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[Great Ball Pit]

Like @RohanBeckett, I'm also a GBC builder who displays a dozen modules at public events.  Now even though I've been able to hard wire my Boost Hub to work with 9v AC power, I don't want to have to go to the local electronics shop, buy some kit then come home and bust out the soldering iron every-time I need to use more of the new tech.

GBC builders need a LEGO created solution to being able to use the old 9v Train controllers with the new motors... How about a a new extension cable so that we can just use the motors with the Classic train controller, that's all we need!

Overall after reading that Q&A, I'm not impressed... I forsee a huge number of GBC builders that will have to purchase a hoard of PF motors to use over the next decade.

[RohanBeckett]

heh.. although I already have around 30M, and 10L, 10XL, I will be buying as many more, as I can afford over the next 6 months!  keep hunting around for Tracked Racers on sale!

Hey @Maico how many motors do YOU have? 

[dr_spock]

Good thing I enjoy soldering.  I could solder the PF connector cable from my dead GBC PF motors to the PU motor...if it gets to the point I have to buy PU motors.  You just need to connect the two wires that go to the motor itself.  Next Double VIP, double the PF motor purchasing time. 

 

[msk6003]

I can't think why TLG just not release bluetooth PF receiver.

[andythenorth]

1 hour ago, msk6003 said:

I can't think why TLG just not release bluetooth PF receiver.

It's a good question.  The only answer I can think of: the bluetooth receiver is tiny.  So a separate receiver would be a needless SKU for a part that can just be in the battery box. 

Changing the wire protocol - they already explained that 

[dr_spock]

5 hours ago, msk6003 said:

I can't think why TLG just not release bluetooth PF receiver.

They don't want to compete with Sbrick but decided to go against Buzzwizz and Pfx bricks?

[Maico]

@RohanBeckett

 

Oh, I don't know how many motors I have. a couple of hundred?, 4 volt, 12 volt, 9 volt several types, pf motors, mindstorms motors for nxt and ev3...

I think this is a nice picture...

Ow, these are the motors I have broken in about ten years of building GBC

[RohanBeckett]

hahah.. wow.. thanks for the impressive, yet sad photo!!

I wonder how many are truly burnt-out, and how many just have broken wires (such a common weakness)

If only they were quicker and easier to repair...

[Maico]

Today I got some info from Aron Lockhart about fixing the motors. I might try that. I have opened some motors, but never the actual electro motor inside.

[Brickthus]

The answers gave a few encouragements, such as how to control multiple hubs from one handset, but it's not easy.  Connecting each one individually and switching off each time still leaves trouble recognising the 2nd one as you restart and try to add up the connections.  Sometimes it goes into a bang-bang control mode too!  That was fixed by turning off and on again.

I noticed that the PWM command on each hub is offset when a hub is first turned on, so going up and down in power without reaching maximum or pressing Stop leaves a buzz at zero speed.  Fixed for the duration of hub On-time by going to maximum or pressing Stop.

As long as we can get the multi-hub control to work, PU should prove to be a good product, at least as good as PF.  I have made sure my Space Monorail is compatible with PU.  I have yet to take pictures of my monorail train that uses it as an alternative to PF.  Serious use for trains or monorail would need a PU hub with a LiPo battery, but I am remaining calm and quietly confident, awaiting developments.

The support for PF should continue while PF sets are on shelves.  42080 is a new 2H2018 set with PF so the support would extend to at least 2 years from now.  Wait and see if any 1H2019 sets have PF included.  After that it will be while stocks last.

Whilst I might agree with M_longer and andythenorth that soldering is going a bit far, using 12V individual plugs is something I did between 9V and PF, mainly to power an IR Receiver from a 9V battery box.  A similar technique would work for the transition from 9V/PF to PU, and it's "all LEGO".  The patent thing is only prohibitive if you intend to make commercial profit from it, or sell in a way that might undermine the patent-holder's market.  Part of the aim of PU is to prevent kids making short circuits; it leads to customer dissatisfaction and expensive replacements.  It was easy to make them in 9V, possible in PF with the 9V backward compatibility but not possible with NXT plugs.  PU retains the impossibility of short circuits but simplifies the NXT plugs, losing the vulnerable clip.  TLG has not ruled out selling female PU sockets for AFOL use but is pensive about selling them to support 3rd-party products.  If I were TLG I would think hard about the balance between losing the initiative electrically, as they did with PF, and the need to satisfy customer functionality desires themselves, when they are a much larger organisation and therefore slower by default.  They will have to think like a start-up if they are to develop PU rapidly themselves in the ways we would like.  I would recommend that TLG licence selected 3rd parties as they did with some NXT sensors.  I bought some licensed sensor types (IR Link, IR Receiver, Colour sensor and RFID sensor) and I would buy licensed PU parts.  This kind of licensing would enable TLG to keep control of its patented connectors but let us get a wider range of electrical parts to play with.

