creations ripped on for being too big, or too heavy, or wrong color choices, or uses illegal geometry, or violates some unwritten TLG stress reduction code.  The feeling I get when I come here is "you are not worthy of our praise" so why even try? Until this changes, I've decided my MOCs are for me, I build them to impress myself, and sharing them is no longer something I will do often here. You can get way more praise and less negativity on FB Technic groups.

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I've generally noticed that car and supercars get way more attention and praise than any other type of vehicle-based MOC.

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1 hour ago, Bublehead said:

You can get way more praise and less negativity on FB Technic groups. 

1 hour ago, Bublehead said:

I find too many people on EB to be just too judgmental

While I can't argue with that (I'm not active on FB), maybe you take serious comments, trying to improve your build, too negative. At least from my experience, this forum is very helpful and all around very kind. Even if there are some negative comments, I've never read one just saying "this is bad", but trying to give a constructive critique.

Regarding the main topic, and as many said before, there are many perfectionists here. So we rarely see a MOC with sub-mediocre quality here. Compare that for example to Lego Ideas, where there are countless models built by children and at least get 100+ votes and 20+ positive comments. And as I am feeling the whole benchmark is rising here in EB over the years, maybe more newcomers think their model doesn't meet the high standards and therefor hesitate to post MOCs.

1 hour ago, Bublehead said:

You can post an 8000 piece MOC and link to 50 pictures of it, and you get three comments and 2 out of three are negative and the third says "Looks cool and all, but a video would be better".

I am sorry that you got that impression, but bigger isn't always better. And it is one thing to moc a big machine and the other one to moc a big machine with very good working functions.

10 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

I've generally noticed that car and supercars get way more attention and praise than any other type of vehicle-based MOC.

I think that cars are just way more accessable than e.g. heavy machinery, which I don't get, because functionality is always sexier :D

Edited by Jundis

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15 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

I've generally noticed that car and supercars get way more attention and praise than any other type of vehicle-based MOC.

Yeah well cars are popular I guess :grin:

I still like to look at your construction machines and other vehicles to find a cool building technique or mechanism that could be adopted for my car MOCs tho :wink:

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2 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

I've generally noticed that car and supercars get way more attention and praise than any other type of vehicle-based MOC.

Everyone knows cars, not everyone knows machinery. Most of us often have to look into a specific machinery to have even an opinion on a particular Lego model. Cars, everyone has opinions, because everyone sees them every day.
I think it's simple as that.

And don't underestimate how interesting a car can be mechanically. I, for one, am not interested in real cars at all. Yet, when it comes to modeling of any kind (Lego, die-cast, paper) I' in awe.

Edited by Lipko

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3 hours ago, Jundis said:

And as I am feeling the whole benchmark is rising here in EB over the years, maybe more newcomers think their model doesn't meet the high standards and therefor hesitate to post MOCs.

I am a (quite) new member (1 year), and this is exactly what I am thinking. I build MOCs, and then I see stuff that is just too good, so I don't post them.

Concerning cars, I do have 1 car in WIP (see note), but I try to implement some original functions that not all the cars have. Otherwise, I try to build some other vehicles.

What is missing too for me is people posting some little original and helpful mechanisms that can always help. @Sariel still does that sometimes, but that's not enough I believe. I do take sometimes some inspiration from these creations, and I also just enjoy seeing such a smart mechanism. What I mean is for example Lego Technic Mastery (YT).

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1 hour ago, Lipko said:

And don't underestimate how interesting a car can be mechanically. I, for one, am not interested in real cars at all. Yet, when it comes to modeling of any kind (Lego, die-cast, paper) I' in awe.

Too bad Lego cars, especially official sets, tend to be pretty simple and repetitive mechanically. Someone somewhere listed at least a dozen functional features that could be implemented in a car set but has never been done, and that's just with current parts, for example new gearbox parts to make them more compact and realistic would change the game entirely...

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3 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Someone somewhere listed at least a dozen functional features that could be implemented in a car set but has never been done, and that's just with current parts

If you, or anyone reading this, remembers that list: please let me know! :)

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Just now, Lira_Bricks said:

If you, or anyone reading this, remembers that list: please let me know! :)

No idea where that was, one of these endless topics discussing the proliferation of repetitive car sets and how to make them less repetitive.

Couple of things mentioned were: headlights that turn with the steering wheel and 4 doors.

