Opinions on LEGO Technic Theme

[Jim]

Recently there was a discussion about the B-model of the Rough Terrain Crane. This comment made me think:

3 hours ago, Timoonn said:

Lack of resources/ambition to create a real alternative model, it says a lot about what becomes of the Technic theme...

This was my answer:

I find this a bit exaggerated as well. It might very well be the case that TLG didn't have the time/resources to create a proper B-model, but is that really something we need to complain about. The A-model is the star of the show and in this case, the star seems to be delivering.

However, I do like to start a discussion, because I really wonder why people think the Technic Theme used to be better. When I came out of my dark ages in 2005, I can honestly say I was impressed by the crane. But to say that 2005 is better than 2018....I don't think so. 

If you look at the line-up of 2018, it's pretty impressive if you ask me. Okay, the B-model of the Rough Terrain Crane is a cop out, but does that mean the Technic Theme is getting worse?!

And instead of a single Flagship, we get two (or three) big sets a year. Besides that TLG is releasing lots of cool new parts. So for me, Technic definitely is doing fine. Okay, it can be a bit repetitive, but the average customer (i.e. kid) will play with it for five years, instead of 20+ years like most AFOLs.

[andythenorth]

Googling 'why people think the past was better than the present' gets a lot of results 

I've been around Lego Technic since 8841 https://brickset.com/sets/8841-1/Dune-Buggy . It's not getting worse. 

Extreme voices tend to dominate internet forums. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by andythenorth

[Timoonn]

I wasnt trying to launch a debate, just a personal opinion

Let me figurate that im back into Lego since 2006, and i'm very demanding concerning Lego products, and especially big Technic sets.
Technic theme is, in theory, my main Theme. You can see my collection here https://brickset.com/sets/ownedby-Timoonn/theme-Technic

My last flagship is the Arocs, the last (for me) great technic set. Since the Arocs, Lego released
42055: very big, not very "playable" , all that for this.
42056: very expensive, poor playability/technicity, aesthetically average
42070: very expensive, average playbaility but not stellar, ridiculous technic choices, asthetically botched
42083: very very expensive, almot not "playable", aesthetically average+

42082 looks a little better, but it remains mixed

Sets are getting bigger and bigger, but not systematically better.

Obviously this is my very personnal opinion, as a "old" afol "Technic veteran"

The era of 8043, 8275, 8110 and others is gone for now. And im missing it. The time when every flagship was great at first sight (beyond the number of pieces), innovative and without kicking the 200 € price limit.

This year Lego has released 14 Technics versus 8 sets ten years ago. Here is the logic of quantity - not always - means quality. I never buyed so few technics since 2016/17/18

 

On 6/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, andythenorth said:

Googling 'why people think the past was better than the present' gets a lot of results 

I've been around Lego Technic since 8841 https://brickset.com/sets/8841-1/Dune-Buggy . It's not getting worse. 

Extreme voices tend to dominate internet forums. 

You cant really compare studless and studfull sets. This is not just a "old versus new".

Dominant voices on Eurobricks are those that like everything no matter what it is, actually.

My points and "critics" concern the sets and theme evolution during the "modern" studless era ans especially the last 3 years.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Timoonn

[Jim]

Just now, Timoonn said:

I wasnt trying to launch a debate, just a personal opinion

Well, that's what this forum is all about (personal opinon) 

But I figured it granted a separate topic.

Just now, Timoonn said:

Sets are getting bigger and bigger, but not systematically better.

That is something I kinda agree to. Technic sets often seem to be more "Proof of Concepts" than "This is actually working pretty well". This goes for cranes like the Arocs, suspension on the Bugatti, etc

[TeamThrifty]

I agree with everything @Jim has just written.

My first phase was 1980 - 1988, then i returned in 2009 with 8258. WOW!! It blew my mind how much it had moved on in the 20 year gap, and each year there's something that does that to me again.. 

Its not about B-model perfection, or even A model perfection. Its more than that, its the collective whole... the official sets, the new parts, the implementation.. 42082 appears to use a bearing between the ring gears... not seen that on a moc. They've planted a seed right there, a new idea that people can pick up and run with. The official set is great for newbies to learn how it all works, like i had to again in 2009, and its great for the rest of us to see new ideas on 'offical mocs'(!).. but i'm primarily a moc-er, i love building the sets, but once built, take it to bits and build that next idea, so maybe thats why i'm not so fussed about B models..

From my 'seasoned' perspective  Lego are doing a brilliant job. They deliver more large sets per year than ever (i think?), and there are new parts to inspire... suits me just fine!! 

