Decreasing number of MOCs: affected by criticism?

[TechnicRCRacer]

9 hours ago, amorti said:

if you feel short of confidence, post it as a WIP. You can always get good tips in here.

+1

[howitzer]

The high quality of the many MOCs posted is somewhat off-putting to someone lowly skilled such as myself. I try not to allow it to prevent myself from posting but still it makes one carefully think how to present the MOC. Of course us who are less skilled should post also more so that the forum doesn't create an impression that cool, well-built MOCs are easy thing to do and those who can't seem to accomplish that on the first try are just bad builders.

[Jurss]

Then we need to introduce beginners moc subforum ... but who would will to post there?

I'm posting, and doesn't care too much, if there is no response. Of corse, it is pleasant to receive any comment.

But to start really topic as WIP, is a good aproach. But then sometimes, when You even did good job, there is then after that not so much response, as if somebody would post that as finished MOC.

[Jim]

Haven't read all the posts, but one thing that's clearly affecting the number of MOCs posted is the competition of other social media. Posting a pic on Facebook is much less intimidating than posting here and getting no response.

[MinusAndy]

I’ve not been on here long but I’ve noticed that most Mocs don’t get comments in terms of how bits work or how things are created. But comments by grown ups asking for instructions.

lego using instructions is basically a jigsaw. if you can count and recognise shapes and colours you can build it. 

The thing that drew me to this forum is the delight of seeing Mocs that people have created with ingenious functions and use of outside the box parts and building techniques. 
I feel if we aren’t discussing that sort of thing and just want instructions we may as well just trawl through rebrickable.

That said, looking down the front page yesterday showed cool Mocs like the motor grader, huge helicopter, tractor units, an automated warehouse system etc etc.

loads and loads of really interesting stuff.

[agrof]

Long time not logged in, life is happening over here, so the focus is more on rebuild the fundamentals in my life, rather than building with LEGO.  Also outdoor activities are preferred after sitting in the office / home office for 8-10 hours.

Regarding the MOCs: what I miss and see lack of those, are the WIP topics, where we can keep boiling the community. Honestly, it is also boring to me - as reader/ user - to see ready MOCs presented... honestly, what can be commented? "Nice, Excellent, Awesome, Any chance for instructions?"... none of those lead to real dialogues. So I would like to see WIP topics, whatever the subjective judgment of the build. I struggle to understand the term "not good enough"... so what? We are here to PLAY, to ENJOY, to SHARE. I encourage everyone to go for small builds, explore creative part usage (why not share just an interesting connection method as news?), and share whatever build. It is all about the fun and the community. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by agrof

[doug72]

7 minutes ago, agrof said:

Regarding the MOCs: what I miss and see lack of those, are the WIP topics, where we can keep boiling the community. Honestly, it is also boring to me - as reader/ user - to see ready MOCs presented... honestly, what can be commented? "Nice, Excellent, Awesome, Any chance for instructions?"... none of those lead to real dialogues. So I would like to see WIP topics, whatever the subjective judgment of the build. I struggle to understand the term "not good enough"... so what? We are here to PLAY, to ENJOY, to SHARE. I encourage everyone to go for small builds, explore creative part usage (why not share just an interesting connection method as news?), and share whatever build. It is all about the fun and the community. 

Agree, Your in luck I will be posting a WIP soon once same parts on order are received.

[keymaker]

Most probably posting on insta or FB is easier and faster than in here, what is more giving a like (or not) is also much easier thing than posting on forum where you have to think a bit more about what you want to say and post it.

Next thing I observe is lack of criticism (I mean this constructive one). If your MOC has many basic flaws, then you should receive some constructive criticism. What I obserwe is lack of it. And without it, MOC creators will never improve their designs, because there will noone who can point what is clearly wrong in their constructions.

[Sariel]

3 minutes ago, keymaker said:

Next thing I observe is lack of criticism (I mean this constructive one). If your MOC has many basic flaws, then you should receive some constructive criticism. What I obserwe is lack of it. And without it, MOC creators will never improve their designs, because there will noone who can point what is clearly wrong in their constructions.

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

As for the number of MOCs, I have exactly opposite problem: a long list of ideas, over a dozen models in progress, just not enough time for building because of a full-time job, family and kid. My folder with ideas for MOCs is over 100 items long. At the same time the each single MOC takes longer to complete because of ever-increasing complexity, fancier building techniques, more specialized pieces and so on. Yesterday I've spent 4 hours just shaping my Abrams tank's rear end. 10 years ago I would have probably built most of the model in that time.

[Zerobricks]

26 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Yesterday I've spent 4 hours just shaping my Abrams tank's rear end. 10 years ago I would have probably built most of the model in that time.

Same issue here. 10 years ago i could spam MOCs weekly, but it seems with experience comes attention to details which is time consuming.

I also started to post less and less MOCs here, because the feedback simply isn't there anymore. It's really disheartening spending weeks on a MOC, recording videos, ediing, making LDD files, etc only to post it and having very few replies.

