Aventador2004

Decreasing number of MOCs: affected by criticism?

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38 minutes ago, Brickend said:

I've just tried viewing this forum on a phone; it looks awful. I tried to upload a screenshot but obviously it was over 100kb so the forum wouldn't let me. 

If you're used to Facebook / Instagram / Youtube etc. where the site is optimized for mobile viewing and converts the file for the user, I can see why people would skip a site where they have to go through multiple processes. I'd imagine the next generation of people getting into Technic are used to being able to do everything from their phone, fairly efficiently.

The other thing to note is all the above sites are also extremely visual and easily scroll-able; you don't have to click through numerous text links to find something that interests you.

It would be nice if the forum had a script that would upload images automatically to imgur and paste them in the comment.

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1 hour ago, Bricktrain said:

I am struggling to complete a large build, we have so many new parts released now that you end up rebuilding so many times to use better parts that you never seem to be able to reach the finish.

 

For me, that's the whole point!!  As soon as you are almost finished, you make it just a little bit better, add another wizzy bit.  I see MOCs as a change from suduko; it's in 3D, but otherwise it's a puzzle to be solved.  You CAN make anything, it's just a matter of working out how...

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2 hours ago, howitzer said:

I don't know what would be involved in this forum more mobile-friendly, but I can imagine it wouldn't be easy though. It's hard to imagine how long, in-depth posts with multiple photos could be easily viewable on the small screen of a phone, there's just no substitute to a large screen so I'm not sure if EB should even consider changing the layout

I think a few tricks would improve the site a lot in mobile view. Like shallowing the menu, hiding avatars in posts and set the margins between the posts to zero, a better/more obvious gallery view or even a fixed gallery on the top (where all the pictures in a thread are automatically collected), I'd decrease the font size of posts too (take a peek at Facebook) and hide quotes by default (zero side margins for quotes), etc. Many of these are rather simple CSS tweaks.

That enormous header doesn't help too much either and I don't really think those tags are having any informational value (does these tags have actual usage value? I never used then or searched for them).
The "recently browsing" field in the footer is also doesn't hold much value in my opinion.

Also the topic list has very big list items as it is filled with not very relevant info. Those info should be with smaller font and margins at least, but also could be simply hidden in mobile view (like view ad post counts, tags, timestamp).

Though indeed the biggest influence would be hosting pictures, that's a bit of a hurdle to get pictures up here. But that's the hardest thing to solve, I guess. Though maybe Eurobricks could make a huge account on an image hosting site and simply use some scripting to host there and embed images from there.

 

Sorry to hijack, i really don't feel like doing my actual job, so I post instead...

Edited by Lipko

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I find it easy & quick to use Flickr then just copy the BBE link for each image onto my “pages app “, then add text & copy paste onto the forum.

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That doesn't sound as quick and easy as the competitors.

I appreciate a well crafted presentation as much as the next person, but we've now got generations used to the ability to instantly share and who live through their phones - the screens also aren't that small when you think about the resolutions we used to work with. A clear theme emerging in this thread is that people are short on time due to work/family etc - they don't have time to sit at a computer which is where mobile browsing comes in.

With facebook etc., you can be working on a MOC, take a photo on a phone, and it's instantly uploaded. Rather than having to down tools, upload to hosting site, copy links between sites etc.

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36 minutes ago, Lipko said:

I think a few tricks would improve the site a lot in mobile view. Like shallowing the menu, hiding avatars in posts and set the margins between the posts to zero, a better/more obvious gallery view or even a fixed gallery on the top (where all the pictures in a thread are automatically collected), I'd decrease the font size of posts too (take a peek at Facebook) and hide quotes by default (zero side margins for quotes), etc. Many of these are rather simple CSS tweaks.

That enormous header doesn't help too much either and I don't really think those tags are having any informational value (does these tags have actual usage value? I never used then or searched for them).
The "recently browsing" field in the footer is also doesn't hold much value in my opinion.

Also the topic list has very big list items as it is filled with not very relevant info. Those info should be with smaller font and margins at least, but also could be simply hidden in mobile view (like view ad post counts, tags, timestamp).