9 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

Googling 'why people think the past was better than the present'

"Everything was better when everything was worse..."

[Ngoc Nguyen]

Echo Jim. Can't really fathom the attributed superiority to Technic sets of last generation.

As a person who buy sets for display, I care most about the appearance and aesthetic value. On those terms current Technic sets beat those of last generation by a long long shot.

[Seasider]

I'm "quite" happy with Lego and Technic at the moment. I know I'm never going to like everything or buy everything, partly as I'm wondering if i should scale back my spending or even sell off old Lego sets that now just sit in boxes.

But back on topic ... I do like having a different B-model to the A and part of that is down to liking some of the B-models more than the A.

The bigger issues I have at the moment is the trend is to bigger and more expensive sets. I've bought both the "UCS" sets but I'm also of the opinion that bigger doesn't mean better.

It's also tough with ideas and themes, how do you come up with something new each time ? I think that with the Technic we generally have a good rotation of model themes covering lots of different things including some very interesting and unusual vehicles. I like the Extreme Off-Roader, but the recent hovercraft with mini truck was a bit odd.

 

 

[mpj]

It's very difficult to compare old models with current models, because 10 years ago we were 10 years younger and we had different expectations!

On the aesthetic view, surely the current sets are more refined, so now I can say that current sets are the best.

But I remember when I was a child I loved some spartan sets like 8862... technic sets change, and we also change

[ctx1769]

Technics is all about machines for us to build and enjoy, it doesn't matter to me if one crane is better than the next, we as builders can improve it.

[Maaboo the Witch]

Sets like 42076 and 42080 concern me. They don't reinforce the Technic ethos of "this is real". I know TLG is adopting a futuristic theme for Technic again but neither of the two aforementioned sets, nor others like 42049, are clearly meant to be futuristic concepts and yet they don't reflect the aesthetics of an actual real-world machine, and this is becoming more pervasive. Pick a theme for a set and stick with it! 

And it's a shame, because when the Technic designers choose one or the other, the results are stunning (42063-B, 42081 for example).

Edited June 18, 2018 by Maaboo35

[Ngoc Nguyen]

Just now, Maaboo35 said:

They don't reinforce the Technic ethos of "this is real".

I beg your pardon. 42080 is based on a real machine. The only thing that is perhaps not real about is the color scheme.

[Aventador2004]

3 minutes ago, ctx1769 said:

Technics is all about machines for us to build and enjoy, it doesn't matter to me if one crane is better than the next, we as builders can improve it.

Good point, this is what I love about sets. 

I think it is getting much better, I don't think it for worse. The complexity and mechanics have improved. This makes for much more interesting sets. There are some bad ones, but even 42080 is a fine set. It has the properties to be a good seller.

[Maaboo the Witch]

Just now, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I beg your pardon. 42080 is based on a real machine. The only thing that is perhaps not real about is the color scheme.

The general aesthetic and design is not realistic, and the B-model is even worse in that regard. Plus the functions seem to be stuck between harvester and feller buncher. Again, TLG - pick something and stick with it! 

[Ivan_M]

My main gripe about current sets is that they are way too large for what functions they have. "Build as large as you need, not as you can" is comunity "rule", but i think guys at TLG should take that in mind. For example - extreme adventure shoud be way smaller, on the other hand, Mack is perfectly fine (and would be way too big with 62mm wheels).

As for B models - I have already spoke my mind in next topic:

Quote

I do not build B models at all (not even A models..) but I remmember from my youth that B models (and BI from various ideas books) were wery important at that time. MOCing (and esp. studless) is not an easy job for kids so I think that the B model should be something better than the one from this set. Take an inspiration from BWE or Mack, those ar good B models and proof, that TLG can make them right.

I would be VERY surprised to see youngsters building anything near B models out of the pile of parts. Studless building is much more difficult than studfull used to be. That is why I think B models are important.

I wonder where TLG sees Technic in 5-10 years..

[ibessonov]

I never had technic sets when I was a kid. My serious dedication to it started in 2013 but I have (or build from my pieces) several sets from 2010 or even earlier. So my thought are:

- Sets are continuously getting bigger. This is both good and bad thing. Bad because I have to spend more money.

- From construction point of view new sets are superior. I've seen some very questionable building techniques in old sets like motors not being protected with 24z clutch gear, stressed parts or even what they call "illegal connections". New sets just feel more solid to me.

- New pieces / colors - this is awesome. I wish I had, for example, some yellow panels that you can't find in modern sets but there's always some secondary market where I can buy them.

