Book III - Varlyrio: Guild sign-up and Discussion

[mccoyed]

57 minutes ago, The Stad said:

Not to gang up, but I think this is an important point to the whole conversation, and one which mccoyed has touched upon.  Without a deep backstory to the symbol within the fictional faith group, it is very difficult for the standard viewer to understand why a Latin cross, crescent moon, six-pointed star, eight-spoked wheel, etc. would show up repeatedly in a build (especially when paired with architectural forms inspired by real-world regions where that particular symbol is common).  What is it doing there if it's not analogous to a real-world faith?  Why is it a part of this fictional religion?  What does it symbolize here? 

I don't think anyone's saying that certain symbols can't be used, but they need to be given a deep and logical context within this shared fiction, partly for us to distance them from real-world ideologies, but even more for the sake of good storytelling in a rich fantasy world.

Good points.

51 minutes ago, Henjin_Quilones said:

@mccoyed I liked your lore. I was thinking that your way of phrasing things was good for the context of Historica; I was posing the questions to help others figure out what they might want to do for themselves, rather than defaulting to real-world symbols and traditions. The Aslanic temples were perfectly fine by me, even if a few layers down they are based on Christianity. I have nothing against Christian references, being Christian myself, as long as in-game they make sense. 

@The Stad Exactly. 

@Mike S To say that a cross on top of a church in Historica has no inherent Christian meaning is just patently absurd. It is a deliberate homage or reference to common Christian iconography, even if yes, the geometric shape of a cross could in fact have other meanings for other people in other contexts. However, I have never seen a picture of a religious building, or any building, for that matter, with a cross on the top of a steeple or tower or dome that was not Christian.

All I was suggesting is that we try to avoid using direct iconography of any given religion from the real world in this non-real fantasy realm. And not because they are bad icons, but because I think we can be more creative than that as a community. But if people want to build churches in Historica with crosses on top and call them the Church of St. Ignatius, run by Father Loyola, they can. Or call it the Temple of the Equally Proportional Cross, or whatever. There is room for it here, if that is what the builder wants to build.

Ah, gotchya. I think your position is reasonable. I'm fine with the Aslanic temples too because I think it satisfies the needs of differentiating the fiction.

38 minutes ago, Mike S said:

I find it illogical to identify symbols in a fantasy world as relating to the real world. When I see a cross, it doesn’t make me think of Christianity but rather merely a shape. If one begins to try to eradicate certain symbols from an environment, it won’t be long before all symbols will be banned because they may have real life religious symbolism. I can guarantee you that no matter what symbol you use, I will be able to in some way connect it to some real life religion. In fact the other day I had a “Christian” tell me that the shirt I was wearing was demonic because it was a pagan symbol. I simply was flabbergasted as it is merely a company’s logo I represent. Sun warrior is the company if you want to look it up. So please guys don’t go down the path of banning certain symbols because they represent something to you but rather empower yourself and imagine what alternatives the symbols could represent. I’m certain I’ve seen many crosses in D and D styled games and it never made me think there were Christians in the game. I think what is absurd is if you take a symbol in a totally other context and bring your own context to it. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of fantasy.

No one is talking about banning symbols, calm down. It's just about the logic, if you like, of including familiar religious symbols in a fictional fantasy universe. Nothing you're saying changes that but you're potentially putting words in everyone's mouths which I don't think is what you want? That said, there's an interesting point to make with the "demonic shirt" in that there are symbols of all kinds that we can disagree on (and do) and then there's symbols that change meaning over time. None of that changes the fact that you wouldn't find anyone who didn't associate the cross with Christianity excluding really outside cases like amnesia, cultural isolation, etc. There's a distinction here you're glossing over to make a pretty obstinate point. Ultimately, these conversations are interesting because here we are, coming to a consensus (or trying to) about what these symbols should mean in the context of GoH or any fantasy game.

I will argue that most fantasy worlds don't include obvious religious symbols from the real world. Catch-all worlds like D&D settings are a different story. You don't see Christian symbols and imagery in the worlds of major fantasy works including Tolkien. This is for the integrity of the world-building, which most people call "immersion".

At the end of the day, though, because we aren't talking about banning or imposing rules on people (seriously, where did you even get that idea :P), this is all going to come down to opinions and what people want to do with their own lore. If someone agrees with Henjin, Stad, and I, they may create a "fantasy religion". If not, they might transplant real-world religious symbols just like we do with architecture, weaponry, etc. To me, that's fine just not my personal preference. The whole reason I inquired was because I suspect this issue might have been decided. I'm getting the impression that GoH has no firm policy and it's just up to the individual builders to do what they want... which is fine. I guess I skew toward a communal approach, though, and wanted to make sure that anything I create for Varlyrio has a certain degree of approval since it's a new Guild and all.