Though indeed the biggest influence would be hosting pictures, that's a bit of a hurdle to get pictures up here. But that's the hardest thing to solve, I guess. Though maybe Eurobricks could make a huge account on an image hosting site and simply use some scripting to host there and embed images from there.

 

Sorry to hijack, i really don't feel like doing my actual job, so I post instead...

True, some small modifications would probably help with the readability, but the image hosting is a real problem. A general account on an image hosting site would probably require some sort of deal between EB and said hosting site, as scripted uploads from EB would generate a huge amount of traffic and since those hosting sites are generally ad-supported, hotlinking images would remove the ad revenue. I have no solution to this problem though, I generally upload my images to either Imgur or to my own website but both are a huge hassle when compared to most social media platforms. I'm ok with that but I know many people aren't.

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45 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

I find it easy & quick to use Flickr then just copy the BBE link for each image onto my “pages app “, then add text & copy paste onto the forum.

Yes, if you are not auto signed out from either sites for some reason. I use Brickshelf. A quick image posting here alone takes 5 minutes with a PC (logging in to BS, navigating to some temporary folder to upload (waiting to finish), getting and copying the deeplink and posting here). Not counting picture resize operations which this site requires to be readable.

Edited by Lipko

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So... many people says they're not here for replies, but it's still extremely frustrating when you don't get replies...

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Although I haven't been very active on EB, I used to be quite a prolific Technic builder, but I have to concur that my last big Technic project dates from 5 years ago. So why have I not built nor presented any big Technic models since? For me there are numerous reasons:

  • My main drive to build with Technic is innovation; coming up with new interesting concepts and design solutions that have not been done before. When the community was still very small 15 to 20 years ago this was not so difficult, but now it's (over)saturated, meaning that almost everything you come up with has already been tried/ done before in a slightly different way. This is not motivating.
  • Meanwhile good and interesting concepts have evolved and been improved countless of times through the years, slowly perfected to best practice solutions. Even TLG starts implementing almost identical solutions in their official sets. Then who would be interested in something different that is sub-par? This is not motivating.
  • Developing a proper Technic model takes ages (even at TLG it took several months as a full-time job). The trade-off between time investment vs outcome has been seriously challenged, and it doesn't help that possibilities increase drastically now TLG introduces many new parts every year. I really enjoyed the clean, thought-through official models from a decade ago, but now many complex models feel clogged and clunky, filled with many small parts to achieve a function rather than an optimized design. However when I made a showcase on how for example the Bugatti Chiron could be improved by being more part efficient, most people were mainly interested in the process of cramming in as many functions as possible as in pimp-my-Bugatti. This is not motivating.
  • Our attention span and interaction time has reduced significantly since the coming of smart phones, where everything has to go fast and is consumed immediately, the so called instant gratification. Feedback has been reduced to the number of likes or dislikes one gets. From what I understand many recent comments on EB confirms this new trend. This is not motivating. I already addressed this issue several years ago.
  • Related to this is that we have become much more attracted to visual stimulation. Reading and writing text takes way too long. Just take a picture or short clip instead, which is so much easier and faster to make and digest, especially now that our smart devices all include excellent cameras. Who cares for WiPs or reliable functions in a Technic model nowadays? This is not motivating. Also this I tried to address earlier in an article.
  • And of course life happens, where you have to re-prioritize, and building a Technic model simply becomes less motivating.

Instead I have shifted my focus to another type of LEGO building which I also enjoy; alternatives from official (Creator Expert) sets. Much less hassle, takes a lot less time to develop and seems to get more attention. Making instructions for these is not that bad either. Have presented some of them here in EB, but got very little response so stopped posting altogether...

Edited by NKubate

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Very thorough and well-executed response.  I fear the first two directly relate to the OP's initial concerns (if I am not mistaken, or at least one of the first responses) in that "all the good ideas are taken."  I am not sure if this is true, but I get that it can sometimes FEEL true... if you get my meaning.  

Also, I can see how TLG introducing new parts can be de-motivating, and at least IMO very much calls into question this idea of Lego-purism.  But at the same time, doesn't new parts open a whole new book of challenges? I mean, are there not some parts (like wave selector, or new frame piece) that open up a whole new world of possibilities? 

