Rogue Angel

Book III - Varlyrio: Guild sign-up and Discussion

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1 hour ago, TitusV said:

Just wanting to say that I'm a huge fan of the Varlyrian family scheming mechanics, it almost adds a next dimension to the guild :thumbup:

Agreed, Varlyrio is pretty cool. I may have to have my character visit if I have extra time.

47 minutes ago, The Maestro said:

Why Titus, maybe thats why we are the best guild? You Avalonians are so civil, Political turmoil is where its at!

Hmmm, that's a quick change of thought. ;) Turmoil is chaotic, civil is peaceful. :P

Edited by TheLordOfBricks

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Avalonians are dainty and Civil, Kaliphlinites are diplomatic and long-winded (like their deserts), Nocturnals are evil and secretive, Mitgardians are brusk and uncouth, and Varlyrians are direct and determined (at least the Varlyrians that matter)

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10 hours ago, Rogue Angel said:

Avalonians are dainty and Civil, Kaliphlinites are diplomatic and long-winded (like their deserts), Nocturnals are evil and secretive, Mitgardians are brusk and uncouth, and Varlyrians are direct and determined (at least the Varlyrians that matter)

Where's the 'direct' part in backstabbing and plotting exactly? Because I fear I'me overlooking something now... :wink: 

14 hours ago, The Maestro said:

Why Titus, maybe thats why we are the best guild? You Avalonians are so civil, Political turmoil is where its at!

Maybe we're so civil because the other guilds need something to look up to and move towards to? I'm sure Varlyrio will understand in a decade or two :tongue: 

6 hours ago, mccoyed said:

Oh look, the trash talk is back.

Has it ever been gone than? :grin: 

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2 hours ago, Rogue Angel said:

Backstabbing and plotting is catalogued under "determined"

Ah, okay, didn't now that. My sincere apologies in case I have offended any Varlyrians - please don't kill Arthur in his sleep (or at least not before I have told you a part of his story) :grin: A good old duel, on the other hand... ( @Garmadon I've got a throwback here :wink: )

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10 minutes ago, TitusV said:

A good old duel, on the other hand... ( @Garmadon I've got a throwback here :wink: )

:laugh: :excited: More like a throw-forward, I'm afraid! :grin:  I've still got some work to do on that storyline (but we totally will get there someday! :pir-sweet: :pir-grin:  You might even have time to build some for it by the time I get around to it!  #WhatcomesofbeingintoomanyRPGs, hahaha!)

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2 hours ago, Garmadon said:

:laugh: :excited: More like a throw-forward, I'm afraid! :grin:  I've still got some work to do on that storyline (but we totally will get there someday! :pir-sweet: :pir-grin:  You might even have time to build some for it by the time I get around to it!  #WhatcomesofbeingintoomanyRPGs, hahaha!)

One day, we will! #Iknowwhatyouretalkingaboutsir :laugh: 

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Allow me to participate as well...

Vismund de Rabianací

Vismund de Rabianací


Vismund is a wealthy man, the only heir of a long, faded line of nobles in Varlyrio known as the de Rabianací family.  Along with his associates, he deals in gemstones, precious metals, and antiquities, selling his luxury goods to the most affluent Varlyrian Lords.  Though he is of noble heritage, he is fairly unknown in the upper crust of society outside of his business.  He studied abroad, though nobody can say where with any certainty, despite the many rumors.  As such, Vismund was not present at the various social functions of Varlyrio, and is considered to be a bit of an enigmatic outsider.

He returned home to Varlyrio after the dust began to settle on the battlefields of recent war, taking control of the vast family fortune and quickly turning it into a lucrative business.  He has piqued the curiosity of many, but prefers a private life and does not divulge much of his past.  His disciples are also tight-lipped, about Vismund, about themselves, and about the business.  They transport the goods by sea in the dead of night, cloaked in darkness.  They are his family, and his closest confidants.


(Hopefully this will satisfy Guild Challenge 1A.)

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Welcome to the GoH, x105Black!  I'm excited to see your builds and to see where the story of Vismund goes!