Edited August 22, 2018 by mccoyed

[Mike S]

8 minutes ago, mccoyed said:

Good points.

Ah, gotchya. I think your position is reasonable. I'm fine with the Aslanic temples too because I think it satisfies the needs of differentiating the fiction.

No one is talking about banning symbols, calm down. It's just about the logic, if you like, of including familiar religious symbols in a fictional fantasy universe. Nothing you're saying changes that but you're certainly putting words in everyone's mouths potentially which I don't think is what you want? That said, there's an interesting point to make with the "demonic shirt" in that there are symbols of all kinds that we can disagree on (and do) and then there's symbols that change meaning over time. None of that changes the fact that you wouldn't find anyone who didn't associate the cross with Christianity excluding really outside cases like amnesia, cultural isolation, etc. There's a distinction here you're glossing over to make a pretty obstinate point. But these conversations are interesting because here we are, coming to a consensus (or trying to) about what these symbols should mean in the context of GoH or any fantasy game.

I will argue that most fantasy worlds don't include obvious religious symbols from the real world. Catch-all worlds like D&D settings are a different story. You don't see Christian symbols and imagery in the worlds of major fantasy works including Tolkien. This is for the integrity of the world-building, which most people call "immersion".

At the end of the day, though, because we aren't talking about banning or imposing rules on people (seriously, where did you even get that idea :P), this is all going to come down to opinions and what people want to do with their own lore. If someone agrees with Henjin, Stad, and I, they may create a "fantasy religion". If not, they might transplant real-world religious symbols just like we do with architecture, weaponry, etc. To me, that's fine just not my personal preference.

Perhaps I misread but it did seem Henjin came down pretty hard on Narbilu’s use of a cross and suggested that the symbol did not belong in GoH universe. Personally I don’t care if the cross is used or not used. I just find it illogical to bring real world meanings to a fantasy world where symbols have the opportunity to develop entire new meanings.

[mccoyed]

9 minutes ago, Mike S said:

Perhaps I misread but it did seem Henjin came down pretty hard on Narbilu’s use of a cross and suggested that the symbol did not belong in GoH universe. Personally I don’t care if the cross is used or not used. I just find it illogical to bring real world meanings to a fantasy world where symbols have the opportunity to develop entire new meanings.

Ah, I see. Fair enough, but he did clarify in a post above these ones. Anyways we all have our own opinions about this and it's all good, just depends on what Narbilu decides makes sense for him.

Edited August 22, 2018 by mccoyed

[Henjin_Quilones]

@Mike S Is it the protein powder and raw foods company? I'd be flabbergasted too, honestly. Seems utterly benign to me.

No one is banning anything. I am sorry if any of my posts made it seem that way. @mccoyed put it pretty well in his last post, I think. It is really up to each builder what he or she wants to build in his or her own section of Historica, and no symbol or style is strictly off-limits (except insofar as Eurobricks says in the guidelines: "For the same reason, topics (or avatars and other expressions) about religion or politics are not welcome on Eurobricks", but I don't think what we are discussing quite falls under that umbrella). I do think that finding a way to weave whatever religious iconography any of us end up using into a broader lore is a good idea in a shared-world RBG, however, and explaining things with some back story helps all of that. If you (or anyone) do want to build a church topped by a steeple and cross, it might be nice to explain to those of us who are confused by the imagery what the cross represents to the people who attend that church, since it must be important to them to put it way up at the top of the building, or right at the front where everyone faces. It allows you to use whatever symbols you want, and it allows the rest of us to understand what the symbols mean in this particular fantasy context.  

I questioned Narbilu's use of the cross simply because it was so obviously Catholic imagery, down to being on St. Joseph's Church (and inside, too, made of gold and placed behind an altar) without any sort of explanation as to why Varlyrians would use such symbols in their churches, being as they were devoted to the worship of many different gods. I wanted more lore to explain the inclusion, or lacking that, to advocate for the substitution of them for some other symbol. It just seemed too easy for a Venice-inspired guild to fall into the habit of adopting the church styles of Venice wholesale, too, without trying to integrate it more fully into the lore of a new realm. 

[mccoyed]

4 minutes ago, Henjin_Quilones said:

@Mike S Is it the protein powder and raw foods company? I'd be flabbergasted too, honestly. Seems utterly benign to me.

