Powered Up - A tear down...

[Tcm0]

20 minutes ago, kbalage said:

Sure, but if you start to give them completely new names then it only makes the whole situation even more confusing for everyone. We need to either stick to the original (shop) name or append something to it to make it easier to differentiate, and that's where the categories can help. It can be either Simple/Tacho/Smart, or Power only/Relative positioning/Absolute positioning, whatever fits the best. In any situation you'll have a hard time explaining the exact differences with only a few words so some additional information is needed anyway.

Hmm. Then I think that original names with additional appends would be best.

Simple medium linear motor (for the batmobile motor)
Simple train motor
Medium linear motor with rotation sensor (for the boost motor)
Technic Large motor with position sensor (for Control+ L motor)
Technic XL motor with position sensor (for Control+ XL Motor)
Technic Medium angular motor with zero position marker (for SPIKE medium motor, with zero position marker is optional)
Technic Large angular motor with zero position marker (for SPIKE large motor, with zero position marker is optional)

Edited June 10, 2020 by Tcm0

[kbalage]

55 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

There is only one (the oldest) without a tacho. The "simple" one. (and of course train...)
All others send angles to the hub.

Train and Simple Medium Linear are power only, Medium Linear (and Move hub internal) only have relative positioning, and we don't know what is still in the pipeline.

56 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

Then, appending something,  you had to reflect that the hubs are very different too, according FW, batteries, usable stand alone and so on.
What is the purpose of such a list, and who should use the names? Who is the "anyone" mentioned above?

@henrysunset asked for a categorization of the PU hardware for this Brick Label collection. Since he did not use the exact default LEGO Shop names on the planned labels, the conversation started about the names and whether people would understand the differences between the hw elements based on their name.

Regarding the labels, I'd still stick to my original version - use the LEGO Shop names for easier identification and if it seems to be reasonable add a category to the motors, that's all. 

[Lok24]

6 minutes ago, kbalage said:

Regarding the labels, I'd still stick to my original version - use the LEGO Shop names for easier identification

I agree.

8 minutes ago, kbalage said:

.....  and if it seems to be reasonable add a category to the motors, that's all. 

For the purpose af a label and to identify a part in a discussion that doesn't seem that important to me.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

9 hours ago, kbalage said:

the Mindstorms variant will have a different color and potentially a different connected app

Crystall ball....

All you know is that Lego used the same mold for the housing as for the Spike hub.
Only reason you asume that is cause you saw a leaked picture of a chinese version of the coming 51515 set
The thing may have totally different guts. Or won't.. or...

As for the Technic hub, yes the one that may not be called control+ hub but most of us call so
This thing has the option for a recharchable battery, that is, it has a pushbutton that is not pushed by the battery cradle and maybe ment for recognising what goes in.

Edited June 10, 2020 by JaBaCaDaBra

[Lok24]

14 hours ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Crystall ball....

No, please note the difference between known and published.

14 hours ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

As for the Technic hub, yes the one that may not be called control+ hub but most of us call so

Yes, and that's the problem.
It has nothing to do with, it's just in the sets for which Control+ /which is no hardware but an app) offers advanced functions.

Its not only LEGO who did that confusion, it's the users in fora all over the world.
The reason is that the "LEGO names" are known since the parts are seperately available in the shop.
But the parts were in the market before in the sets.

Of course LEGO could have communicated better....

But there are still users who deny that you can use the technic motors or the technic hub outside the sets.
Which is possible since a very long time. 

The main problem ist the Powered Up App.
With Boost App(s) you have apps assigned to specific sets.
With Control+ App you have an app assigned to specific sets.
With Powered Up  App you have an app assigned to specific sets.

But the common app for all Powered up components is part of the Powered Up App as well.

It would have been much clearer to use the generic name "Powered Up App" only for that and set up another called i.E. "City App" for all the city sets.
And the other "Powered Up Programming App"

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Lok24

[Jetro]

2 hours ago, Lok24 said:

It would have been much clearer to use the generic name "Powered Up App" only for that and set up another called i.E. "City App" for all the city sets.
And the other "Powered Up Programming App"

You have a point, but that would also create more confusion. There is a SW set that uses the app and soon the Haunted House app should be added and who knows what else.

Naming the Hub "Hub" was pretty stupid: what hub? ah, the "Hub" hub

[Lok24]

23 minutes ago, Jetro said:

You have a point, but that would also create more confusion. There is a SW set that uses the app and soon the Haunted House app should be added and who knows what else.

 

You're right. Then "City" is the wrong name. But hope my idea is clear: split the programming (for all PU components) from the preconfigured functionality for specific sets.

What is wrong?

Boost-App for one set 1701 to learn programming - ok
Control+ for advanced function in technic - Sets - ok
Powered Up app for System Sets - ok

Strange:
The city- Sets in the Boost App
The Boost Druide with a seperate App

Programing for all not seperate

23 minutes ago, Jetro said:

Naming the Hub "Hub" was pretty stupid: what hub? ah, the "Hub" hub

Indeed, like naming fish "fish".

In fact it called itself Hub No. 4 in the beginning, I think now it resolves as "smart Hub" in the Sofware.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Lok24

[bogieman]

Looking today at the inventory of set 60198 on Bricks & Pieces on Lego's US website, they have Hub No. 4 listed for $45.29 and in stock compared to $49.99 on the Powered Up theme listing. Wonder why the difference?