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Welcome to Varlyrio, @x105Black, great to have you!  And welcome to all our other new members as well! :classic:  (I suppose we really are all new here, though! :grin:)

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So fellow Varlyrians...

I have been thinking about religion in Varlyrio and the idea of introducing a new religion to Historica that is popular in Varlyrio. What is the policy on that for GoH/Book 3? Can I just go ahead and the normal rule of "if people like it, it'll catch on" will apply? Happy to discuss this with our Guild leaders if necessary. I just want to make sure I'm operating within parameters if I go adding this stuff to builds.

Here's the pitch, though. Please tell me what you think about:

Quote

In Varlyrio, there's a popular church built around Sana (Saint) Argenta (Ar-jen-ta) of the Sword and Cup. She's a legendary figure that was deified after her death. She was a warrior and general who fought a war in Varlyrio that is barely remembered save for some key events. During her campaign, she tricked an enemy force into crossing a desert to reach her own army. When they finally arrived, many lost and the rest in a terrible state of thirst and exhaustion, she famously put down her sword and raised a cup of water to comfort her enemies. She was then murdered by some of her own officers for giving aid to the enemy (kind of a Jon Snow thing). The story touched the hearts of many people, though, and was an inspiration of mercy, justice and moral righteousness even in the context of battle (so chivalry sort of) to some Varlyrians. After some years of the story passing around and gaining stature and myth (like that she conjured the water from nothing), a faith and church was built up around her. It was suppressed when Varlyrio was serving the Black Hand, but the rise of Queen Ylspeth (who some say is Sana Argenta reborn) has made Varlyrians free to worship her again.

Some additional lore ideas:

-One of the articles of worship is charity: going out in the streets and offering water to the thirsty.
-Statues of Sana Argenta (a gray/silver lady holding a sword and a cup) have sprung up on plinths, sometimes replacing old statues of Baiamontes that were erected during their reign.
-Sana Argenta is a patroness of chivalry, honor, charity, justice, and war... so orders of knights built around her would be appropriate and something I'm tinkering with. Anyone should feel free to create orders of Sana Argenta if they want, and if this is adopted into Varlyrian lore.
-Water is a big motif, symbolizing the merciful side where the sword symbolizes war (but usually just, righteous causes).
-Because of the water thing, people like to build statues or churches/shrines to Sana Argenta near water, usually that means the ocean.

 

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7 minutes ago, mccoyed said:


I have been thinking about religion in Varlyrio and the idea of introducing a new religion to Historica that is popular in Varlyrio. What is the policy on that for GoH/Book 3? Can I just go ahead and the normal rule of "if people like it, it'll catch on" will apply? Happy to discuss this with our Guild leaders if necessary. I just want to make sure I'm operating within parameters if I go adding this stuff to builds.

Here's the pitch, though. Please tell me what you think about:

Hey MC,

I love it, the church I build has to get a few modifications, so this is a welcome idea.

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Just now, narbilu said:

Hey MC,

I love it, the church I build has to get a few modifications, so this is a welcome idea.

Hilariously, the very next thread I opened after posting that was your St. Joseph church! I had no idea we had such similar ideas. :P

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On 8/19/2018 at 12:07 PM, Grover said:

Welcome to the GoH, x105Black!  I'm excited to see your builds and to see where the story of Vismund goes!

Thank you, I'm looking forward to telling more of his story myself!

2 hours ago, Garmadon said:

Welcome to Varlyrio, @x105Black, great to have you!  And welcome to all our other new members as well! :classic:  (I suppose we really are all new here, though! :grin:)

Thanks, it's great to be here!

35 minutes ago, mccoyed said:

So fellow Varlyrians...

I have been thinking about religion in Varlyrio and the idea of introducing a new religion to Historica that is popular in Varlyrio. What is the policy on that for GoH/Book 3?

I love the idea of playing around with different faiths and religions in the area.  Yours sounds interesting.  I may choose to do something similar in the future.