About B models - it's pretty easy to make something relatively good from a pile of 200 pieces. It's hard to do it with 600 and nearly impossible with 3000 (using most of parts). So it's ok to expect B models of huge sets not to be as remarkable as sets themselves.

[lcvisser]

In my opinion, the Technic theme used to be better for only on reason: it was LEGO, in the sense that it used the same kind of bricks and plates that the other themes used. There was a fairly smooth transition from System to Town to Model Team to Technic. Nowadays Technic really feels like a completely disjoint theme and I find it hard to integrate with “regular” LEGO due to the odd versus even spacing. 

Don’t get me wrong though: I love the new pieces and how much more advanced mechanisms can be built with them. But the downside is that the theme is becoming more specialized and with that it also becomes more difficult to build something with the same set of parts, which I think is reflected in the perceived lack of creativity in the b-models. (I say “perceived”, because I think they’re only seen like that compared to the super advanced a-models.) I notice it in my building too: even with 10000 parts from the studless era I still have to order stuff because I’m short on some connector or something. Also, because the theme is disjointed, there’s no comparison possible with other themes, e.g. regarding playability. 

Just my €0.02, if it makes sense. 

[Maaboo the Witch]

I am not complaining about the theme overall, mind. There's always something cool in the mix, and with so many varied opinions and expectations there's something for everyone. I'm jazzed about 42081, while others are not, and that's good. I think 42080 is a steaming pile of vomit and yet others want it, and that's good too.

Yes, the theme's changed over time due to changing trends and preferences, but that's because TLG is a business. And some of the directions it's taken in general don't exactly thrill me (see my previous post), but I do confess to rosy retrospection (I'm sure a fair number of us want to be nine years old again) and there's still a great deal to be excited about. Technic isn't better or worse in my book - it's just different. There are loads of older sets a lot of us think were total misfires, I'm sure. Slizers, anyone? Roboriders? How about the trio of weird emergency vehicles with switchable segments? Don't think 42080 could touch those for sheer silliness... 

(Yes, I collected all of the Slizers and Roboriders when I was a kid, kind of proud of it)

Edited June 18, 2018 by Maaboo35

[Ivan_M]

4 minutes ago, Ludo Visser said:

...

True. I like studless over studfull, but for kids, it is the opposite. If the boy aged 7-10 would venture from city to Technic, he is left with very small collection of parts that can be re-utilized. It is like starting over with collection. Would you do that as a kid? Improving studfull model with systems parts is so easy and with great effect, how would you improve any current model with system bricks?

[Cumulonimbus]

The “things used to be better in the past” sentiment is a typical human tendency, and one which is  often not back-up by objective arguments. Additionally, I think it is not really fair to compare studful with studless sets, both systems have their pros and cons, but overall I think the sets have become much more complex and interesting in the studless era. 

Looking at my own buying behavior of new sets (I ignore my second hand sets), I noticed that they are pretty consistent since 2009. Only in 2013 and 2014 I bought nearly all sets released that year.

Year	# sets bought new
2009	2
2010	4
2011	4
2012	2
2013	6
2014	7
2015	4
2016	4
2017	4

So overall, I think that the claim that it used to be better is not valid for me for the following reasons:

1. I’m still impressed by the drive of TLG to create vehicles which are new to the Technic line: the BWE, cargo plane, research ship, sailing boat, hovercraft to name a few, indicate that they are willing to take a risk. The futuristic 42081 underlines this even more.

2. The color use is something in which TLG is making an effort as well. Most models are vibrant and look inviting in the shop and at home. This is a big improvement since the “yellow and red” era.

3. One of my purchase triggers is the innovation in mechanisms in a new set: I liked the crane truck for the first relative compact knuckeboom crane, the Claas for its 4 wheel steering modes and the Mack for its loading mechanism. Those solutions let me grow as a builder. I understand that not all sets can be as revolutionary, but I don't see a declining trend over the past decade here.

However, the trend of growing set sizes without significant increase in functions worry me a bit for things to come. The 42082, 42077 and 42070 are examples of this. The studless system allows for compact models with interesting mechanisms, so I would like to see more clever mid-sized models instead of a new set which yet another record breaking part count. Keep in mind that building studless has an inherent drawback: the bigger you build the more space will be needed to create a structure which is rigid enough to carry the extra weight, leaving less room for functions. I think even in the Bugatti suffers from this.