No one is banning anything. I am sorry if any of my posts made it seem that way. @mccoyed put it pretty well in his last post, I think. It is really up to each builder what he or she wants to build in his or her own section of Historica, and no symbol or style is strictly off-limits (except insofar as Eurobricks says in the guidelines: "For the same reason, topics (or avatars and other expressions) about religion or politics are not welcome on Eurobricks", but I don't think what we are discussing quite falls under that umbrella). I do think that finding a way to weave whatever religious iconography any of us end up using into a broader lore is a good idea in a shared-world RBG, however, and explaining things with some back story helps all of that. If you (or anyone) do want to build a church topped by a steeple and cross, it might be nice to explain to those of us who are confused by the imagery what the cross represents to the people who attend that church, since it must be important to them to put it way up at the top of the building, or right at the front where everyone faces. It allows you to use whatever symbols you want, and it allows the rest of us to understand what the symbols mean in this particular fantasy context.  

I questioned Narbilu's use of the cross simply because it was so obviously Catholic imagery, down to being on St. Joseph's Church (and inside, too, made of gold and placed behind an altar) without any sort of explanation as to why Varlyrians would use such symbols in their churches, being as they were devoted to the worship of many different gods. I wanted more lore to explain the inclusion, or lacking that, to advocate for the substitution of them for some other symbol. It just seemed too easy for a Venice-inspired guild to fall into the habit of adopting the church styles of Venice wholesale, too, without trying to integrate it more fully into the lore of a new realm. 

Honestly, EB doesn't enforce that guideline. A large number of people use Biblical quotes in their signatures, which should fall under that umbrella. Just saying.

Some of this stuff overlaps into what "good world-building" looks like, too, and I think your questions/points are particularly helpful in getting people to think through their creations more generally. Even beyond the question of religious faiths in Historica.

[Mike S]

4 minutes ago, Henjin_Quilones said:

@Mike S Is it the protein powder and raw foods company? 

Yes the protein powder company. But I think it totally illustrates the danger of overthinking symbolism.

I do understand where you are coming from and agree about coming up with original designs. However I think that real world religions will inevitably often be referenced in some way when creating fictional ones and that I do not think is necessarily a bad thing. The Aslanic Order is based in some ways on medieval Catholicism but yet I tried to give it its own symbols and theology which I tried to leave as ambiguous as possible. As in any religion, what one Historican in the Aslanic faith believes may actually oppose a belief of another member of the same faith. I just hope people are open minded enough not to associate the Aslanic Order literally as 100% Narnian nor attribute my fictional activities as a reflection of my real world beliefs. Fantasy is fiction and if I ever do include a cross in a build, it being an easy shape to replicate in Lego is not meant as a representation of the the real world. This is also not an advertisement for the Aslanic Order which after the Kaliphlin civil war is now reduced to a fractured entity run by individuals in the cities where temples still remain. I actually really have no plans to continue the Aslanic Order story line any further.

[Grover]

Our Lady of Perpetual Motion.

Symbol:

Also, for those coming up with their own religions, please, for all of our sakes, do not use the iconography of Priapus.

[mccoyed]

Quote

Also, for those coming up with their own religions, please, for all of our sakes, do not use the iconography of Priapus

Challenge accepted.

[narbilu]

And behold.... the Temple of Daïnna, an Avalonian demi-God Huntress  with no specific symbols other than arrows and statues

[Rogue Angel]

First off, please note that nothing below is referencing anything specific in the conversations above, but the conversation got complicated quickly, and triggered this post to state why we have tried to generally avoid any major religion references and religious discussions in GoH. 

It is reasonable to think there would be religions throughout Historica, as religions have been very prevalent in history, fantasy and literature.  Many builders, like myself, draw from real world architecture and concepts when building, so it is reasonable to expect that when builders incorporate religion, similarities to actual religions will crop up.  Given that Religion is a topic that people have varying opinions and beliefs about, it is very easy for different people to have different interpretations about builds and stories, regardless of what the original builder intended.  When you start having in-depth discussions about the religious aspects of builds, people will read different things into comments, or post things saying one thing, that can easily be interpreted another way.  

Things get complicated very quickly when talking religion, so the following general guidelines apply:

1. Religion and religious symbols can be incorporated into builds, but please try to build within the fantasy of Historica, not to extend an existing religion into Historica (which has not been an issue in GoH thus far).  Cathedrals, Mosques, Temples, Churches, Priest, Monks, Crosses, Saints, Prophets - all fine, just keep it within the context of Historica.  Religion was a driver behind a lot of the buildings, styles and symbols historically, and builders should continue to incorporate these elements into their builds as they see fit.