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9 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

Has already been done by @Jeroen Ottens in his Aston Martin DB11: Rebrickable

Yeah, obviously someone somewhere have done practically every feature you can think of. But these are not common (as something like gearboxes are) and never been done in an official set.

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5 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

I've generally noticed that car and supercars get way more attention and praise than any other type of vehicle-based MOC.

Of course, I like much more the machinery but my cars have had more impact when I consider them worse than my machines, a matter of taste. Machinery is for me more fun to do because it usually has more mechanisms in less space and of course less aesthetic work :laugh: .

Edited by jorgeopesi

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3 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Yeah, obviously someone somewhere have done practically every feature you can think of. But these are not common (as something like gearboxes are) and never been done in an official set.

Well, every car has a gearbox, but lot's of other features are dependent on the real life counterpart's features.

But I agree that stuff like this would be nice in a official set. At the moment you LEGO fans can be happy if the headlights are still brickbuilt and not a print... Oh wait :head_back:

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4 hours ago, Jundis said:

While I can't argue with that (I'm not active on FB), maybe you take serious comments, trying to improve your build, too negative. At least from my experience, this forum is very helpful and all around very kind. Even if there are some negative comments, I've never read one just saying "this is bad", but trying to give a constructive critique.

Regarding the main topic, and as many said before, there are many perfectionists here. So we rarely see a MOC with sub-mediocre quality here. Compare that for example to Lego Ideas, where there are countless models built by children and at least get 100+ votes and 20+ positive comments. And as I am feeling the whole benchmark is rising here in EB over the years, maybe more newcomers think their model doesn't meet the high standards and therefor hesitate to post MOCs.

I am sorry that you got that impression, but bigger isn't always better. And it is one thing to moc a big machine and the other one to moc a big machine with very good working functions.

I think that cars are just way more accessible than e.g. heavy machinery, which I don't get, because functionality is always sexier :D

 

5 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

I've generally noticed that car and supercars get way more attention and praise than any other type of vehicle-based MOC.

 

4 hours ago, Gray Gear said:

Yeah well cars are popular I guess :grin:

I still like to look at your construction machines and other vehicles to find a cool building technique or mechanism that could be adopted for my car MOCs tho :wink:

I think it seems like cars can be too repetitive, like they all have the same basic functions (suspension, motor, and transmission). They only real difference is how those functions are implemented and how the outside looks.

17 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Too bad Lego cars, especially official sets, tend to be pretty simple and repetitive mechanically. Someone somewhere listed at least a dozen functional features that could be implemented in a car set but has never been done, and that's just with current parts, for example new gearbox parts to make them more compact and realistic would change the game entirely...

I think it's the fact of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". You have to remember that not everyone buys set every year so they tend to be simpler to allow for lower/more accessible price points. So that causes a lot of people to not have enough parts to make MOC's.

I was unable to finish this MOC, but did make some realistic functions.

 

6 hours ago, Bublehead said:

You can post an 8000 piece MOC and link to 50 pictures of it, and you get three comments...

Don't need that many parts for a MOC like My Zero Turn Mower that has 1,500 views but three replies. 

 

To me I'm trying to make MOC's that haven't been done yet or not enough of a type of MOC done yet.

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26 minutes ago, weavil said:

I think it seems like cars can be too repetitive, like they all have the same basic functions (suspension, motor, and transmission). They only real difference is how those functions are implemented and how the outside looks.

I agree that cars are often repetitive, but I feel like construction equipment can be too. I've built so many cars in my career that anything along the normal lines is starting to get boring, so I am trying to come up with more challenges for myself, like more complex, realistic suspensions, torque-vectoring differentials, automatic transmissions, twin-clutch (differentialless) rear axles, etc. I suppose I feel like the average Technic supercar is less interesting than the average Technic construction equipment model, but I think if top-level (in complexity) supercars and construction equipment are compared, the construction equipment ends up like a more compact, better-looking Liebherr set, with one motor per point of articulation (or a pneumatic valve), while the supercar is more likely to have unique mechanical solutions.

I guess I just disagree with the idea (which I don't think anyone on here consciously holds) that construction equipment is necessarily more complex than supercars.

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Very interesting topic and diverse opinions! As I am relatively new around here on the forum I cannot tell whether the number of MOCs is decreasing, however, I can confirm the experience of some previous commenters.