And than icing on a cake you see that none of your Technic models ever make it to the frontpage, while a lot of other themes do, even if the models are much simpler and easier to develop/build.

Also I also feel like there's a subtle racism if you might against Technic themes when compared to others. So many times I heard people saying technic is not real Lego, what's up with that?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Zerobricks

[keymaker]

17 minutes ago, Sariel said:

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

I was a witness of those tries ;) As I remember some time ago there was a discussion related to some sort of suspension, which was, lets say "far from basic rules of physics/technology" and probably it was stresing for parts. And I observed more comments about a single post with criticism of this solution than about problem with solution itself.

[doug72]

When I joined Eurobricks 10 years ago my skills at building Lego Technic MOCs was very low and several MOC projects eventually failed.
But I prodded on until now have learnt from past mistakes & errors in building and with help from other members.

WIP was the norm and very helpful with constructive comments and suggestions etc.

If you are stuck ask for help & keep on tying until you are successful.

WIP seems only to be a requirement when competitions are held. Most posts ralated to MODs of Lego Sets.

Most of my Lego builds now are MOCs and I have only built Lego Technic sets when received them as presents at Xmas & birthdays and later broken down for spares.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Doug72

[Jurss]

34 minutes ago, Sariel said:

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

But it means more posts, which is somehow good.

 

[Sariel]

10 minutes ago, Zerobricks said:

Also I also feel like there's a subtle racism if you might against Technic themes when compared to others. So many times I heard people saying technic is not real Lego, what's up with that?

It's Technicism! ;)

[Jim]

37 minutes ago, Sariel said:

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

You can, but there are different ways to criticize. And not all people have the ability to do it properly.

This is what is usually posted:
"Your suspension will never work."

While this is how a post is supposed to be:
"Nice work on the car. However, I do think you will run into problems with your suspension. You could try modifying x or y so z won't happen. Good luck with the build"

 

 

[nerdsforprez]

There has been some critique from some of our better builders about the quality of responses, not quantity.  I get that it is no fun to get 0 response on a post, but at the same time I think there is some truth behind the complaint that there is a lot of "zero calories" responses.  Responses such as "great job" and "I love it" without detailing what you love or improvements really don't offer much.  We all know that many of us (occasionally, myself included) will just look at the picts of a MOC and not even bother, at least not seriously, with seeing the video or paying attention to the narrative.  

I know personally this is one of the many reasons why my activity has waned the last couple of years.  I have tried to give more substantive responses rather than fluff.  But giving a good, detailed response takes time and energy.  Which obviously is difficult.  Perhaps this is not the right road to take though.  A response with little calories, is a response nonetheless, and perhaps is better than nothing at all.  I dunno.  

1 hour ago, Sariel said:

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

As for the number of MOCs, I have exactly opposite problem: a long list of ideas, over a dozen models in progress, just not enough time for building because of a full-time job, family and kid. My folder with ideas for MOCs is over 100 items long. At the same time the each single MOC takes longer to complete because of ever-increasing complexity, fancier building techniques, more specialized pieces and so on. Yesterday I've spent 4 hours just shaping my Abrams tank's rear end. 10 years ago I would have probably built most of the model in that time.

Lol... we have dealt with this before.  Please remember that folks who have responded in the past will read this, and actually remember old posts, and see through the craftiness here.  

Jim said it well enough.  Criticism does not need to be meanspirited.  Folks have already evaluated some of your past "criticism" weighed and measured it, and well, we all know the outcome.  

[Jim]

3 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

I know personally this is one of the many reasons why my activity has waned the last couple of years.  I have tried to give more substantive responses rather than fluff.  But giving a good, detailed response takes time and energy.  Which obviously is difficult.  Perhaps this is not the right road to take though.  A response with little calories, is a response nonetheless, and perhaps is better than nothing at all.  I dunno.  

Let's not forget that most of us have been around for a decade (some more, some less) or so. In the beginning you are enthusiastic about being part of the community and making lots of posts. But after ten year you tend to skip the "less important topics" (with all due respect).

I do think that giving a simple response is better than no response at all, but that will diminish the quality of the topic. On the other hand; a topic with no responses isn't exactly a quality topic either.

[nerdsforprez]

1 hour ago, Zerobricks said:

 

Also I also feel like there's a subtle racism if you might against Technic themes when compared to others. So many times I heard people saying technic is not real Lego, what's up with that?

Racism is about race and ethnicity.  This is nothing like that.  It is a type of stereotype though, perhaps that is what you meant.  Something subtle, but in todays day and age the distinction really means something.  

Regarding folks who think that Technic is not "real" Lego - that is up to them, but no need to fall for it.  There are many who actually lump "Lego" into some self-proclaimed categories.  It is actually very silly.  Makes you chuckle kind of silly.  Even folks who argue Lego is for deconstructing and rebuilding into something else... its all silliness.  That is their preference, but certainly not something to limit Lego to.  

