Discussion Etiquette

[Bublehead]

Everyone has an opinion. And this is the beginning of the problem.

I don’t mind differing opinions, what I do mind is the militant defense of one’s opinions.  Then we get the back and forth as each side tries to lob bigger and bigger quote bombs at each other, and we get a ring side seat to the carnage...  It a good thing TLG and Disney have a business agreement and License for Star Wars intellectual property seeing as how much we try and turn each other from the light side to the dark side of the force every day (or vice versa.) 

We get it people, you are passionate about your hobbies and you have a natural desire to defend your positions, but do you have to bring us all along for the ride?  Try this... don’t post immediately after someone disagrees with you. Take a moment. Pause. Think. Is this going to escalate into WWIII? Is my response furthering the discussion or just restating my original opinion? Am I adding anything constructive to the conversation or am I just saying “un-uh” to somebody else’s “un-ha”? Ok, now take a breath, hold it, then let it out slowly.  Ok, now ponder your response. And finally, post a response that does these three things... acknowledges the other persons opinion as different, respectfully states your new supporting arguments without repetition of old ones, and finally, does so without attacking or targeting a specific other member.  This is how we have a civil discussion. 

Is discussion etiquette that hard?

[Vectormatic]

I think this topic should be left to the discretion of the mods, especially since threads like these can easily be interpreted as "people bitching about people bitching"

 

If i still allow myself to drop my 2 cents in this discussion, i feel like criticism of TLG is generally talked down too much here, which in turn results in the critics getting more militant since they feel cornered. I myself find myself in the critics camp more often then not, and the appologists often drive me away for weeks, im affraid that trying to sanitize the discussion even more will just push criticism of TLG further into a corner, and just makes this a TLG echo chamber

[Lipko]

I really don't understand why you are so sensitive about what's happening on the forum. I understood when you were offended in your intro thread, but why do you care so much about the general attitude here?

Plus the majority of the over-passionate comments is because 3-4 separate subtopics are debated simultaneously in one thread and people feel that their comments are ignored. The Chiron thread is a good example, because there was the "lack-of-features" subtopic, the "quality-of-existing-features" subtopic, the "looks" subtopic, the "chassis colors" subtopic, the "who's-the-target-audience"  subtopic, the "modding-is-part-of-the experience-or-ruins-it" subtopic and maybe more. Even if the opinions of a subtopic are quite polarized, people have different sides in each subtopic. I can't really name many people who had all the same opinions as me, but dozens of people had the same opinions as me in each subtopic. It's very hard to follow so the thread became something like a loud marketplace where most people felt ignored or not understood, so felt the need to restate the opinion in one of or all subtopics many times.

Honestly this is the friendliest forum I'v seen in on the internet, even with the almost zero moderation. I was a forum addict for 2 years, so I've seen some.

I agree with you that everyone should take a minute before replying to a comment, I have countless replies, even pretty long ones that I didn't post eventually.

Clearly my forum addiction was not enough to learn how to effectively communicate, sorry....

Edited June 19, 2018 by Lipko

[Zerobricks]

I'm just gonna say it like this. Untill about 2 years ago I was very active on this forum, posting daily replies.

But than something changed in the whole society, everyone became soft, easy to offend and a victim.

And I think this is also reflected on this forum, people are much more easy to be insulted by other's opinions and letting their emotions take over.

As other suggested, think before you reply, is the argument really worth fighting for?

Simply try to accept people have different opinions and THAT IS FINE, just as there are people with different orientations, races, cultures, etc..

[TeamThrifty]

This forum is fine as @Lipko just mentioned... heavy handed draconian sanitization isn't an answer. Society is full of hyper sensitive people being offended on someone elses behalf, and all that massive PC crap will be the downfall of civilisation as no-one dare say anything just in case it upsets someone... Winston Smith thought he had it bad.

Let people talk, and maybe bicker, but i've seldom seen anything worse on here. Imposing THE RULE on everyone is not the answer. Especially on a friendly forum like this one.

[Maaboo the Witch]

If I think something is crap, I will be unrepentant in my criticisms (42080). If I think it's cool, I will be excited about it (42081). Simple as that. If you think the opposite, then fine.

[TeamThrifty]

3 minutes ago, Zerobricks said:

everyone became soft, easy to offend and a victim.

In society in general, i agree, but not really on here

@Maaboo35 totally agree. (and not just to avoid an argument!) 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[Milan]

We will move this to our Community forum.

[Bublehead]

If People think I am wanting them to stop posting their opinions, they missed the thrust of my post.  I would like people to friendly discuss things, not continually bickering or fighting or arguing for the sake of arguing.  I’m not an advocate of PC or of draconian measures or of BiG Brother.  People need to dial it back and take a moment.  Think.  Be respectful of differences.  Be courteous to all of us and not just keep repeating yourselves.  I didn’t say you don’t have the right to defend your opinions, but the problem is people will not accept to agree that they disagree.  Don’t get so enamored with your opinion that you feel you have to not stop promoting it until everyone thinks like you do.  State your opinion and move on. Let it go. Don’t start carrying grudges just because people can’t seem to get you or your ideas.  We get it- you hate the 42070. Don’t beat us over the head with it. Not every post is an attack on you when you disagree with it.  That was all I was trying to get across. Have a little decorum and etiquette people. This should be fun, not a debate club international competition.

[Erik Leppen]

One of the things I have always learned is that if you want to state an opinion, say it as an opinion and not as a fact. If you think X, don't say "X", say "I think X". That way, you keep X as something part of yourself (namely, as your opinion). If you think "not X", I think it's much harder to be offended by someone saying "I think X" than by someone saying "X".