  • After skipping 20 years of Lego Technic evolution, including the PF revolution (which I am sure I would have liked a lot since I used to be into Lego RC stuff 20 years ago already), I did have the first impression that everything has been built (but I still want to build them anyway since I missed them). On the other hand, I still see a lot of opportunities, for example for improving mechanics (maybe simplifying with newer parts) and improving RC with PU. Maybe we'll have to think a bit differently, I guess PU will require more integration with software (programmable controllers) to open new possibilities and get the most out of it. I am also looking forward to the new BuWizz battery and motor, bringing back the possibility to build all those power horses that were only possible with the now almost extinct RC motor. I think those will give an interesting spin to RC stuff. The reason I like RC is because it gives a chance to test our builds under more demanding and realistic circumstances and force us to build in a more robust way.
  • I also see the proliferation of sports cars with less technical details, and I can see that those do get more attention than technically challenging but less visually pleasing builds, which is a pity, but that's just the way it is. Not that I don't like aesthetically pleasing cars, but I prefer them done in creator expert style. However, I still don't see too many RC versions of those cars with gearboxes, which would actually be (more efficiently) possible by now. Not to mention that PU will make automatic gearboxes possible (when software support becomes better), which could be used in those cars.
  • I also experienced that posting on this site often gives you zero or little responses, which is discouraging, while posting on FB gives you a lot of comments and likes. I believe it is partly due to the fact that there are so many posts here, that most of them are only visible on the forum front page for a few hours, and never seen again afterwards. One thing I am missing is (thumbnail) images and a short description of the items in the list of topics (similar to featured topics on the site's main page, but with smaller images). I think that could guide the attention of readers better. Also, the list on the forum page itself could be longer, to allow for more items to be visible (by default). @Jim have you thought about that before? In essence, any ideas to simplify browsing and discovering interesting threads could possibly improve the situation. Also, true that many MOCs are rather posted on Rebrickable, which I see as more specialized place for that purpose.
  • However, also true, that you can get more quality info related to building techniques here, which is valuable and should be kept up and even condensed maybe. For example I love the axle collection thread, more similar ones would be great. I think threads that are kept alive for many years are more useful than the short lived ones, since many people could be interested in a topic, but may not be present when it is started.

To challenge myself, along with unlimited builds, I decided to build alternate models of official sets. Limited parts make you think about alternative solutions even for problems that have already been solved before, and it also gives an easier opportunity to others to reproduce your build without the need for lots of rare/expensive parts.

Anyway, back to building :) I mean, after work..

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Quoting from another thread that is closed:

”For example, if someone were to pour their effort into building a MOC that they’re proud enough of to go to the effort of taking photos and posting them here, and all you can muster up is “The wheels are too small” or “This doesn’t look like X” without so much as an effort to make them feel welcome for contributing to the forum then sorry but that’s just behaving like a rude piece of shit.

I am far from young, or thin-skinned, but this sort of response does make me reluctant to post stuff here. What’s the point, if some MOCers (whose models I have admired and paid money for) can only seem to respond by nit-picking. 

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I understand you, when you have done a lot of MOCs it happens that you start to only see the fails you have done before, you want to give advice but all that it is written here seems to be misunderstood, so with the time even I only write when I like a MOC, when I see MOCs with fails I do not write anything.

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After reading the whole topic, it seems that globally the social network a dragging many MOCers out of here, because of the larger volume of feedback... I am not expert on the topic (I am not a MOCer), but I can imagine that it is rather the "nice" feedback that is sought on those networks, for it is much easier to gather there. Please consider that:

  • those netwokrs are essentially thought for that kind of feedback (most of them have only a "thumb up" or "like" and no "thumb down" or "dislike")
  • it is much easier to click on a "thumb up" icon than writing a constructive message
  • the proportion of non-knowledgeable (in LEGO and/or mechanics) is far superior than here
  • the volume of people is MUCH larger than here
  • etc.

Which brings me to the idea that "nice feedback" should not be a goal here, because if that idea becomes enforced, then EB will definitely be wiped out by social networks. To me, the correct idea should be "if you are seeking nice feedback, get on FB/Instagram/whatever, but if you want to challenge yourself and make progress, then come on EuroBricks".

Again, being not a MOCer, this is just my 2c.