Edited by x105Black

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For religions in Historica, I think there are some important guidelines to follow. First, we should make sure we are not bringing real world religion into it, and that involves names and symbols, as well as the descriptions of the rites themselves. For example, we should not be using the terms "mosque" and "synagogue", since they are so connected to particular religions, and I would argue even the term "church" is too connected to Christianity to be used without conveying that idea. "Temple" is the better term here, I think, since it describes any building for worship, from ancient Greece, Israel, Tibet, or Japan, to name a few. It is more universal and not connected with any particular religious practice like the other terms. Also, crosses should probably be avoided in Historican religious iconography as being too Christian. The term "saint" is more ambiguous, as it could just refer to a holy person, but especially when connected to the name of a church, it recalls Christian church-naming conventions a bit too closely. 

That said, there is a tremendous amount of room for creativity here. Everyone is worshiping something; but what do your people worship? Trees? The Sun? Water, Air, Earth, Fire? A spirit of some kind? The Man Upstairs? The Red Brick? Deified ancestors? There are so many options out there, some generically real world (deified anthropomorphic natural phenomena, e.g. thunder like Zeus or Thor, are cross-cultural, after all) and others specific to LEGO ABS bricks. Symbols of animals or plants or earthy things, or celestial things, should all be usable, as are geometric shapes. LEGO has made lots of interesting parts that could be part of a shrine in some way. For example, if blacksmiths have a patron god, perhaps his symbol is a hammer, and a large hammer hangs over his temples, and the temple itself is shaped like a hammer; and LEGO has graciously made Mjolnir for the Marvel Superheroes sets.

Real-world architectural styles I think are fair game for copying, so if someone wants to make St. Mark's Cathedral from Venice here in Varlyrio, I hope they do; I just hope they don't call it St. Mark's Cathedral and keep crosses on it, since that would belong in a different sub-forum than the Guilds of Historica (perhaps Architecture). Similarly the Haggia Sophia, or Angkor Wat, or any famous (or not) religious structure. But as we copy, consider some things. If your temple has an altar, what gets sacrificed on it? Don't include things if they are not practical to the religion being practiced. Do the people sit while they worship? If not, why have chairs or pews or benches? What do the architectural details convey? Are books read, or written exhortations given? If not, why have a lectern or podium in the front? Why burn candles, or incense, or torches? All of these things can be included, as long as you know the why of it for your settlements' religious practices. 

 

All this is to say that I like the idea of various religions spreading around Historica, having an origin somewhere, so if @mccoyed wants to have the cult of Sana Argenta of the Sword and Cup spread, that should be fine. Why not, after all? There were countless Aslanic temples across Historica earlier, so if builders like this new idea they should be able to include the cult if they please. And if no one but one city in Varlyrio likes it, it will eventually die out, not unlike countless religions throughout history. 

And sorry for the long post... I teach theology at a religiously-affiliated high school, so I think about things like this often...

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@Henjin_Quilones Don't apologize for the length! I'm a teacher too and find this stuff fascinating (all religions and mythologies really... though I'm not a Christian). I'm going to selectively quote some stuff I want to comment on:

Quote

There were countless Aslanic temples across Historica earlier, so if builders like this new idea they should be able to include the cult if they please.

For what it's worth, the Aslanic religion is already a fantasy nod to Christianity (C.S. Lewis's books are fairly direct Christian allegories). I think in the earlier days this must have been a nod from Christian GoHers and it's a fairly good one given that Narnia is a fantasy series and GoH is a fantasy world. :P

Quote

For example, we should not be using the terms "mosque" and "synagogue", since they are so connected to particular religions, and I would argue even the term "church" is too connected to Christianity to be used without conveying that idea. "Temple" is the better term here, I think, since it describes any building for worship, from ancient Greece, Israel, Tibet, or Japan, to name a few. It is more universal and not connected with any particular religious practice like the other terms.

I agree. I think "shrine" can also work well as a general term for "place of worship". Shrines usually denote a smaller, more localized special area though.

