Powered Up - A tear down...

[Jetro]

20 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Sigh.

Control+ is an app

yes, and the motors are called Technic motors, but so are the Spike motors. It's a confusing world, and sometimes the best way to make sure everyone understands is using the wrong names ;D 

[Toastie]

Wow. I thought LEGO was a toy - and all that Mindstorms stuff to get kids into programming etc.

Just browsing through the last 5 pages here ... reads like we are planning on going to the Alpha Centauri system soon using all-LEGO equipment, but we have a) to figure out what the names mean and b) to figure out what the stuff actually does.

Plus: The total confusion TLG is creating at increasing speed and width maybe fun to some, but the result is - discouraging. The folks I work with on implementing LEGO platforms for getting into programming and automation do now look for something else. For something that has reliable documentation for the devices and programs nowadays called apps.

Honestly? I can see that. Clearly.

It truly is a confusing world. Simply just causing more confusion by cranking out basically undocumented hard- and software is not helping at all to cope with the confusion in the world.

Once upon a time, there was a manual that came along with a piece of hardware or software. I sure know that these days are gone - for long. But how on earth do we >teach< this way? In the same confusing way?

Oh well, back to RCX's or even NXT's. They can accomplish a lot. Particularly with regard to the teaching aspect.

Best
Thorsten

 

[Mr Hobbles]

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

Plus: The total confusion TLG is creating at increasing speed and width maybe fun to some, but the result is - discouraging. The folks I work with on implementing LEGO platforms for getting into programming and automation do now look for something else. For something that has reliable documentation for the devices and programs nowadays called apps.

I don't teach in education (though I tried for a little bit) so I may not be fully versed in what the challenges are, but I guess I'm a little clear on how this "confusion" affects those teaching these things?

From my potentially naive point of view, you have a class of 20 students, so you buy a handful of SPIKE Prime (or Mindstorms) kits. It comes with motors, sensors, hubs, various LEGO elements, and a fully featured app available on multiple platforms (iOS/Android/Windows/macOS/etc), which as well as having graphical and textual programming interfaces, comes with hundreds of classroom lessons you can teach your students.

I'd imagine most classrooms wouldn't venture far outside of that safe zone, potentially further investing in the official SPIKE Prime expansion set, or maybe buying a handful of extra SPIKE Prime motors and sensors.

Similarly for the consumer - you buy a train, it comes with all the electronics required. You buy the new Haunted House, and the instruction manual comes with clear instructions about which motors you need to buy and how to download the app.

On the other hand the stuff we do here is very technical, intended to get the most out of our elements, unlocking the full potential of the entire system, and building third party applications and libraries before LEGO can because we're too impatient to wait. :) Its not stuff the average consumer cares about. You don't need to know any of it to drive your Powered Up lego train, and you don't need to know of any of it to buy motors youre told to buy and download the app from the location you're told to download it from.

People don't like change, and by their nature, people are impatient and non-forward looking. Even Power Functions took 5+ years before all the components were available that could rival 9v - people were very unhappy for a long time, especially the train crowd. You just have to read the Hobby Train threads and some of the linked LUGnet posts from 2006 to see just how much people hated the idea of giving up their precious metal tracks and embracing the battery box. I read some of the LUGnet posts yesterday - "RC and IR is too complicated for children!" was a comment that stuck out. How times change.

One of my main passions as a software engineer is automation. In my day-to-day job when not writing code, I need to automate everything from build processes to server deployments across fleets of thousands of servers. That's not a boast, every job has complexity. I tried my hand at teaching university students for a couple of years. I don't envy those that do it. But automation is never simple and by its nature complex, so if you really want to get the most out of any complex system you need to get "down and dirty", so to speak.

My point being, I'm not one that shies away from complexity. Yet from my point of view 9v was an incredibly complex system. Tens of different motor types all with different performance characteristics, some of them looking identical to each other! Without the work of @Philo I would not know which to use for what purpose. Between speed regulators, control labs, the dozens of battery box types, RCX's, multiple types of sensors, some requiring power and some not (blue vs yellow connectors) - there's a learning curve. The main differences between 9v and Powered Up is that 1) The complexity has moved from the hardware to the software which less people may be familiar with - It seems easier to stick some wires together than to understand code, and 2) People had 20 years of 9v to get used to it and for the system to expand. Powered Up has had 2 years. It's early days.

