doug72

[GBC] Akiyuki Train System: Type 2 mods and improvements

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1 hour ago, Berthil said:

@Innocity use my double passing module and use either worm gear lift from Doug72 or my modified 'worm' gear lift with Akiyuki gearing and counterweights and switch at the bottom. Worked almost flawlessly for 2 event days.

Wow~ I was thinking about doing what you said a while ago. I'm going to build your double passing module and Doug72 ver or Worm drive with counterweights version.

Thanks.

23 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

Congratulations on building the debut GBC Train system.

These problems are common with the original Akiyuki versions for the elevator and passing loop modules.

Elevator:- trips and train stops are difficult to get adjustments correct.

Sudden dropping is due to the rubber band at lower level losing tension allowing the train chock to release the train when lowering.
The problem when raising is the latch releasing too early.

The modifications remove all these trips, latches and rubber bands.

With my worm version it is impossible for elevator to drop suddenly BUT is slower than the @Berthil version which uses spur gears & counterweights. It also meets the GBC ball throughput requirement of 1 ball / sec..

Passing loop module,
@Berthil version is very reliable and the track switches can be set to allow it to be used as passing module or a dwell module.

As you say I should make modified modules. I should check the additional bricks used by running Studio.

Thanks.

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On 8/30/2019 at 3:00 PM, Berthil said:

@Innocity use my double passing module and use either worm gear lift from Doug72 or my modified 'worm' gear lift with Akiyuki gearing and counterweights and switch at the bottom. Worked almost flawlessly for 2 event days.

Nice work on the full train system. It is defiantly a big build!

 

 

The Studio file for my MODs for the unloading unit are complete --> https://bricksafe.com/pages/HRU_Bricks/gbc-train-modules-including-akiyuki-train-modules https://bricksafe.com/files/HRU_Bricks/gbc-train-modules-including-akiyuki-train-modules/Modified Train Unloader.mp4 

There is far less friction for the cart in and out of the unloader and it dose not get court or break any bricks off too. I ran it for an hour with the loading unit and did not have any issues or stoppages. The tyres  act as the initial buffer to ensure the cut is centered and the bushes take over along the edge.

Modified%20A18014_TrainUnloader_Studio%2

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4 hours ago, HRU_Bricks said:

The Studio file for my MODs for the unloading unit are complete --> https://bricksafe.com/pages/HRU_Bricks/gbc-train-modules-including-akiyuki-train-modules https://bricksafe.com/files/HRU_Bricks/gbc-train-modules-including-akiyuki-train-modules/Modified Train Unloader.mp4 

There is far less friction for the cart in and out of the unloader and it dose not get court or break any bricks off too. I ran it for an hour with the loading unit and did not have any issues or stoppages. The tyres  act as the initial buffer to ensure the cut is centered and the bushes take over along the edge.

 

Nice mod for entry into the unloader, original design is very prone to jamming etc.

Re Reverser for Loading module:-
Notice in your video you are using two striker arms for the train reverser, but only one rubber band.

Any reason why ?    Your instructions only show one.
I have had no trouble with using only one striker arm but can increase power by using two rubber bands.


The train unit 15L beams tend to droop and restrict movement and can sometimes catch in the rotary dumper.

I replaced these with shorter 13L beams for M motor train and for the L train motor used 11L beams which has less friction and cannot droop.  

Edited by Doug72

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23 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Nice mod for entry into the unloader, original design is very prone to jamming etc.

Re Reverser for Loading module:-
Notice in your video you are using two striker arms for the train reverser, but only one rubber band.

Any reason why ?    Your instructions only show one.
I have had no trouble with using only one striker arm but can increase power by using two rubber bands.


The train unit 15L beams tend to droop and restrict movement and can sometimes catch in the rotary dumper.

I replaced these with shorter 13L beams for M motor train and for the L train motor used 11L beams which has less friction and cannot droop.  

Thanks Doug, yes the original desgin was not as reliable as one hopes for and was a bit of a pain at last years Bricktober Show. The other major change was having a 24T gear on each side of the unloader to help with torque transfer and to stop it jumping gears. 

The 2 striker arms was something I was experimenting with to get a more consistent strike to guarantee that it will switch over. When I tried the double rubber bands it tended to wear out the batteries faster. Your spot on with the droop and I did think that the flex in the the 15L beam was a contributing factor for the module not switching completely. I haven't tried the 13L (far simpler solution lol) so I will give it a go. 