My investigations so far, using 2x train set 60198 (hubs and train motors) have found results consistent with my own assumption that the electrical interface would be similar to NXT/EV3 with the new connector type.  That means pins 1&2 are 0V and 9V for a dumb motor or light (powered either way round but possible to read an RCX-type sensor when the motor drive is off, if the hub supports that), pins 3&4 should be +3.3V and 0V for smart sensors and pins 5&6 should be data pins (open drain) for serial I/O.  This means smart sensors & motors would be recognised by type by their serial IDs, whereas dumb motors have the potential to be recognised by having a resistance of tens of ohms and an inductive load characteristic, if the hub detects voltage and current and has the right software to correlate their changes in time.  This depends on what TLG wants the hub to do.  Certainly the Boost hub can recognise the smart sensor and motor, and the WeDo hub can recognise the motor, motion sensor and tilt sensor.  If the tilt sensor is only a passive device, where a ball-bearing makes one or two of four resistance contacts at a time, then it could be like an RCX passive sensor on pins 1&2 and that would mean passive RCX sensor types could be used (active TBD but more likely to benefit from being smart instead).  The CyberMaster recognised its tools by the resistor in the switch in the module but did not work with active senors; this might be the extent of RCX-type sensing by pins 1&2 in the PU protocol - TBC, for TLG to confirm or deny.

The use of an electrical interface similar to NXT/EV3 also means it would need only 2x 12V individual plugs to connect a dumb motor (including 9V motors or PF motors with pins C1 & C2) to pins 1&2 of a PU male plug lead.  I suspect the port uses a similar motor driver to PF IR Receiver, so it might have the same issue as PF IR Receiver V1 if it were asked to drive 2x PF M-motors in parallel.  This could be a simple reason why daisy-chaining of motors has been prohibited by design.

The use of the NXT/EV3 interface would also give backward compatibility with those types of sensors and motors if a suitable lead were provided (or if AFOLs used 12V plugs to hybridise one).  I'm sure there are software developers ready to get hold of the PU SDK if it were released.  I would suggest that anyone brave enough might like to try splicing an NXT cable to a PU cable, to see if they can control an NXT/EV3 motor.  Identify pin 1 of the NXT cable and connect to pin 1 of the PU cable and so on.  Use a multimeter to check each port; voltage setting of 20V for hubs, resistance setting of 10-30 ohms for motors.  I don't expect the motor's encoder to work with the train hub, but it might work with the Boost or WeDo hubs.  Caveat: no responsibility is taken for your experiments or any damage consequences from them, whether you take the suggestion or not.  If you try it and succeed, please post here.

I would like to see three things from TLG regarding PU:

1. Confirmation that the electrical interface is similar to the NXT/EV3 or confirmation of what it is, if it were different.
2. Images and descriptions of the simplest products in the PU range, as soon as possible.  It has to be cheaper than the hub to add a motor and battery to a model without needing Bluetooth control, preferably also with a pole reverser switch.  There should be a PU kit to replace PF kit 8293, preferably starting in 2019 and sold in parallel with 8293, to help the transition.  The price point of £30 looks difficult to achieve because the light brick 88005 is already £8.99 rather than £5.49.  The lower the entry point price, the better for children.
3. A PU LiPo multiplexer hub, in a 4x8x3 box, including the LiPo cells and charging socket of PF battery 8878, a flying lead to take commands from a PU hub, 2 ports on one end of the box (using the PU hub port positions) copying the motor drive input and 2 ports on the other end copying it in reverse (swap pins 1&2 or drive the opposite way round from the other channel of the motor driver).  This device would enable 2-motor train locomotives by plugging a train motor into each end.  It would power the motors with the LiPo battery and keep the AAAs for just the Bluetooth part.  The motor driver chip can drive 2x motors per channel so that would make use of it for 4 motors.  The multiplexer hub would also behave like an NXT/EV3 multiplexer for smart sensors and motors.  Target price £50, perhaps £55 including the smart sensor functions.

While I wait for PU to develop, I am encouraged in pneumatics.  We have a new valve switch in set 42080 and it is possible to order them separately over the phone for about £2 each (pneumatic parts always show "Out Of Stock" on the LS@H "Buy Bricks" page, if they are listed at all.  Other parts may be ordered either individually from that set or by the pneumatic bag of a set like 42043 (around £44.71 for 9 parts plus 28 tubes).  This gives us the option to enjoy mechanical control systems while we wait-and-see for the electrical ones.

Mark