Decreasing number of MOCs: affected by criticism?

[doug72]

Since Lockdown 1 in April I have built the 42100, which was an enjoyable build but found it not very playable and gathering dust on a shelf.

Since then I have built several complicated MOCs, and improved previous MOS, which has kept me sane Mentally active.

Most of my posts don,t get any response, but that doesn’t bother me as I enjoy the challenge of getting them to work as intended.

Now in lock down 2 now so more MOCs to come .

[Andman]

On 11/16/2020 at 11:15 AM, Sariel said:

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

Hi Sariel, I'm following you now for many years and I really admire your models and skills. So consider me as a huge fan. But that particular comment... With all legitimate criticism about the construction you were referring to, addressing someone condescendingly is not criticism and your comment could be easily understood as such. For my taste it was a bit too much, for other people it was obviously not. I mean I'm aware that a lot of non-vocal communication is lost when text post are used. In a face to face conversation you might have said that which a smile, which could have had a total different outcome.

On 11/16/2020 at 1:01 PM, Jim said:

Let's not forget that most of us have been around for a decade (some more, some less) or so. In the beginning you are enthusiastic about being part of the community and making lots of posts. But after ten year you tend to skip the "less important topics" (with all due respect).

I do think that giving a simple response is better than no response at all, but that will diminish the quality of the topic. On the other hand; a topic with no responses isn't exactly a quality topic either.

The German forum doctor-brick has a like button for posts. I find that very useful. First, because even when no one is replying to my post and can see these likes, which is motivating. Second, quite often i just have nothing to add. So i just leave a like. Was something like this discussed here? I think this would have motivated that guy to develop more attachments. But that's just my assumption that he stopped because of the lack of feedback.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Andman

[JintaiZ]

To be honest, I think the number of MOCs aren't decreasing by any means... when people are stuck at home one of the only things to do is build LEGO; and there's plenty of new MOCs showing up and youtube...

[proran]

Okay, let me add my two cents to the “criticism/no criticism” discussion. As creators we have a number of tools at our disposal to share our work. Eurobricks is one, but there are others such as Facebook, Flickr, etc. When sharing a MOC it is up to you to select a tool you want. I post on EB because I can get criticism here. Nowhere else you can get real feedback from such an array of brilliant builders. If you are afraid your MOC is not good enough and won’t get much attention here - don’t post. Post somewhere else. If you don’t like the criticism - post somewhere else. I think no one will argue that a good MOC always gets a proper attention here. Yes, MLonger can be harsh, but, hey, you got the Master’s attention. You should be proud!

Eurobricks is a unique place. Honestly I would not change a thing. Jim an Milan are doing a great job of guiding the newbies and most of the masters are still here and active. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by proran
Typos

[nerdsforprez]

9 minutes ago, proran said:

Okay, let me add my two cents to the “criticism/no criticism” discussion. As creators we have a number of tools at our disposal to share our work. Eurobricks is one, but there are others such as Facebook, Flickr, etc. When sharing a MOC it is up to you to select a tool you want. I post on EB because I can a criticism here. Nowhere else you can get real feedback from such an array of brilliant builders. If you are afraid your MOC is not good and won’t get much attention here - don’t post. Post some where else. If you don’t like the criticism- post somewhere else. I think no one will argue that a good MOC always gets a proper attention here. Yes, MLonger can be harsh, but, hey, you got the Master’s attention. You should be proud!

Eurobricks is a unique place. Honestly I would not change a thing. Jim an Milan are doing a great job of guiding the newbies and most of the masters are still here and active. 

best comment yet.

[Bartybum]

Agreed that Jim and Milan are doign a great job, but we really need more contests and better networking among other social media groups

[dhc6twinotter]

I joined EB a little over 10 years ago, and I think there's definitely been a shift in the EB community.   Over the past few years, I've seen a decline in the number of MOCs built, and I've also seen a lot more MOD posts, or people asking for instructions, or people asking other people to solve problems, etc.  All these things are fine in the forum, but personally, I much prefer to see MOCs built, or seeing creative solutions people come up with on their own.  Maybe I'm just old-fashioned.  We had some amazingly talented people on this forum back 10 years ago, and I miss seeing the builds by Mahjqa, Milan, Efferman, AllanP, AlasdairRyan, Crowkillers, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting.  I miss all the fantastic renders by Blakbird as well.  I know some of these people still frequent the forum, but I think everybody, like myself, have gotten busy with life.  Personally, I think the forum went through a dry stretch for a few years, and I lost quite a bit of interest, mostly for the lack of interesting content.  Thankfully, we do still have some old-timers that still build MOCs (jorgeopesi, Eric Leppen, Sariel, Jeroen Ottens, and others), as well as some great new talent on the forums.  I've seeing some really fantastic aviation and machinery related MOCs on here now.   