A final note: B-models are still important to me, because they create an opportunity for an official model without the restriction of it being a good selling model. It can be a machine which is not popular or recognizable enough to be an A-model. The 42055B Sorting machine, the 8043B Traxcavator and the 42009B Reach stacker are all models which I have found exciting to build and have learned me new building tricks. For each of these B-models I even have bought a second set, which I imagine is one of the main motivators for TLG to even do B-models.

Conclusion: Yes, I’m a bit disappointed in the 42082 and its B-model as many of you, but I don’t agree things used to be much better.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Cumulonimbus
typos

[andythenorth]

1 hour ago, Timoonn said:

Dominant voices on Erubricks are those that like everything no matter what it is, actually.

I think we each notice different things depending on our own views   I notice other voices more.  . 

1 hour ago, Timoonn said:

Sets are getting bigger and bigger, but not systematically better.

I think this nails it.

Sticker price is up, piece count is up.  Space required to store it is bigger.  But the toy isn't systematically better.

 

FWIW, I see no distinction in build or play experience between stud-ful and stud-less.  It's all one continuum of Technic to me.   

 

[Bartybum]

@Cumulonimbus Your comment on set sizes increasing is one of the things about Technic that worries and annoys me. I want higher part counts to go into functions, not structure and decoration.

[TeamThrifty]

49 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

I want higher part counts to go into functions, not structure and decoration

Tend to agree with this, though i'm fine with structure... 42055 is virtually all structure and was a great build. Decoration doesn't interest me really - building the Porsche body bored me, but loved the chassis. But others really enjoy that, so thats good - we all appreciate different things.

I am a sucker for high part count/bigger models, i can't lie.. i love BIG! Sorry, i think i'm in the minority there.

The best balance for me so far has been the Arocs, good size, no empty space, everything on it had a technical role - some decoration, but not too much. But you can't expect that every year, you need to look at the longer term trend - climate, not the weather - and the technic climate is an improving picture, despite the odd blip.

[Mylenium]

I don't see the issue with "lack of ambition and resources for B-models". Some B-models are in fact more appealing than the A-models, with the 42077's buggy being a good example. The rest can be debated ad infinitum, but personally I don't see why the Porsche or Bugatti should even have B-models. Clearly they are meant as "build once, then put on display". It's a completely different target demographic. The only point of concern/ regret with them is that Technic aficionados will have to use Bricklink or buy the sets, after all, to get some of the more specific parts. It's that inconsistency that always rubs me the wrong way. E.g. it's probably going to take forever before those shift gear corkscrews appear in other sets as well.

Mylenium

2 hours ago, Bartybum said:

I want higher part counts to go into functions, not structure and decoration.

 

1 hour ago, TeamThrifty said:

Tend to agree with this, though i'm fine with structure...

To me that seems like wrong priorities either way. To me it's all about "finesse" for lack of a better term. I wanna be enawed by clever enginering solutions, but at the same time the models to look nice and have decent functions. Whether that necessitates a thousand parts or just hundred is secondary to me. E.g. my exploits with the 42057 (https://myleniumsbrickcorner.wordpress.com/2018/06/10/final-surprise-42057-moc-finished/) hopefully show that even the smallest of models can inspire you. At the same time a big model can be just tedious to build, regardless whether it's the structural elements or functional parts, if it has too many repetitive steps and is too simplistic overall. That is to say the satisfaction one can derive from building Technic models hinges on a lot of factors and to me it's mostly about a good balance of all the different aspects.

Mylenium

Edited June 18, 2018 by Mylenium
Fixed defunct link

[Bublehead]

People are chiming in about the state of our art, or obsession, and the direction it is taking.  From someone who has been around since the debut of the theme, let me retort.

The things everyone are saying about Technic (pro and con) are no different now than they were back in the beginning.  People had issues with holes in studded beams that axles could pass through... it was foreign to users then, and now we hear the same things about studless building techniques and the mix of system. Back in the day, Technic was a bastard stepchild of system, some would even classify it as heretical.  People say that now about mixing system back into Technic.

People have always had problems with the B models,  The complaints now are the same as the complaints back then. 

 There will always be an unhappy vocal minority who think that the Lego Group doesn’t know what they’re doing and that things were “always better in the past” and “things look murky for the future” has been the state of the Technic theme since it’s inception.

We will continue to buy what they give us, we will continue to complain about it, and we will continue to scratch our heads at TLG’s choices. It has been this way for ever, and will continue on infinitum.  Still building my Chiron... still complaining about it. Nothing new here but Technic sets to build.  That makes me happy.

[TeamThrifty]

5 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

still complaining about it. Nothing new here but Technic sets to build.  That makes me happy

There's a lot a truth right there!!!!