 

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I disassembled Akiyuki's passing module and assembled Berthil's passing module.

https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-22904/Berthil/akiyuki-train-passing-module-bidirectional/#bi
The train unit shakes too much when entering the entry. And the problem was that the train unit just passed the track without stopping. So I went back to Akiyuki's passing module.
Perhaps there was an error in the process of creating a PDF instruction, or something different from Berthil's original module.
 

I realized again that it was difficult to assemble while viewing lxf files, not PDF files. Why do most lxf files have errors and are incomplete? I decided to make a worm drive version (Doug72) first. Referring to the images in the forum here, I have almost completed the this incomplete module. I think the elevator module (Doug72) is also important for the position of the Technic gear rack (3743). Assemble as instructed and the Train unit stays in place without starting.  I've had other troubles as well.
After several attempts I finally disassembled it.
I hesitate to challenge the counterweights version. 
It was also incomplete when I viewed the lxf instruction.
This version has so many variants that it's confusing which one to reference.

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@Innocity check if your train axles with 8t gears are really centered and as close as possible to the train without causing too much friction. From you description of the passing module it sounds like your axles are climbing up the liftarms guides at the side which cause the shakes. The train is really sensitive on this point.

It is true there is not one solution, we all worked out solutions that works best for our own situation so there is not one 'single point of truth' building instruction.

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For the worm drive version, the positioning of the gear racks is critical and requires a 1/2 stud offset.

Note how close the end of the gear rack is to the 24T gears.
Outlined by red box in image.

When train is on the elevator the 8T gears on axle ends must sit over the 24T gear & the 1x1 tiles in the gear racks.

When the chock releases the train, the initial impetus to move is given by the 8T gears on axles,  acting on the two 24T gears.
Once moved forward slightly the the 8T gears on axle ends engage with the gear racks to move train off the elevator.

The 12 x 1 plate should be aligned on the 8 stud beam as shown to get the 1/2 stud offset.

48683002782_a5fbbe8e3f_z.jpg

48682083858_95bdf79c96_b.jpg

Edited by Doug72
Added image

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2 hours ago, Berthil said:

@Innocity check if your train axles with 8t gears are really centered and as close as possible to the train without causing too much friction. From you description of the passing module it sounds like your axles are climbing up the liftarms guides at the side which cause the shakes. The train is really sensitive on this point.

It is true there is not one solution, we all worked out solutions that works best for our own situation so there is not one 'single point of truth' building instruction.

I've tried several times, but never succeeded.
I think there are no problems with my Train units.
Because on Akiyuki's passing module I immediately reassembled it ran well.

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3 hours ago, Doug72 said:

For the worm drive version, the positioning of the gear racks is critical and requires a 1/2 stud offset.

Note how close the end of the gear rack is to the 24T gears.
Outlined by red box in image.

When train is on the elevator the 8T gears on axle ends must sit over the 24T gear & the 1x1 tiles in the gear racks.

When the chock releases the train, the initial impetus to move is given by the 8T gears on axles,  acting eon the two 24T gears.
Once moved forward slightly the the 8T gears on axle ends engage with the gear racks to move train off the elevator.

48682083858_95bdf79c96_b.jpg

It was an incomplete instruction on a PC at work. But when I ran LDD on my home PC, it was a more complete instruction.

https://bricksafe.com/pages/ajhstyle/elevator-module

I will reassemble the elevator module (Doug72 version) once more. How do you work with the lever in the picture?

I used a rubber band and the tension was too strong so it didn't work. Can you show me if you have the correct image?

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3 hours ago, Innocity said:

It was an incomplete instruction on a PC at work. But when I ran LDD on my home PC, it was a more complete instruction.

https://bricksafe.com/pages/ajhstyle/elevator-module

I will reassemble the elevator module (Doug72 version) once more. How do you work with the lever in the picture?

I used a rubber band and the tension was too strong so it didn't work. Can you show me if you have the correct image?

My version does not use any rubber bands, both train releases use trip arms with counterweights.

The link you posted shows the @Berthil version that does not use a worm gear.