Of course, discussion goes beyond "I think X", by not only stating opinions but also providing arguments. Maybe the person thinking X and the person thinking "not X" have drawn two opposite conclusions from similar premises, and by seeing each other's reasoning people can learn new ways of thinking about things.

[Bublehead]

@Erik Leppen, I agree, stating “my opinion is X”  is better than stating it like “X is truth” and “Not X” is blasphemy.  

We tend to move things into rigid “Coke” v.s. “Pepsi” categories and then baton down the hatches for World War III.  This becomes a game of who can convince who and no real discourse is actually had. Our biggest problem is we all think we are an “expert” at this and that our viewpoint is the only way to look at things.  I know if I thought about it, I fall in this category as well, and in the future will try and qualify my statements more thoroughly and not rely on anything but actual published facts and anecdotes from trusted sources, and will include them when I can or identify when I speak from personal experience.  This phenomenon is what I call implied expertise. It comes from us hearing or reading or seeing something from a trusted source and then trying to proselytize to others. We feel we are right and justified in our beliefs because we heard it from “the source” and we need not validate when or where or by who we heard it from. We become an “expert” in the subject and no amount of discussion is going to change our minds.  And so we get the back and forth as the combatants wage war on the forums and everyone gets tired of it and moves on to other things.  

My hope is, most of us can see the big picture, realize we are not all experts, that we identify our sources and back up our opinions with provable facts, or simply state when something is YOUR opinion, and not a fact. That we keep it light hearted and funny and constructive, not dark and bleak and gloomy and destructive. These forums exist to enhance our hobby, not tear it down.

[RohanBeckett]

Humans have bickered over things for thousands of years... I'm pretty certain it's in our nature to argue...

Internet forums tend to just amplify things :)

[Bublehead]

Totally agree @RohanBeckett

[WhiteFang]

This is an interesting discussion. I like civil discussion and seeing how quality comments evolved over time in the course of discussion. Anyway, this is a forum where we do not tolerate trolls or bashers unlike any other platforms. 

Sometimes, comments may be easily misunderstood and lead to a rowdy discussion. It is also to a large extent on how clear we write and express ourselves. The way we write may not equate direct translation of how you really truly felt or for your statement to be truly represented. This is because there is a lack of tone behind your comments and readers will read it based on their interpreted tone. 

Which is why, it’s always important to be clear and concise in the way on how we get our points across. There is no right or wrong in a discussion. We can be overly hype on things we adore and love. That does not mean we lose the ability to be objective in the way on how we articulate our thoughts. 

In short, we are not like any other foras or social media platform where quantity is thriving versus quality. 

Thanks Bublehead for starting this topic. 

[Paknaloid]

17 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

all that massive PC crap will be the downfall of civilisation as no-one dare say anything just in case it upsets someone... Winston Smith thought he had it bad.

I will say that it should work both ways - if someone wants to post something without fear of censorship, the right of anyone else to be offended by that post should also be respected - rather than thinking everyone who takes offence is part of a general 'softening' of society.  As with everything like this, it's a balancing act (and obvs, a bigger and more important question than just EB forum posts :))

And of course, if anyone criticises this post, I'll be on them like sh*t on a monkey 

[MAB]

12 hours ago, Bublehead said:

@Erik Leppen, I agree, stating “my opinion is X”  is better than stating it like “X is truth” and “Not X” is blasphemy.  

 

1

Why have you said that? You have not indicated that it is an opinion and not fact. You should have written "I agree, in my opinion, stating “my opinion is X”  is better than stating it like “X is truth” and “Not X” is blasphemy."

Which really gets to the issue here - whatever someone posts IS their opinion, not fact. There is no need to say "In my opinion ..." before every statement.

[Bublehead]

@MAB, interesting point, I see that it is your opinion that the issue is we need to accept every post as an opinion instead of identifying what is an opinion and what is not when we state something.  

That is how we should interpret all posts, but that is missing my point of implied expertise. People make statements that we should take as an opinion, yet they are not offered as opinion, they are offered as unmitigatable, unarguable facts.  This leads into heated discourses and debates where both sides dig in and we get the back and forth that hallmarks the decline of a rational exchange of ideas, and so much for civility and decorum. At least that is my observation and opinion on the subject.  And so far, I would consider this a civil discussion because we are communicating and understanding each other, even if our opinions differ. 

Since the whole idea of a forum is the communication and sharing of thoughts, ideas, opinions, beliefs, preferences, likes, dislikes, etc... we are naturally bound for a bumpy ride.  The reason for me starting this thread was to'open the dialog on the subject of civility and etiquette when we post, how we achieve it, and what could we all do better at to keep our discussions lively, but respectful of everyone, especially when two parties get locked into the back and forth that would be better handled by PM, not aired out in a public forum.

Just my opinion. 

 

[MAB]

Yes, unless someone either says "it is a fact" or they provide evidence to back up their opinion as fact, I take anything said as opinion rather than fact. And if they say "it is a fact" and I don't believe it, then I'd ignore it unless there is proof and assume that it is opinion.

Take these two statements, neither are offered as a fact or opinion, just statements:

 

The 2x4 brick has 8 studs.

Red bricks are much better than blue (or set X is better than set Y).

 

The first one, probably nearly everyone will agree with, it is hard to argue against it and it can be taken as fact. The second one, many won't agree with it, it is clearly a subjective statement. It is an opinion not fact. However, if backed up by data (such as average review scores for sets) then it might have some credence.