Quote

The term "saint" is more ambiguous, as it could just refer to a holy person, but especially when connected to the name of a church, it recalls Christian church-naming conventions a bit too closely. 

I think "Sana" works as a compromise in terms. Deifying "real people" post-mortem, let alone living people, is/was a common human practice. That said, I don't mind changing "Church of Sana Argenta" to "Temple of Sana Argenta" or something like that. Maybe I'll do a build to fully introduce this "new" (more like rediscovered) faith and its lore to GoH.

Quote

All this is to say that I like the idea of various religions spreading around Historica, having an origin somewhere, so if @mccoyed wants to have the cult of Sana Argenta of the Sword and Cup spread, that should be fine.

I hope the lore I offered was sufficient to answer to some of the questions you're raising, which are all good world-building questions. I've been playing RPGs, D&D and reading fantasy almost my whole life and world-building is a big part of the fun in all that so I'm always happy to think about and create more detail.

Edited by mccoyed

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54 minutes ago, Henjin_Quilones said:

For religions in Historica, I think there are some important guidelines to follow. First, we should make sure we are not bringing real world religion into it, and that involves names and symbols, as well as the descriptions of the rites themselves. For example, we should not be using the terms "mosque" and "synagogue", since they are so connected to particular religions, and I would argue even the term "church" is too connected to Christianity to be used without conveying that idea. "Temple" is the better term here, I think, since it describes any building for worship, from ancient Greece, Israel, Tibet, or Japan, to name a few. It is more universal and not connected with any particular religious practice like the other terms. Also, crosses should probably be avoided in Historican religious iconography as being too Christian. The term "saint" is more ambiguous, as it could just refer to a holy person, but especially when connected to the name of a church, it recalls Christian church-naming conventions a bit too closely. 

That said, there is a tremendous amount of room for creativity here. Everyone is worshiping something; but what do your people worship? Trees? The Sun? Water, Air, Earth, Fire? A spirit of some kind? The Man Upstairs? The Red Brick? Deified ancestors? There are so many options out there, some generically real world (deified anthropomorphic natural phenomena, e.g. thunder like Zeus or Thor, are cross-cultural, after all) and others specific to LEGO ABS bricks. Symbols of animals or plants or earthy things, or celestial things, should all be usable, as are geometric shapes. LEGO has made lots of interesting parts that could be part of a shrine in some way. For example, if blacksmiths have a patron god, perhaps his symbol is a hammer, and a large hammer hangs over his temples, and the temple itself is shaped like a hammer; and LEGO has graciously made Mjolnir for the Marvel Superheroes sets.

Real-world architectural styles I think are fair game for copying, so if someone wants to make St. Mark's Cathedral from Venice here in Varlyrio, I hope they do; I just hope they don't call it St. Mark's Cathedral and keep crosses on it, since that would belong in a different sub-forum than the Guilds of Historica (perhaps Architecture). Similarly the Haggia Sophia, or Angkor Wat, or any famous (or not) religious structure. But as we copy, consider some things. If your temple has an altar, what gets sacrificed on it? Don't include things if they are not practical to the religion being practiced. Do the people sit while they worship? If not, why have chairs or pews or benches? What do the architectural details convey? Are books read, or written exhortations given? If not, why have a lectern or podium in the front? Why burn candles, or incense, or torches? All of these things can be included, as long as you know the why of it for your settlements' religious practices. 

I personally think you may be reading to much into the symbols. A culture without a history of crucification will have a totally different context/perspective for a cross than one with it. For example the cross which is of equal height and width could also be a symbol for perfection or total equality. A symbol by no means has any other meaning than that to which you yourself give to it.