The mantra the Lego founder had when he created the company and product was to "play well."   How silly it is for any one person to dictate what it means to another person to "play well."  Let's not fall for that type of silliness.  

Edited November 16, 2020 by nerdsforprez

[Ivorrr]

19 hours ago, CalimeroLego said:

here is an humble opinion of a shadow builder : I don't post MOCs because I feel like the quality has gotten so high in certain Mocs that mine are just not worthy of posting them. I could currently post a JCB 1CXT that I've done but it looks mediocre I believe. As I'm here, I just want to say that it's really myself not feeling good enough and not you guys being too mean ! This community feels healthy so don't worry for that, maybe quality is indeed better than quantity ;)

I came back from dark ages about 3-4 years ago and have a similar feeling. I have too high expectations of my MOC so a bit shy posting work here as it is way too basic compared to the awesome work of other creators. 

But reading through the points raised I think the WIP topic might be a good idea to get some feedback on my progress and items I am currently struggling to do in Technic. I will set up one soon for my Chevelle 70' 

[Sariel]

7 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

Folks have already evaluated some of your past "criticism" weighed and measured it, and well, we all know the outcome.  

I like how you think you speak for all of EB. Let me know when you're officially the Vox Populi.

1 hour ago, Jim said:

While this is how a post is supposed to be:
"Nice work on the car. However, I do think you will run into problems with your suspension. You could try modifying x or y so z won't happen. Good luck with the build"

I think it could still use a bit more unicorns and rainbows and fluffy bears and kittens. Seriously though, I have nothing but respect for you Jim but this puts pretty serious limitations on how people can express themselves, so the result is, not surprisingly, that they express themselves less and less. I have no right to tell you how to run your community, but maybe - and this is just a timid observation - maybe if the "adult fans" thing was enforced more effectively here, we would see fewer posts that cause severe facepalms and subsequently fewer or milder criticisms. I keep seeing spammy posts on EB, I keep seeing posts where the author can't post photos or use English, or just writes what he plans to build while not showing any actual building. But of course, this isn't the problem, the problem is when people don't sprinkle enough glitter on their opinions.

[Woodpecker]

6 minutes ago, Jim said:

In the beginning you are enthusiastic about being part of the community and making lots of posts. 

I do think that giving a simple response is better than no response at all, but that will diminish the quality of the topic. On the other hand; a topic with no responses isn't exactly a quality topic either.

As a new member, I'm definitely excited about posting on EB; however, as someone who is also relatively new to Lego in general, I feel unsure about criticising too heavily because I don't really know what I am talking about. 

I know the best way to act in this situation is to stay quiet and wait until I'm fairly confident before posting something, but at the same time I want to be involved, level up, get new ideas, etc. And I'm worried that for me, this will come at the cost of poor responses. I can definitely see the challenge members (especially ones newer to Lego) face in this situation. 

[Zerobricks]

Lately I have been noticing mosty two types of posts here:

1. The pros posting the polished mostly real-life recreations of existing things, which spent hundreds of hours into getting all the details just right and raising the bar

2. The beginners who are enthusiastic about building and creating their own MOCs, but they tend to not listen to advice (positive criticism) very well and are opening many topics looking for a quick, instant solution (gratification) without fixing the underlying issue.

What I think we need is more of the middle ground. Like others said more WIP topics and such.

Yes, it's risky, you will get criticism, but as Jim said the way you are criticized also matters. Just remember to accept the advice from the experienced builders and not to be personally insulted.

Personally looking at my own MOCs some 10 years ago I can see how much I improved and yes, I'd give my past self a lot of constructive criticism.

[nerdsforprez]

19 minutes ago, Sariel said:

we would see fewer posts that cause severe facepalms 

Cause?  Interesting choice of words. Not sure it is correct usage though. 

Take it from the psychologist in the bunch, the fact that you feel you have to do a facepalm because of what someone posts about a HOBBY says a lot more about you than anything else.  Not everyone feels that way Sariel. Your posts just bleed transparency of your need to correct others. It's almost like the universe is thrown off kilter or something (in your eyes) if you see something wrong.  I mean, your disgust sensitivity is off-the-charts man. 

[CalimeroLego]

Thank you for the answers, that's the reason why I like this forum that much :) I'll try to make some decent photos and post this micro backhoe this weekend then. And maybe I was being a little pessimistic but that's how I am lol

[keymaker]

1 minute ago, Zerobricks said:

Yes, it's risky, you will get criticism, but as Jim said the way you are criticized also matters. Just remember to accept the advice from the experienced builders and not to be personally insulted.

If this will be a valid and constructive criticism (and it is easy to veryfiy, because many experienced people see the topic and the criticism and can agree or dissagre with it) then this kind of criticism is definately a welcome one. If adult person cannot handle a constructive criticism, then such person has some more important problems than those related to lego.