Edited by Doug72

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My version also uses trip arms but does not have a counterweight but an elastic band to move the trip arm back. An elastic band because of room restrictions and reliability improvement as sometimes trip arms with counterweight got stuck in my build.

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12 hours ago, Doug72 said:

My version does not use any rubber bands, both train releases use trip arms with counterweights.

The link you posted shows the @Berthil version that does not use a worm gear.

In the lxf instruction, there was a red rubber band that I thought of using it.
I also removed the rubber band and used the Trip arms with counterweights but the train unit dashed forward without locking it. Could you show me images of trip arms with counterweights?

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4 hours ago, Innocity said:

In the lxf instruction, there was a red rubber band that I thought of using it.
I also removed the rubber band and used the Trip arms with counterweights but the train unit dashed forward without locking it. Could you show me images of trip arms with counterweights?

Does the “dash forward” occur when the elevator is at upper or lower level or  both ?

Edited by Doug72

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Elevator train trips. (Doug72 version)

Lower level trip:

48687342102_f95581ba1b_z.jpg

Lower level train trip chock raised when elevator at upper level:

48686828253_f87aae3b2b_z.jpg

 

Upper level train trip when elevator at lower level:

48686828278_f5585de141_z.jpg

 

Upper level train trip at point the train chock begins to lower to release the train.

48687342047_2d5f51b23e_z.jpg

 

Upper level train trip with chock lowered allowing train to exit:

48687170996_9e47a3e797_z.jpg

Edited by Doug72

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4 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Does the “dash forward” occur when the elevator is at upper or lower level or  both ?

When the elevator was at the bottom, the train unit was dashed forward without locking.

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25 minutes ago, Innocity said:

When the elevator was at the bottom, the train unit was dashed forward without locking.

In which direction ?

Train entering elevator or train exiting ?

====================================================================
Goto page 24 @ see post by @Frequenzberater about this problem, with subsequent replies.

Suspect you have not used a XOX cross block as shown in this image. this prevents trip arm hanging down.

46858768671_8b5e272c34_z.jpg

If it is missing train will over ride the chock when at upper level.

Check also that trip arm is not hitting stop before elevator is at lower level, the tracks should  line up as trip releases to train.

Some images of your elevator build would be usefull si I can try & see whats wrong.

 

Edited by Doug72

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25 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

In which direction ?

Train entering elevator from lower level or leaving the elevator at lower level

====================================================================
Goto page 24 @ see post by @Frequenzberater about this problem, with subsequent replies.

Suspect you have not used a XOX cross block as shown in this image. this prevents trip arm hanging down.

46858768671_8b5e272c34_z.jpg

If it is missing train will over ride the chock.

Check also that trip arm is not hitting stop before elevator is at lower level, the tracks should  line up as trip releases to train..

 

I already checked the image and assembled the elevator module. So the lever worked well.
The lever mechanism that I wanted to know is the third, fourth and fifth images(Upper lever train trip).
By the way, the elevator module you showed me has a string. Is it MajkiSpajki version?

800x600.jpg

 

I first want to build a Worm drive version (by Doug72), not a Worm drive with counterweights version. Although the elevator speed will be slower, then I will build a Worm drive with counterweights version if necessary. Which upper lever train trip is a good choice for this Worm drive version (by Doug72)?

Edited by Innocity

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49 minutes ago, Innocity said:

I already checked the image and assembled the elevator module. So the lever worked well.
The lever mechanism that I wanted to know is the third, fourth and fifth images(Upper lever train trip).
By the way, the elevator module you showed me has a string. Is it MajkiSpajki version?

I first want to build a Worm drive version (by Doug72), not a Worm drive with counterweights version. Although the elevator speed will be slower, then I will build a Worm drive with counterweights version if necessary. Which upper lever train trip is a good choice for this Worm drive version (by Doug72)?

3rd image :-

Trip arm is down and the train chocks are UP to hold the train.

4th image:-
Trip arm has justed hit the fixed trip roller (white )
The position of this has to be determined so train is held while elevator continuse to move UP.
Try various small wheels of different diameters to find the best solution.

5th image:-
Trip arm has now been fully moved such that the train chock is fully lowered and the train moves off the elevator.

Re string.
Its part of the counterweight system, based on @MajklSpajkl system but arranged to suit my build & availiable parts.