Edited by Mike S

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1 hour ago, Henjin_Quilones said:

For religions in Historica, I think there are some important guidelines to follow. First, we should make sure we are not bringing real world religion into it, and that involves names and symbols, as well as the descriptions of the rites themselves. For example, we should not be using the terms "mosque" and "synagogue", since they are so connected to particular religions, and I would argue even the term "church" is too connected to Christianity to be used without conveying that idea. "Temple" is the better term here, I think, since it describes any building for worship, from ancient Greece, Israel, Tibet, or Japan, to name a few. It is more universal and not connected with any particular religious practice like the other terms. Also, crosses should probably be avoided in Historican religious iconography as being too Christian. The term "saint" is more ambiguous, as it could just refer to a holy person, but especially when connected to the name of a church, it recalls Christian church-naming conventions a bit too closely. 

That said, there is a tremendous amount of room for creativity here. Everyone is worshiping something; but what do your people worship? Trees? The Sun? Water, Air, Earth, Fire? A spirit of some kind? The Man Upstairs? The Red Brick? Deified ancestors? There are so many options out there, some generically real world (deified anthropomorphic natural phenomena, e.g. thunder like Zeus or Thor, are cross-cultural, after all) and others specific to LEGO ABS bricks. Symbols of animals or plants or earthy things, or celestial things, should all be usable, as are geometric shapes. LEGO has made lots of interesting parts that could be part of a shrine in some way. For example, if blacksmiths have a patron god, perhaps his symbol is a hammer, and a large hammer hangs over his temples, and the temple itself is shaped like a hammer; and LEGO has graciously made Mjolnir for the Marvel Superheroes sets.

Real-world architectural styles I think are fair game for copying, so if someone wants to make St. Mark's Cathedral from Venice here in Varlyrio, I hope they do; I just hope they don't call it St. Mark's Cathedral and keep crosses on it, since that would belong in a different sub-forum than the Guilds of Historica (perhaps Architecture). Similarly the Haggia Sophia, or Angkor Wat, or any famous (or not) religious structure. But as we copy, consider some things. If your temple has an altar, what gets sacrificed on it? Don't include things if they are not practical to the religion being practiced. Do the people sit while they worship? If not, why have chairs or pews or benches? What do the architectural details convey? Are books read, or written exhortations given? If not, why have a lectern or podium in the front? Why burn candles, or incense, or torches? All of these things can be included, as long as you know the why of it for your settlements' religious practices. 

 

All this is to say that I like the idea of various religions spreading around Historica, having an origin somewhere, so if @mccoyed wants to have the cult of Sana Argenta of the Sword and Cup spread, that should be fine. Why not, after all? There were countless Aslanic temples across Historica earlier, so if builders like this new idea they should be able to include the cult if they please. And if no one but one city in Varlyrio likes it, it will eventually die out, not unlike countless religions throughout history. 

And sorry for the long post... I teach theology at a religiously-affiliated high school, so I think about things like this often...

Thank you for this post!  I see things much the same way, and I'm happy to know that my views fit into GOH.

I think it's a great idea to stay away from typical religious symbols and such from the real world.  This is a fantasy world, and as such these real world religions feel weird and out of place.

I like that you're coming at it from a background of theology as well.  These things are very interesting, and it's fun to think about how religions and such would spring up in a fantasy setting.

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2 hours ago, Mike S said:

I personally think you may be reading to much into the symbols. A culture without a history of crucification will have a totally different context/perspective for a cross than one with it. For example the cross which is of equal height and width could also be a symbol for perfection or total equality. A symbol by no means has any other meaning than that to which you yourself give to it.

Well, this is a common argument that people make about all kinds of things and it has a pretty big flaw. That is, the idea that symbols, words, etc have "no meaning than that which you yourself give it". Isn't it more accurate to say that symbols have a "common" meaning that is basically agreed upon by people? If we take words as an example, I could be writing in word salad right now and I would not be communicating with you even though I could defend it by saying something similar to what you're saying here. Symbols connect to this because they are part of communication: we use symbols to communicate various meanings. Those meanings aren't thrust into our brains fully-formed... we acquire them by communicating with others directly (ex. talking) or indirectly (ex. seeing cultural artifacts like signs, media, etc). So there's a context that contributes to meaning and while we can impose limits on real-world contexts, especially in fiction, we can't really ever escape them. Nor should we, because they are how we construct a world we can agree has certain qualities or is even there at all. :P

In other words, you're right about other meanings a cross could have if we all agreed on it... which is maybe why Henjin and others want to talk about this now?