[EDIT]: One of the other posters mentioned that there seems to be a shift with the focus being more on aesthetics rather than functions.  I would agree with that, and I think it's kinda sad.  This is Technic, and while aesthetics always draws some brownie points, the focus should always be on the technical aspects of a build.  I find that mechanical complexity, structural integrity, and build techniques are a much better measure of somebody's LEGO skill than aesthetics.  I've seen some beautiful MOCs that have some very questionable build techniques.    But, that's just me, and I know others feel differently.  Some of the past contests are proof of that. 

Personally, I haven't built anything in probably five years.  A sort of dark-ages, I suppose, although I do dabble with little sub-assemblies and ideas here and there.  I've been working on a RC pneumatic road grader for five years now.  Life happens, and since the last MOC I posted, I've moved from the east coast to a small island on the west coast.  I've gone from a two bedroom apartment to a one bedroom apartment with little room to build LEGO.  I've gotten busy with work, volunteering, travel, learning photography, and I'm not quite the hermit I used to be (yay! ).  All that's to say that I just haven't had as much drive to spend time with my LEGO.  That being said, I have been tinkering with my road grader a bit lately, so maybe once I finish re-organizing my apartment, I'll break out the LEGO again and maybe have another MOC to post in the future.

Just my $0.02.

Edited November 18, 2020 by dhc6twinotter

[Andman]

4 hours ago, proran said:

Okay, let me add my two cents to the “criticism/no criticism” discussion. As creators we have a number of tools at our disposal to share our work. Eurobricks is one, but there are others such as Facebook, Flickr, etc. When sharing a MOC it is up to you to select a tool you want. I post on EB because I can get criticism here. Nowhere else you can get real feedback from such an array of brilliant builders. If you are afraid your MOC is not good enough and won’t get much attention here - don’t post. Post somewhere else. If you don’t like the criticism - post somewhere else. I think no one will argue that a good MOC always gets a proper attention here. Yes, MLonger can be harsh, but, hey, you got the Master’s attention. You should be proud!

Eurobricks is a unique place. Honestly I would not change a thing. Jim an Milan are doing a great job of guiding the newbies and most of the masters are still here and active. 

Sorry for going OT again. This is discussion is not about criticism or no criticism. I think no one here argues that criticism should be forbidden. So, I fully agree that if you post here, you should be prepared to receive criticism. But the way you express criticism can range from too much glitter, unicorns and rainbows to too harsh and/or condescending. Neither is good, The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. Honesty is important and so is mutual respect. So, if someone does a (huge) mistake, he or she should be made aware of that mistake. But you might want to do that in a way that people are still encouraged to continue to post here. And that brings me to one of you other sentences.

4 hours ago, proran said:

If you are afraid your MOC is not good enough and won’t get much attention here - don’t post.

I think if you have that as a general principle here, the chances aren't that low that this forum will slowly shrink until only the best of the best cavort here and gradually become fewer and fewer because there is no more growth in members the old master will drop out one by one.

In addition you have this general problem between sender and receiver. What someone says with a certain intention does not necessarily reach the recipient in the way it was intended. This becomes even stronger if one communicates exclusively via text messages. Someone may see a hair-raising construction and react somewhat condescendingly with a smile. This smile would soften the condescending comment. Everybody would understand that it is not so serious. But here a smile can't be seen. At least if you aren't using smileys. But by saying this I don't mean that we all should be totally careful and read what we write 10 times before we send just to make sure we don't hurt any feelings. As i wrote earlier: Neither too harsh comments nor too much glitter/unicorn/rainbows are good. Again, somewhere in between is the sweet spot.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Andman

[scynox]

5 hours ago, proran said:

Nowhere else you can get real feedback from such an array of brilliant builders. If you are afraid your MOC is not good enough and won’t get much attention here - don’t post. Post somewhere else. If you don’t like the criticism - post somewhere else. I think no one will argue that a good MOC always gets a proper attention here. Yes, MLonger can be harsh, but, hey, you got the Master’s attention. You should be proud!

worst comment ever. that is what others above talking about the opposite. some people claim and even link to topics that got few or zero attention and you say a good MOC always gets a proper attention here? oh, nice to hear all these guys' and also my MOCs were trash too.