2. Religion will never play a major role in major storylines or Challenges in GoH.  It can and has played a major role in the builds and storylines of GoH builders, and that is just fine, and has led to some great results.

3. There will never be "Guild Religions" or a "Historica Religion", etc.  What has worked well is when a builder establishes a religion or church, and then invites other builders to incorporate it into their own communities and builds, but the religion still 'belongs' to one builder. 

4. As always, the goal of GoH is to provide a welcoming, open and positive environment for builders to construct their own fantasy world and builds, and our rules and guidelines are in place to promote this at all times.

I myself have built a temple, a shrine, and a chapel in Historica thus far, and will continue to incorporate religion into my builds as they fit into my realms. 

[narbilu]

1 hour ago, Rogue Angel said:

following general guidelines apply:

Very well said, maybe an idea to post this in the new members thread

[mccoyed]

I agree with Narbilu. This clarification is sensible, along the lines of what I've picked up so far, and would be SUPER useful for new members.

On 8/21/2018 at 11:33 PM, narbilu said:

And behold.... the Temple of Daïnna, an Avalonian demi-God Huntress  with no specific symbols other than arrows and statues

Lookin' good!

[Spader]

Finally got a small build to introduce my character. First real episode/build should happen soon enough. 

My character is Orsen Waythe, and his home town is called Dragorland.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Home.

The smell of salt water brought a strange peace to me. The sound, too, was one of peace. It was one I had not heard in years. But I was back in Varlyrio, and this time I would not allow myself a quiet exile. The Aarinstahrr was dead, and I was here to take his place

“Raxus Orsen Waythe?”

“Indeed.”

“You have returned.”

“It is time enough I take back what was mine."

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Andrew Spader
Making the photo work

[mccoyed]

Great intro, Andrew.

Forgot to post this latest, actually in Varlyrio, build for me:
 

 

[Lord Buckethead]

Well I must apologise, I missed the part about not using the head of our family as our sig-fig and so unfortunately I don't have a vignette of him. I will however post his backstory and pledge my allegiance now.

____________________

Giuseppe Fazia is the heir to the Fazia family, a family renowned in Varlyrio for being at the centre of a web of mercenaries and bounty hunters. 

While Giuseppe's family is mainly focused on domestic affairs, ministerial roles and such, he is much more interested in expanding the family business to the rest of Historica. 

Despite their trade, the Fazia's aren't exactly known for their combat prowess, however unlike his family Giuseppe has no qualms getting his hands dirty and while not quite a master, is an adept swordsman.

[Henjin_Quilones]

@Lord Buckethead, welcome to the Guilds! While you did not choose the best Guild of all, we are still happy to have you. 

And not having your sigfig be the head of the family is for his (or her) own safety. Heads of families in Varlyrio apparently have a really bad habit of dying of various diseases, like dagger-in-the-backpox, or sometimes poisonitis. 

[mccoyed]

Presented, for the approval of the elite families of Varlyrio...

 

[TitusV]

Wow, seems like I have missed quite the discussion here! Very intresting to read up on everyone's opinion here, some very good points  

Also, welcome to the new members!

[narbilu]

Kashgar is growing, three more builds added this weekend:

HSS Kashgar

[x105Black]

On 8/23/2018 at 1:08 AM, narbilu said:

Very well said, maybe an idea to post this in the new members thread

Indeed.  This is thorough.  There's also this bit in the New Member Guide that I found interesting:

"Can I join Valyrio? No, not at this moment. That guild is available for anyone to build in, but it does not have an open membership."

I imagine an update is probably already in the works.

So I have commented on as many Varlyrian builds as I could find, and I think it's important for us to be able to support each other in this way.  That said, I wonder if perhaps there could be a thread that acts as an index of Varlyrian builds / threads.  Something without as much conversation, just a place for people like myself to look and see if I have missed anything while away from my keyboard.  It would also help to act as a compendium of Varlyrian building styles and techniques.

Thoughts?

[mccoyed]

I don't know if we need a thread. I think Narbilu or Rogue could and should index all the Varlyrio builds on the front page of this thread, though. I think that may be the plan already?

Anyway, here's my latest:

 

 

[Basiliscus]

I think editing the first post with the index of builds would make some sense. That way this thread is a one stop shop for all your Varlyrian needs!

[x105Black]

Those are good ideas, guys!

[narbilu]

On 9/1/2018 at 12:25 AM, mccoyed said:

I think Narbilu or Rogue

Garm and Rogue are the ones leading this thread...

[mccoyed]

Ah okay so Garm or Rogue then! :P