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2 hours ago, NKubate said:

I feel sorry for this because I was very excited about your project and I wasn't interested in the "cramming as many features" version. I share the same principles as you (I could never reach your level) and yes, it is demotivating that most fans and MOCers don't really care about the building quality, which is a bit shame because that's really the point in pursuing a construction toy hobby: Because there are cheaper and more effective ways than Lego to make functioning and good looking models. What's the point in sculpting a Lego (and deny its own laws) to a point where it doesn't look Lego any more.

I talked a few times about the same thing with Paul Boratko, it's not surprising that he doesn't really share his stuff here any more.

2 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

Also, I can see how TLG introducing new parts can be de-motivating, and at least IMO very much calls into question this idea of Lego-purism.  But at the same time, doesn't new parts open a whole new book of challenges? I mean, are there not some parts (like wave selector, or new frame piece) that open up a whole new world of possibilities? 

Yes, but as it was already mentioned, this also puts stress on the design process as the circumstances are continuously changing. Developing something for months that becomes totally obsolete  with introducing some new parts is extremely demotivating. This was one reason why I pushed myself finishing my models even if I didn't feel the design was mature enough. And this drive certainly doesn't help quality and wow-ness of a MOC. And I do feel that new parts are coming out more frequently and in bigger quantities nowadays.

Edited by Lipko

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2 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

Very thorough and well-executed response.  I fear the first two directly relate to the OP's initial concerns (if I am not mistaken, or at least one of the first responses) in that "all the good ideas are taken."  I am not sure if this is true, but I get that it can sometimes FEEL true... if you get my meaning.  

Also, I can see how TLG introducing new parts can be de-motivating, and at least IMO very much calls into question this idea of Lego-purism.  But at the same time, doesn't new parts open a whole new book of challenges? I mean, are there not some parts (like wave selector, or new frame piece) that open up a whole new world of possibilities? 

LOL, It only took me about an hour to formulate this response and still I forgot a couple of others factors. You're probably right that it's the FEEL that everything has already been done that is demotivating. Also I agree that new pieces open up more possibilities for something innovative, but in this case the argument was about the time it takes to design a model and with more elements to choose from this increases the number of variables that have to be tested and evaluated which takes time. Some already mentioned here that they feel like they have a hard time to get their models finished, trying to improve all the time or as Lipko wrote, that there is extra pressure to finish before the model feels obsolete.

There are also a few more general factors that demotivate any type of model building, some of which have been addressed by others as well:

  • From experience I know exactly what is properly designed and built and what is not, either when structures are not properly braced or when "illegal" principles are used which put unnecessary stress on elements. I put a lot of effort in making sure everything is close to TLG standard, and if I make instructions that they provide an excellent experience. But this is not something that is appreciated and noticed when I present my models. All that matters is that it looks great. This is not motivating.
  • All the most popular models are replicas of real life vehicles, whereas I prefer to go for my own designs that borrow perhaps smaller elements of some real life counterpart. It's not motivating when unique designs are receiving a lot less interest.
  • People and companies taking advantage of someone's intellectual property for personal gain where suddenly everything that is on the Internet is considered common domain. Who cares about (registered) trademarks, copyrights, patents,..? I guess not everyone has this problem, but it's deeply discouraging when people steal and use (my) ideas without any form of credit or compensation. Meanwhile I do everything I can to not infringe any type of rights and give credit where credit is due, but nobody seems to care or appreciate this. The frustration is sometimes seriously challenging my motivation and joy. 

Ok, I think I should stop now before I convince myself that it's better to quit building...

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37 minutes ago, Lipko said:

<snip>

Yes, but as it was already mentioned, this also puts stress on the design process as the circumstances are continuously changing. Developing something for months that becomes totally obsolete  with introducing some new parts is extremely demotivating. This was one reason why I pushed myself finishing my models even if I didn't feel the design was mature enough. And this drive certainly doesn't help quality and wow-ness of a MOC. And I do feel that new parts are coming out more frequently and in bigger quantities nowadays.

I don't think there has been much more new parts in the last few years than there were in the past. I took a look at Technicopedia's yearly summaries and for me it appears that for most of Technic's history there has been some 5-10 functionally new parts per year, sometimes less and sometimes more. I say functionally new, because stuff like wheels and tires don't really make anything possible that wasn't possible before.