[allanp]

RE: criticisms, I think it's quite simple. If you are looking for constructive critism then you can ask for it, or not mention it and expect to receive some anyway. If you don't want any critism then just say that this was built just for fun, or that you are finished and not looking for ideas for improvement. The hashtag idea might also serve this purpose. 

[Lasse D]

1 hour ago, scynox said:

worst comment ever. that is what others above talking about the opposite. some people claim and even link to topics that got few or zero attention and you say a good MOC always gets a proper attention here? oh, nice to hear all these guys' and also my MOCs were trash too.

Yeah, that one was pretty grafting. I have another example. There is a model of a race car posted on EB which received the attention of the driver of the race car on Twitter who requested it for an official LEGO set. It received shoutouts and articles from FIA WEC (the race organisers of WEC races, including the biggest race in the World, Le Mans), dailysportscar.com (One of the biggest magazines covering the racing world), The LEGO Car Blog, Metropolitan Magazine, and SportsCar En Español (my Spanish is not good enough to know what they are all about, but hey... they made articles with shoutouts for this particular LEGO model!).

How many comments did the MOC attract on Eurobricks where it was presented including the WIP photos?

Zero.

And according to @proran it was therefore not a good MOC. Now @proran might be right. But as I said initially. When people put in a lot of effort in their content and get no feedback, do not be surprised if they next time only post elsewhere.

[keymaker]

@Lasse D very interesting example, could you share a link to the topic/MOC?

[nerdsforprez]

4 hours ago, Andman said:

Sorry for going OT again. This is discussion is not about criticism or no criticism.

Correct.  At least not in terms of whether folks here on EB can handle it or not.  On whether criticism on this site is too harsh and therefore scares some folks away from posting, criticism vs. no criticism certainly has some merit to the discussion.  

But on whether or not folks can handle criticism on this site or not - this is an issue that keeps coming up again and again and again and again.  

@milan warned me before not to make things personal so I will not.  I will keep it focused on an idea; the idea that EB members can't take criticism.  I think it is an idea that needs to be defended.  It was not a focus on this discussion until this statement.  And I quote: 

"You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried."

This is an indictment against the EB community and I for one am angered by it.  It insinuates that we are all a bunch of sissies. Does any one else feel the same?  If I am alone here... I will shut-up, but if it angers others I would like to also hear from them.  Of course there are some outliers. Of course there are some instances where this applies. But I think they are definitely exceptions to the rule and not rules themselves. We literally have thousands of positive examples, finished products and WIPs where there is positive interaction between creators of projects and those leaving feedback to very few who show an oversensitivity to any criticism.  

And this perception of "trust me I have tried" seems to me flawed.   I do not know where the poster of this comment gets this perception, but I believe it stems from a conversation where he literally tells the builder his creation hurts his eyes.  Not to mention a litany of other responses that are just outright insulting.  When others in the forum try to point out the distinction of insults versus criticism the poster then threatens to leave the community.  Later he accuses someone of breaking an embargo date with no data or hard evidence whatsoever.  Example after example of this behavior (but, to be fair, many many more positive examples of constructive posting behavior).  I believe this is the instance, among others, that this flawed perception is coming from.  

I encourage others to view the perception that EB members can't take criticism with skepticism.  Perhaps I am wrong.  But it appears to me that it is a baseless perception and a false narrative disseminated by a select few who do not know the difference between insults and criticism and have ben called on it in the past.  If there is any truth to this, I recommend we try to limit derailing this and other threads with this false narrative and misguided logic. 

 

[proran]

Okay. Guys please don’t take it personally. Let me elaborate on what I was trying to say. 
I myself don’t comment here often. For me to comment two conditions should be met:

1. I like the MOC and it resonates with me (compact with manual functions - oh yes, giant Mindstroms controlled - not so much)

2. I have something to add to the discussion. It can be criticism or, in most cases, I like to highlight for others the part I find interesting. 

So sometimes I don’t post under awesome MOCs. And I assume others do the same thing. Would I be disappointed if my MOC will get zero comments - probably yes. Will I like it less, or will it discourage me from building or posting here - hell no.

I am not here for likes. 
I can get it somewhere else. You put it out here and you either get some useful feedback or not. 
And the race car example is brilliant. Why get upset about the EB if you got driver’s attention and was published in a magazine?