Ps. The antithesis of the perception of Legos increasing complexity is the new Mindstorms set, revealed today. The dumbing down over EV3 is quite drastic.

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Mr Hobbles

[henrysunset]

2 hours ago, Mr Hobbles said:

 Ps. The antithesis of the perception of Legos increasing complexity is the new Mindstorms set, revealed today. The dumbing down over EV3 is quite drastic.

As someone *significantly* more familiar with both of the systems, can you expand on the ways that you see the new Powered-up Generation Mindstorms (51515) as dumbed down when compared to EV3?

 

The main things that I am aware of which are either different are worse:

1. (worse) the removal of most of the buttons on the hub,
2. (different, probably worse) the replacement of a crappy-looking but useful grayscale LCD with a 5×5 grid of LED's.
3. (different) The new device has a slower 100mhz CPU, but based on a much newer ARM architecture, so I don't know if it is faster or slower overall... (but suspect that the battery life will be improved)
4. (different, probably better) a single connector for both sensors and motors.
5. (different, better) Smaller overall size makes it easier to integrate into models.
6. (different, probably better) Includes a decent-capacity Li-ion pack.

[Mr Hobbles]

54 minutes ago, henrysunset said:

As someone *significantly* more familiar with both of the systems, can you expand on the ways that you see the new Powered-up Generation Mindstorms (51515) as dumbed down when compared to EV3?

  

The main things that I am aware of which are either different are worse:

1. (worse) the removal of most of the buttons on the hub,
2.  (different, probably worse) the replacement of a crappy-looking but useful grayscale LCD with a 5×5 grid of LED's.
3. (different) The new device has a slower 100mhz CPU, but based on a much newer ARM architecture, so I don't know if it is faster or slower overall... (but suspect that the battery life will be improved)
4. (different, probably better) a single connector for both sensors and motors.
5.  (different, better) Smaller overall size makes it easier to integrate into models.
6. (different, probably better) Includes a decent-capacity Li-ion pack.

You hit most of them, but here's my take:

1. The replacement of a screen with a 5x5 matrix. The screen was useful in a lot of MOC's - many people put it to good use.
2. The lack of a USB port other than for charging. EV3 supported WiFi natively by plugging in a supported USB WiFi adapter. WiFi enabled robots to be controlled by network devices.
3. microSD card slot, and the ability to boot an OS from a microSD card, enabled the community to create their own Linux based OS's such as ev3dev. LEGO even provided a few alternatives of their own.
4. In doing so, the USB port could be used to connect to almost every device imaginable. It became a mini PC - many people used it as an official Raspberry Pi alternative (albeit slower).
5. The use of the Powered Up connector really is great, the unification of the various electronics standards has been a long time coming. Really, this has been my wish for a long time. But it's come at the expense of two ports. Even if they are all I/O now, many competition robots used all 7 or 8 ports to drive motors and sensors (Check out WRO robots if you're curious).

Much like my post above though, this is all dependent on your use cases. I imagine its fine for classrooms with the set curriculum, but the EV3 really became popular with the more advanced section of the Mindstorms community, it really did almost compete with the Raspberry Pi in many scenarios.

Of course, there are other advantages as you say - better battery, smaller size, etc, but it comes at the expense of the hackability that LEGO themselves enabled. Here's a simple example - an EV3, with the official LEGO USB camera from Vision Command plugged in, taking a picture and sending it to a printer over WiFi.

I like SPIKE Prime and the new Mindstorms as a standalone product, but its a step down from EV3 in the kinds of applications that can be achieved.

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Mr Hobbles

[ruppie]

Another source with some technical details:

https://github.com/pybricks/technical-info

To me very usefull according to typecodes of devices and some explanations about serial protocol.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by ruppie
writing mistakes

[Lok24]

7 hours ago, Toastie said:

Once upon a time, there was a manual that came along with a piece of hardware or software. I sure know that these days are gone - for long. But how on earth do we >teach< this way? In the same confusing way?

You can download all the lessons, like with the EV3 or WeDo.
And if you buy any set - what's so confusing with that?

The fact that here is a discussion about internal programs and IDs has nothing to do with the product the customer sees.

Did you ever do all the 60 lessons of the Boost Robotic Set? 
What do miss as documentation? A manual? For children that are seven years old?

[Toastie]

12 hours ago, Lok24 said:

What do miss as documentation? A manual? For children that are seven years old?