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2 hours ago, Mike S said:

A culture without a history of crucification will have a totally different context/perspective for a cross than one with it. 

Not to gang up, but I think this is an important point to the whole conversation, and one which mccoyed has touched upon.  Without a deep backstory to the symbol within the fictional faith group, it is very difficult for the standard viewer to understand why a Latin cross, crescent moon, six-pointed star, eight-spoked wheel, etc. would show up repeatedly in a build (especially when paired with architectural forms inspired by real-world regions where that particular symbol is common).  What is it doing there if it's not analogous to a real-world faith?  Why is it a part of this fictional religion?  What does it symbolize here? 

I don't think anyone's saying that certain symbols can't be used, but they need to be given a deep and logical context within this shared fiction, partly for us to distance them from real-world ideologies, but even more for the sake of good storytelling in a rich fantasy world.

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@mccoyed I liked your lore. I was thinking that your way of phrasing things was good for the context of Historica; I was posing the questions to help others figure out what they might want to do for themselves, rather than defaulting to real-world symbols and traditions. The Aslanic temples were perfectly fine by me, even if a few layers down they are based on Christianity. I have nothing against Christian references, being Christian myself, as long as in-game they make sense. 

@The Stad Exactly. 

@Mike S To say that a cross on top of a church in Historica has no inherent Christian meaning is just patently absurd. It is a deliberate homage or reference to common Christian iconography, even if yes, the geometric shape of a cross could in fact have other meanings for other people in other contexts. However, I have never seen a picture of a religious building, or any building, for that matter, with a cross on the top of a steeple or tower or dome that was not Christian.

All I was suggesting is that we try to avoid using direct iconography of any given religion from the real world in this non-real fantasy realm. And not because they are bad icons, but because I think we can be more creative than that as a community. But if people want to build churches in Historica with crosses on top and call them the Church of St. Ignatius, run by Father Loyola, they can. Or call it the Temple of the Equally Proportional Cross, or whatever. There is room for it here, if that is what the builder wants to build.

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24 minutes ago, mccoyed said:

Well, this is a common argument that people make about all kinds of things and it has a pretty big flaw. That is, the idea that symbols, words, etc have "no meaning than that which you yourself give it". Isn't it more accurate to say that symbols have a "common" meaning that is basically agreed upon by people? If we take words as an example, I could be writing in word salad right now and I would not be communicating with you even though I could defend it by saying something similar to what you're saying here. Symbols connect to this because they are part of communication: we use symbols to communicate various meanings. Those meanings aren't thrust into our brains fully-formed... we acquire them by communicating with others directly (ex. talking) or indirectly (ex. seeing cultural artifacts like signs, media, etc). So there's a context that contributes to meaning and while we can impose limits on real-world contexts, especially in fiction, we can't really ever escape them. Nor should we, because they are how we construct a world we can agree has certain qualities or is even there at all. :P

In other words, you're right about other meanings a cross could have if we all agreed on it... which is maybe why Henjin and others want to talk about this now?

I find it illogical to identify symbols in a fantasy world as relating to the real world. When I see a cross, it doesn’t make me think of Christianity but rather merely a shape. If one begins to try to eradicate certain symbols from an environment, it won’t be long before all symbols will be banned because they may have real life religious symbolism. I can guarantee you that no matter what symbol you use, I will be able to in some way connect it to some real life religion. In fact the other day I had a “Christian” tell me that the shirt I was wearing was demonic because it was a pagan symbol. I simply was flabbergasted as it is merely a company’s logo I represent. Sun warrior is the company if you want to look it up. So please guys don’t go down the path of banning certain symbols because they represent something to you but rather empower yourself and imagine what alternatives the symbols could represent. I’m certain I’ve seen many crosses in D and D styled games and it never made me think there were Christians in the game. I think what is absurd is if you take a symbol in a totally other context and bring your own context to it. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of fantasy.

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