Majority of the new parts are of course relatively minor in functional upgrades (like different lengths of an axle or liftarm) but there are few which revolutionize design possibilities, like the pin with pinhole from 2015 or the wave selector from 2018. In any case, new parts making old designs obsolete has been part of Technic as long as it has existed.

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2 hours ago, Lipko said:

Developing something for months that becomes totally obsolete  with introducing some new parts is extremely demotivating. This was one reason why I pushed myself finishing my models even if I didn't feel the design was mature enough. And this drive certainly doesn't help quality and wow-ness of a MOC. And I do feel that new parts are coming out more frequently and in bigger quantities nowadays.

I thought it was opposite in general community. I mean new parts are welcome as long as they solve problems about stress, stability or they are innovative. this is a distinction on who is building, casual or pro. if you are a casual builder (like me) then I do not lose much and also I do not go into unnecessary faulty designs because I can see it is not working. A pro like you guys would go forward with the idea and spend months perhaps to solve it. I think Sariel mentioned it above already. he would fix his MOC in a day and move over in old days but maybe he would spend weeks for small improvements now. I would not, I am not going that deep into my MOCs about perfection. it is a hobby and not everyone checks details as you might think. functionality without problems or no illegal movement is enough for me and I would not be demotivated because a new piece comes and solves the complex problem nicely. I would be demotivated if new pieces about RC stuff comes or panels comes, or unusable colors for me. it all depends what you are looking for. maybe a pro would like different colors/panels more, I dont know.

to be honest at every new piece introduced (not panels) I would again get motivated and try to buy it (bricklink or lego shop) to build something, use that new piece. is it frustrating? yes, but demotivating? not at all, it is opposite for me in general.

example: I always wanted to build a large scale borderlands vehicle and I was thinking of 9398 tires. I dumped the idea long ago, I did not like the tires. then the claas tires came out and I started axles immediately after buying those tires from bricklink. same with 3L driving rings, sliding connectors inside it, porsche wheels, black wheel hubs and chiron orange gear switchers. if those new pieces do not come up then you have to repeat yourself at every year and the hobby shall become extremely boring.

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2 hours ago, NKubate said:

I know exactly what is properly designed and built and what is not, either when structures are not properly braced or when "illegal" principles are used which put unnecessary stress on elements. I put a lot of effort in making sure everything is close to TLG standard [...] But this is not something that is appreciated and noticed when I present my models. All that matters is that it looks great. This is not motivating.

Let's be honnest : most people and Lego fans just lack the knowledge and skill to appreciate that kind of aspect of a (lego) design.

We have been discussing this like 1000 times by email. I mean, just look at the comments we can read about the comparison between MOCs and official products...

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I have not noticed a decrease in the number of TECHNIC mocs created.  Rebrickable is alive and well with a steady stream of new MOCs to keep.  I honestly can't keep up.  

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7 hours ago, Anio said:

Let's be honnest : most people and Lego fans just lack the knowledge and skill to appreciate that kind of aspect of a (lego) design.

We have been discussing this like 1000 times by email. I mean, just look at the comments we can read about the comparison between MOCs and official products...

This principle applies to almost everything: only those who are highly skilled on something can truly appreciate the best works for what they are. I'm a goldsmith and I have seen this so many times over my career, the customers who can truly appreciate good workmanship are few and far between but the actual appreciation of one's work comes from colleagues. I'm sure the same happens with for example programmers or musicians or whoever.

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10 hours ago, scynox said:

I thought it was opposite in general community. I mean new parts are welcome as long as they solve problems about stress, stability or they are innovative. this is a distinction on who is building, casual or pro. if you are a casual builder (like me) then I do not lose much and also I do not go into unnecessary faulty designs because I can see it is not working. A pro like you guys would go forward with the idea and spend months perhaps to solve it. I think Sariel mentioned it above already. he would fix his MOC in a day and move over in old days but maybe he would spend weeks for small improvements now. I would not, I am not going that deep into my MOCs about perfection. it is a hobby and not everyone checks details as you might think. functionality without problems or no illegal movement is enough for me and I would not be demotivated because a new piece comes and solves the complex problem nicely. I would be demotivated if new pieces about RC stuff comes or panels comes, or unusable colors for me. it all depends what you are looking for. maybe a pro would like different colors/panels more, I dont know.