Well I guess I need more time to elaborate a bit on what you and others said here - no time now. Just that: Seriously teaching automation, independent operation, distribution of intelligence throughout a complex system (lets make that an atmospheric pressure laser ionization mass spectrometer, which is what I use to teach such things) and so and and so on - with >all< the bells and whistles the new LEGO line of devices provides, is certainly, most certainly not done with children 7 years old. I talk about students 18+(+) years old. Students in a chemistry curriculum not addicted to programming - they are addicted to find solutions and get things up and running.

In the past I was taking the RCX/NXT route to introduce that kind of thinking to chemistry students. I don't share the notion of the complexity of numerous sensors available in that particular system, even when taking into consideration HiTechnic etc lines of sensors. These things a serious. And well documented. Not in lessons - nobody at that level wants lessons.

Believe me, these folks can read manuals. As they can cope with complexity, as Chemistry (to many at least) is "complex". There is one thing in Chemistry though, that came with the modern world: When you say "1,2-dinitro-1-butene" every chemistry students in the 2nd semester can draw that thing up. Further thinking about it - maybe not. There are certainly other chemistry folks around here.

With "complexity" I never meant the system - I meant the - forgive me - all the way stupid approach of giving names. The system-less way. The buzz-word approach. I'd challenge the notion of 9V was equally complex, everything is complex in some way. Complexity loses "level", when proper nomenclature is invoked.

That was all I meant.

Plus: I am not entirely alone. There are other not-7-years-old people as well as no-programming-guru people as well. Which means of course nothing. I just was my >personal< take.

Have all a nice WE,
Thorsten    

Edited June 13, 2020 by Toastie

[Lok24]

Hi Thorsten,

stiil not sure what the "problem" is. You wrote:

On 6/13/2020 at 1:57 AM, Toastie said:

The folks I work with on implementing LEGO platforms for getting into programming and automation do now look for something else. For something that has reliable documentation for the devices and programs nowadays called apps.

The are some products on the market:
Boost: 7+, easys to use, can be handled with out writing (and documentation), about 60 "lessens"
Spike: 10-14 years, lessons can be downloadad
EV3: 10-18 years, lessons can be downloadad

And the LEGO Wireless Protocol is documented, as well as the python functions.
And pybricks micro-python is well documented.
The hardware is documented.

That is why you can concentrate on programming and solutions for a given problem.

[GianCann]

Just now, Lok24 said:

And the LEGO Wireless Protocol is documented

 

Just now, Lok24 said:

The hardware is documented

Yes and no... ;)

Or, in other words, not so clear and simple for many people, and not so in deep like we expected.

[Tcm0]

11 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

And the LEGO Wireless Protocol is documented, as well as the python functions.
And pybricks micro-python is well documented.
The hardware is documented.

the PUP system lacks a documentation like the mindstorm's HDK and the firmware development kit. The firmware is not open source. Idk if the wireless protocol features communication to the SPIKE hub.

The SPIKE python environment is not properly documented. There are SOME high level functions that are documented but not all (see the reply of https://www.facebook.com/groups/SPIKEcommunity/permalink/1122397554805142/) and there is a lower level API that enables stuff like audio file playback and connection to other Powered Up hubs but that's not documented. You can only kinda work your way through it because the micropython os can tell you which classes it offers.

[kbalage]

7 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

The are some products on the market:
Boost: 7+, easys to use, can be handled with out writing (and documentation), about 60 "lessens"
Spike: 10-14 years, lessons can be downloadad
EV3: 10-18 years, lessons can be downloadad

From my point of view that's the problem with the Powered Up app - every educational product (even the ones that share the protocol/platform) has some documentation, but the product that was made for the "masses" still has zero documentation and even if it had one it would be too complicated for most casual users. Hope to see it resolved in the future, but I think it was a mistake to launch the system without a proper and detailed instruction set, preferably focusing on the differences and advantages compared to Power Functions and how the basic functions of the previous system could be replicated in the new one. 

[zux]

Ugh, reading the last couple of pages made my head hurt. I'm yet to have any of PU elements, but entire thing is confusing. Is there any sort of a chart categorizing all PU motors and hubs by systems they work with, control options and what kind of features they have? Naming isn't essential as long as it is easy to distinguish items.