Edited by Celeri

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I didn't dig through all of the comments here yet, but I got the gist of this on the first page. I think the drop is not only on EB, but also across the web. And also I think there was a spike of interest when the lockdown started...

IMO the issue boils down to the fact that a lot of people will vote/comment for stuff that expensive to build, which they can't afford etc, but they won't participate in discussions on something they could actually build on their own with limited funds.

I've seen the same mechanism in PC and Small Form Factor PC scene on reddit where you can literally find people posting each day or each week "I built my first gaming PC - how did I do?" with photos of over-the-top system meaning top shelf components and RGB etc, and people will upvote it like hell even if it's literally the same thing that was posted yesterday - you get the idea. But if you go and post something that explains how to solve a problem, people who happen to don't have that issue will just downvote it to the ground.

The same thing happens on Technic subreddit where people over and over again drop photos of what they bought, what they built from the set and how their collection looks and this gets upvoted and commented a lot, and in effect newcomers feel that the community is all about buying expensive sets and boasting how much of Lego they have.

Second "sin" is that we've got to a point where a lot of people will make cool MOCs in which they figure out something, but they won't share how to do it because the instruction is premium on rebrickable and, from what I feel, the core idea of MOCs is building your own thing, so most of the people won't buy the instruction just to take a peek at some unique solution. Threads were people share different solutions for the same problem are cool.


As for the positive/negative feedback - I think we got to a point where most of the population would want to work only on positive feedback and won't accept constructive critique, and since we can't have "just nice feedback" rules, they'll automatically assume the community is toxic whenever they'll see people criticising someone's work/their work, and won't come back. A lot of people share their stuff on the web just so they can get the positive feedback for dopamine boost rather than actually wanting feedback.

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Constructive feedback is necessary if anyone wants to improve. Aware constructor knows that. My UAZ 3151 at the beginning was ugly as ... Let's say it was very ugly :P But thanks to advices from people here and from FB group it became quite a beauty (at least as pretty as old UAZ can be) and it  was appreciated in this improved form.

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I think that some of the criticism is here from some people comes across very condescending. These are the best MOCers at the same time. This can be "devastating" to a newbie (not just newbie in MOCing but in the community too) because a bit of Dunning-Krueger effect, the newbie just finished its first MOC and feels high and posts and gets a mere "this doesn't remotely look anything like the real mode" or "everyone and their grandma can build car models" sort of comment. Just imagine.

For ""grown ups"" like us, we have grown some skin and don't get discouraged by such comments (and actually feel happy if we get their attention), but we know the commenters and that it's just their internet face, not their real personality. I can name @Sariel @mahjqa @M_longer. Whoever knows them a bit knows they are perfectly normal and kind person in real life (it comes across from their videos and building topics) and that they are perfect in English but not native speakers. Maybe that's a reason why some of their comments come of condescending.

Maybe another reason why these comments are so discouraging because these commenters only praise or have comments that are not critical about the best new builders in the world. And this may have the effect on the newbie that (s)he will never be in this elite club, and most MOCers in their hearts want to be in this club.

For the "grown up" thing. Many of the people who some of you refer as snowflakes are actually in their early twenties. And nowadays most of them aren't really a grown-up yet. No own family, life to lead, whatever. For them, Lego MOCing might be what defines them.

Edited by Lipko

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Just gonna throw this out there...

Anyone can say anything, that doesn't mean you have to listen to it, or take it to heart. I was bullied all through high school by everyone on my sports team, and I had to ignore it, let it slide, or use it to goad myself into working harder and to make myself a better player. The same goes for everything else in life. There will always be someone who hates whatever you are doing, and says it, just as there are people who offer nothing but praise. If you can't handle criticism, whether unecessary, harsh, or helpful, there is no place for you anywhere. Just take everything with a grain of salt, keep a level head, and yeah, maybe it hurts sometimes, maybe it feels good to know something was appreciated, but at least you can learn from other, more skilled people.  Here, on a random online forum, it means nothing. In the workplace, this skill be comes a lot more important, because my job depends on making my customers happy (I do lawn/garden/tree care). I've had to redo entire jobs because the customer wasn't pleased with the effort I put in, and how it turned out. The difference is that online, it means nothing, has no effect, and is simply words that you can scroll past and ignore if they displease you. In real life, you can't skip past it, there is no EDIT button, no delete key, no rewind. You have to deal with it, with whoever is criticizing you, and whatever actual ramifications this has for you.

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