to be honest at every new piece introduced (not panels) I would again get motivated and try to buy it (bricklink or lego shop) to build something, use that new piece. is it frustrating? yes, but demotivating? not at all, it is opposite for me in general.

example: I always wanted to build a large scale borderlands vehicle and I was thinking of 9398 tires. I dumped the idea long ago, I did not like the tires. then the claas tires came out and I started axles immediately after buying those tires from bricklink. same with 3L driving rings, sliding connectors inside it, porsche wheels, black wheel hubs and chiron orange gear switchers. if those new pieces do not come up then you have to repeat yourself at every year and the hobby shall become extremely boring.

I didn't say it's a problem (because it's an awesome thing), even if sounded so. It's not about perfectionism, I was expressing that it can be a bit demotivational for many of us, who don't have the time or the brain speed to quickly design MOCs.

And by demotivating I don't mean totally demotivating, just a small annoyance along with the others well-expressed by NKubate, which can erode motivation during many years and MOCs. The thread is not about how bad Lego is, it's about the decreasing number of MOCs shared on this site, which is a combination of many old members slowly loosing motivation and that new builders doesn't come here often enough to fill the gaps, probably because this site is no longer a market-leading space partly due to it's web1.0 design :)

Edited by Lipko

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10 years ago when I joined all I built was Lego sets and no MOCs, now it’s the other way round, if I get gifted a set for xmas etc. I build it and strip it down for spares. My early MOCs were not great but as time went by you learn from mistakes and other's knowledge to improve.

Time to halt this discussion, and get back to building Lego again, be that sets or MOCs.

For me I enjoy the challenge of creating something new, and improving past MOCs.

My Last post on this topic.

Edited by Doug72

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16 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

10 years ago when I joined all I built was Lego sets and no MOCs, now it’s the other way round, if I get gifted a set for xmas etc. I build it and strip it down for spares. Ny early MOCs were not great but as time went by you learn from mistakes a other's knowledge to improve.

Time to halt this discussion, and get back to building Lego again, be that sets or MOCs.

For me I enjoy the challenge of creating something new, and improving past MOCs.

Last comment from me:

Making comments, reading the thread, etc: 2-3 hours, which can be done from job. Designing a simple model: 20 hours.

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The reason I stopped building was purely work. I started my first job around 2 years ago and the workload was too high to balance with my Lego hobby. So I had to prioritize.

Thankfully things are starting to slow down at work, and I’ve been slowly getting back into it.

Being a super car enthusiast, what I’ve noticed is how saturated the MOC space is with supercars, and how similar they are to each other. They’re all basically the same thing underneath the skin with a new body. That’s... boring. I feel as if people have shifted their focus from the technical mechanical details to just mainly creating attractive bodywork. Maybe that’s TLGs fault because they have laid pretty solid mechanical foundations with their 3 big supercars, and MOCers have become complacent to the point where they just keep skinning the cat in a 100 different ways.

I’ve set myself some lofty goals with my new project, and hopefully it can contribute at least a little to make a stagnant space become a little bit more lively. 
 

 

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There are some very impassioned arguments. The one thing I would like to say to all builders please don't stop creating as it's always nice to see mocs of all standards and styles and to add to my bucket list of one day...

Unfortunately my job and life do not leave me many hours for lego. So as someone always looking in it's nice to see. But also certainly I feel comments should be positive ( we do live in a touchy feelings world but also look at the diverse range of cultures on eurobricks slang in my language could be highly offensive in another. )

I'm just a simple truck driver ( haha yea right some of you would say)...

Kind regards Matt 

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I'm currently looking at the most "HOT" topics on the forum and it's kind of sad to see the following trend:

The 100 something parts 42116 Skid Steer loader which was designed and optimized to be as cheap and with minimum amount of parts has more replies and activity than the 3500+ parts MOC of the Mclaren Senna.

I don't think this would be as prelavant some 10 years ago, it seems nowadays people respect MOCs less and concentrate way more on sets?

Edited by Zerobricks

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