[Lok24]

20 minutes ago, zux said:

Ugh, reading the last couple of pages made my head hurt. I'm yet to have any of PU elements, but entire thing is confusing. Is there any sort of a chart categorizing all PU motors and hubs by systems they work with, control options and what kind of features they have? Naming isn't essential as long as it is easy to distinguish items.

you find the description of the motors and their features here in this thread:

Which features you can use with which hub and system depends on the software you use.

[zux]

That is not useful, unfortunately. I'm looking for something easy to understand visually. So having pictures of motors and hubs is would have been a huge advantage. A good example of easy to read data visually is Sariel's motors chart.

[Lok24]

8 minutes ago, zux said:

So having pictures of motors and hubs is would have been a huge advantage. A good example of easy to read data visually is Sariel's motors chart.

Ok, on this chart the source for that is mentioned, and here you find everything:

https://www.philohome.com/motors/motorcomp.htm

But naming is a bit different from LEGO.

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Lok24

[Conchas]

Maybe this can help you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PoweredUp/permalink/2292627667705358/

[zux]

1 minute ago, Lok24 said:

Ok, on this chart the source for that is mentioned, and here you find everything:

https://www.philohome.com/motors/motorcomp.htm

Ok, sorry, I must be explaining my issue in a way it is hard to understand. I know about Philo doing all this work to provide details for each motor. In case where there's need  for specific technical detail like motor's RPM and/or torque value - I'll just check his website. You can also see that Sariel's chart is based on Philo's data. While Philo is very good in doing all the science the data he gets is sometime hard to read. This has been fixed in Sariel's chart.

For PF era we had quite a simple world with few elements. All of them had certain properties that were easy to understand. I could easily select a motor and battery box I needed for Technic MOC, since properties for each item were clear. Now with PU I have no idea which motor does what without major research in figuring out of all the details for each particular element. And don't want to invest into PU stuff just to figure everything out myself. I see there are quite a few people that are far more knowledgeable than I am. So I was wondering if this knowledge has been put somewhere in a little more easy to read format.

14 minutes ago, Conchas said:

Maybe this can help you.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PoweredUp/permalink/2292627667705358/

Thanks. This is the form of data presentation I'm looking for. I read this table covers only the software compatibility with hubs and motors, but not the features of the motors.

[Gimmick]

32 minutes ago, zux said:

For PF era we had quite a simple world with few elements. All of them had certain properties that were easy to understand. I could easily select a motor and battery box I needed for Technic MOC, since properties for each item were clear.

Keep it simple:

Technic Hub + choose XL/L-Motor the same way you chose XL/L-PF-Motor.

[kbalage]

1 hour ago, zux said:

Thanks. This is the form of data presentation I'm looking for. I read this table covers only the software compatibility with hubs and motors, but not the features of the motors.

Sw compatibility might change with every upgrade so it's a challenge to maintain such list. Not sure what feature list you are looking for, I don't think there's anything more to tell about them than what was summarized previously (and the tech specs can be found in Philo's list):

There are 3 types of motors:

• Simple motors - only power control, no interactive functions - Simple medium linear motor (45303), train motor (88011)
• Tacho motors - speed / power control and relative position reporting, that means it can tell you where it is compared to the relative zero which is by default the position where it was turned on - Medium Linear Motor (88008), internal motors of the Move hub (88006)
• Smart motors - speed / power control and absolute position reporting, the motor has a mechanical zero position - Technic Large Motor (88013), Technic XL motor (88014), Large Angular motor (Spike Prime), Medium Angular Motor (Spike Prime / Mindstorms)

[Tcm0]

1 hour ago, kbalage said:

• Smart motors - speed / power control and absolute position reporting, the motor has a mechanical zero position - Technic Large Motor (88013), Technic XL motor (88014), Large Angular motor (Spike Prime), Medium Angular Motor (Spike Prime / Mindstorms)

Just a small addition: the volvo technic set will contain a large angular motor

[GianCann]

The stand-alone battery box!

[AVCampos]

Hmm, interesting. Those axleholes allow for a wired remote control scheme (provided we get cable extensions), like the buggy in the 8082.

[kbalage]

I was hoping to see some sort of speed control for the 2 ports, but I guess it is only an on/off switch for both directions like the PF switch :( 

[GianCann]

Just now, kbalage said:

but I guess it is only an on/off switch for both directions like the PF switch

Yes, I think so...