Elevator with worm works OK without counterweigt system but will be slower when ascending.
Using counterweights helps speed up travel up and reduces the motor load.

The image you show is for the @berthil version WITHOUT a worm which uses a different arrangment for the upper level trip.

Can you provide an image of YOUR actual build ?

Edited by Doug72

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38 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

3rd image :-

Trip arm is down and the train chocks are UP to hold the train.

4th image:-
Trip arm has justed hit the fixed trip roller (white )
The position of this has to be determined so train is held while elevator continuse to move UP.
Try various small wheels of different diameters to find the best solution.

5th image:-
Trip arm has now been fully moved such that the train chock is fully lowered and the train moves off the elevator.

Re string.
Its part of the counterweight system, based on @MajklSpajkl system but arranged to suit my build & availiable parts.

Elevator with worm works OK without counterweigt system but will be slower when ascending.
Using counterweights helps speed up travel up and reduces the motor load.

The image you show is for the @berthil version WITHOUT a worm which uses a different arrangment for the upper level trip.

Can you provide an image of YOUR actual build ?

Thank you very much for your detailed description.
I have already disassembled the worm drive version and reassembled Akiyuki's original elevator module.

So I'm going to order the bricks from the bricklink and build a worm drive version again. And I will compare it with Akiyuki original elevator module. I'll post images when it's done.

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Hello all. It's been a very hectic end of summer with the last of my 3 sons finally moving his family to Florida. Now all my children and grandchildren live within 15 minutes of me. 

@Berthil and @Doug72 - I finally rebuilt the train elevator to Akiyuki's original plans, but added @MajklSpajkl extended elevator frame and Berthils counter-weight system. The elevator is now fast and smooth and seems to be 100% reliable. This is the best I have had the train layout running. I left the Akiyuki upper latching system, but with the counter-weights, I cannot create a free fall which is good. Only one slight fine tuning problem. When the train transitions from the entrance ramp on to the elevator itself, many time the wheels spin and it does not fully sit on the elevator or engage the gears to lift it up. I am thinking that the 2 x 4 yellow beam (pages 53 and 54 of Akiyuki pdf), used to release the upper latch system, is raising the train too high just prior to being fully seated on the elevator. Just the slightest little push by hand and all is well. Maybe adding another 4L gear rack on the elevator (page 55)? The train leaves the elevator, once lowered, with no problem at all.  Any insights or suggestions?

I thank everyone who has contributed to this project, from Akiyuki, and all of the folks commenting and making modifications. It has been a wonderful project and quite unique. Once I finalize it running perfectly, my wife wants her dining room table back.

Edited by rskamen

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Wow. I am happy to report I found the problem with the train entering the elevator. There was an extra 3L cross block on the lower corner of the base frame (left over from the @MajklSpajkl build) which prevented the swing arm (page 44 of the BI) of the release mechanism from fully rotating. All is well and all is working PERFECTLY! 

Now to get all the grandchildren to play with it for a little bit and then carefully pack away the modules until I can show it some where. My wife gets her dining room table back and I am happy in the knowledge that I built this awesome properly functioning GBC Train Layout. On to the next project... I have the Bugatti Chiron, I have the Grove Mobile Crane MKII complete and ready, and I plan to order the Liebherr 9800 (Lego set 42100) as soon as it's released. I have also been gets parts for the Invisible Lift and the Fork-to-Fork. Going to be a busy fall and winter.

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I've built an elevator with counterweights version of MajkiSpajki. And compared it to Akiyuki's elevator module.

It's slow but I'm satisfied. 

Thanks to Doug72,MajkiSpajki, dunes.

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3 hours ago, Innocity said:

 

I've built an elevator with counterweights version of MajkiSpajki. And compared it to Akiyuki's elevator module.

It's slow but I'm satisfied. 

Thanks to Doug72,MajkiSpajki, dunes.

Nice comparison video showing the various builds, I like the back to back elevators demo.

Slow but sure v speed.

Doug

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I completed the original Rotary dumper module. 

As close as possible to the original, I used a metal ball with a diameter of 18mm and carefully set the timing.

As a result, it worked well without any errors at this time.

Thank you Doug72, Akiyuki.

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Well done on getting the original Akiyuki version working, I tried many times but always failed to get it syncronised.
It just had to miss one gear tooth during rotation to get out of sync.

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