Edited November 18, 2020 by proran
Typos

[Lasse D]

2 hours ago, keymaker said:

@Lasse D very interesting example, could you share a link to the topic/MOC?

It is one of my own threads, and I don't want this to become a plea like "please comment on my MOC". It was merely to illustrate a counterpoint to one of the opinions displayed in this thread.

 

38 minutes ago, proran said:

And the race car example is brilliant. Why get upset about the EB if you got driver’s attention and was published in a magazine?

You are moving the goalpost and misrepresenting the example. The example was a rebuttal to your initial comment that a good MOC would receive feedback. Nothing else.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Lasse D
Added feedback on latest post.

[Andman]

2 hours ago, proran said:

I am not here for likes. 

For what are you here?

[JintaiZ]

4 minutes ago, Andman said:

For what are you here?

To share creations and receive feedback.

[Lipko]

41 minutes ago, Andman said:

For what are you here?

I'm here for being included in Lego themed books and to be invited to TV shows. So that I'd b famous and very cool. Or get donations so I can quit my daily job. Or get a comment from Sariel/M_Longer/Mahj on a MOC of mine at last.

Missions not accomplished.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Lipko

[brunojj1]

2 hours ago, Lipko said:

... Or get a comment from Sariel/M_Longer/Mahj on a MOC of mine at last.

+1 

It can be helpful from time to time to lissen to experts, take their (typical) humour (or lack of it) as granted. Just don´t make the same mistakes in the next project and develop clever techniques.

But there are very different people with different goals from different continents with very different mentalities on here...

[hadidi1999]

I don't know if this has been said before, but I personally think with that with the decreasing number of B-models a lot of newer Technic builders aren't being "exposed" to the creativity and excitement that comes with building a MOC. They get a new set and build it, but without a B-model to get the creativity and imagination going I think a lot of people will just stop there.
B-models always manage to get the more creative thoughts flowing.

[Maaboo the Witch]

Just now, hadidi1999 said:

I don't know if this has been said before, but I personally think with that with the decreasing number of B-models a lot of newer Technic builders aren't being "exposed" to the creativity and excitement that comes with building a MOC. They get a new set and build it, but without a B-model to get the creativity and imagination going I think a lot of people will just stop there.
B-models always manage to get the more creative thoughts flowing.

[jorgeopesi]

I am not here for the replies too but it is also clear that its existence give you a kind of recognicing to the MOC. I have received more replies to my cars when I preffer my machines by far, they have a lot of work more and they are more efficient and funny but people still preffering cars for showcases, if I only wanted replies I would do cars, for me Technic is about the minimalistic efficience.

[Brickend]

I've just tried viewing this forum on a phone; it looks awful. I tried to upload a screenshot but obviously it was over 100kb so the forum wouldn't let me. 

If you're used to Facebook / Instagram / Youtube etc. where the site is optimized for mobile viewing and converts the file for the user, I can see why people would skip a site where they have to go through multiple processes. I'd imagine the next generation of people getting into Technic are used to being able to do everything from their phone, fairly efficiently.

The other thing to note is all the above sites are also extremely visual and easily scroll-able; you don't have to click through numerous text links to find something that interests you.

 

 

[Bricktrain]

I am struggling to complete a large build, we have so many new parts released now that you end up rebuilding so many times to use better parts that you never seem to be able to reach the finish.

 

[howitzer]

29 minutes ago, Brickend said:

I've just tried viewing this forum on a phone; it looks awful. I tried to upload a screenshot but obviously it was over 100kb so the forum wouldn't let me. 

If you're used to Facebook / Instagram / Youtube etc. where the site is optimized for mobile viewing and converts the file for the user, I can see why people would skip a site where they have to go through multiple processes. I'd imagine the next generation of people getting into Technic are used to being able to do everything from their phone, fairly efficiently.

The other thing to note is all the above sites are also extremely visual and easily scroll-able; you don't have to click through numerous text links to find something that interests you.

For an old-timer like myself this current format of the forum is great, as I'd never even think of viewing it with mobile phone, but you're right in that for the younger generation mobile phone is the norm for Internet browsing so if they stumble upon Eurobricks, they will be easily turned away by the layout and poor mobile usability. I don't know what would be involved in this forum more mobile-friendly, but I can imagine it wouldn't be easy though. It's hard to imagine how long, in-depth posts with multiple photos could be easily viewable on the small screen of a phone, there's just no substitute to a large screen so I'm not sure if EB should even consider changing the layout for mobile viewing.