[henrysunset]

Thanks to everyone for patiently explaining how all of these motors differ.  To celebrate today's #51515 LEGO Mindstorms Robot Inventor announcement, I created a new page on my website to learn more about all of the Powered Up components, and released a beta version of the labels discussed earlier in this thread.

LINK: brickarchitect.com/powered-up

 

The labels are designed for a Brother Label Printer, which prints on durable, glossy plastic label tape.

 

I decided to include physical dimensions on the labels, and tried to balance using the "official" name for each part, while standardizing the naming scheme.

 

As always, If you see an error in the labels, or on the website, let me know!

Sincerely,
—Tom

[Phil B]

@henrysunset Quick Q before I dive into a purchase to enable printing your excellent labels: Are these labels modifiable? If I want to include color information on the labels for example?

[Lok24]

I think there is some missunderstanding concerning motors.

What you call "End" LEGO calls sometimes "linear".
"Angular" is synonym for what you call "side". 
Only the two "blue" ones are "angular".

As far as I understand.

[henrysunset]

20 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

I think there is some missunderstanding concerning motors.

What you call "End" LEGO calls sometimes "linear".
"Angular" is synonym for what you call "side". 
Only the two "blue" ones are "angular".

As far as I understand.

I thought "Angular" referred to motors that can precisely describe current angle and programmatically rotate to a specific angle.  (If I'm mistaken, End/Side seems a lot less confusing than linear/angular)

 

39 minutes ago, Phil B said:

@henrysunset Quick Q before I dive into a purchase to enable printing your excellent labels: Are these labels modifiable? If I want to include color information on the labels for example?

The labels are black-and-white, but yes, you can change the text or images in the Brother p-touch application.  (Info on the various compatible printers here: https://brickarchitect.com/labels )

—Tom

Edited June 12, 2020 by henrysunset

[Phil B]

31 minutes ago, henrysunset said:

The labels are black-and-white, but yes, you can change the text or images in the Brother p-touch application.  (Info on the various compatible printers here: https://brickarchitect.com/labels )

—Tom

Thanks Tom - picked up a used PT-1230pc from EBay for $24 shipped, including AC Cord :) From your article it sounds like that's the one you use too.

[henrysunset]

19 minutes ago, Phil B said:

Thanks Tom - picked up a used PT-1230pc from EBay for $24 shipped, including AC Cord :) From your article it sounds like that's the one you use too.

Yup, that's the one I use most.  (I also have a Cube Plus, but it isn't meaningfully better).

[Mr Hobbles]

So, switching topics slightly - the new Mindstorms set was announced this morning. It's basically SPIKE Prime, but with a different number of motors and sensors.

SPIKE Prime - 2x medium angular motors (teal), 1x large angular motor (teal), 1x distance sensor, 1x force sensor, 1x light sensor.
Mindstorms - 4x medium angular motors (light bley), 1x distance sensor, 1x sensor.

The interesting thing is that it's been pointed out to me that the SPIKE Prime app received an update last week, which adds support for the new Mindstorms motors. They also seem to have different LPF2 device ids!

I'm struggling to think why these motors need new device ids if the motor is functionally the same. Perhaps just so the UI can show the appropriate coloured motors in the SPIKE Prime/Mindstorms apps? Or is there a slight functional difference between the SPIKE Prime and Mindstorms motors?
 

 e[e.FlipperMediumMotor = 48] = "FlipperMediumMotor",
 e[e.FlipperLargeMotor = 49] = "FlipperLargeMotor",
 e[e.StoneGreyMediumMotor = 75] = "StoneGreyMediumMotor",
 e[e.StoneGreyLargeMotor = 76] = "StoneGreyLargeMotor"

 

[GianCann]

5 minutes ago, Mr Hobbles said:

I'm struggling to think why these motors need new device ids if the motor is functionally the same.

To lock down in City/Control+ Hub?

[Mr Hobbles]

41 minutes ago, GianCann said:

To lock down in City/Control+ Hub?

What do you mean?

[GianCann]

Sorry Nathan for my bad english :(

Prevent the (Mindostorms) motors from running on the City HUB?

[Mr Hobbles]

10 minutes ago, GianCann said:

Sorry Nathan for my bad english :(

Prevent the (Mindostorms) motors from running on the City HUB?

Not bad English at all, I just couldn't grok what you meant. :) 

I'm not sure why they'd want to do that? It seems their eventual aim is to have every motor/sensor supported on every hub on the Powered Up app.

I do wonder if its so they can show the correct coloured motor in a UI if necessary. I think this is the first device that has a different coloured equivalent? No other motor or sensor has different variations at the moment.

[GianCann]

1 minute ago, Mr Hobbles said:

I do wonder if its so they can show the correct coloured motor in a UI if necessary.

I don't find any other reasons to make differencing the same motor, with only different color case...

Otherwise, as I say, to NOT support this type of motor on specific HUB.

Yes, this not have a much sense... I know...

[kbalage]

I don't think it is related to any exclusion in any apps, the hardware is different (even if it's the color and the product family) so it gets a different ID. The Mindstorms rechargeable battery seems to have the exact same internals as the Spike Prime battery, still the Mindstorms one is called "Rechargeable Battery No. 6" and the Spike Prime variant is "Rechargeable Battery No. 2".

[Mr Hobbles]

31 minutes ago, kbalage said:

I don't think it is related to any exclusion in any apps, the hardware is different (even if it's the color and the product family) so it gets a different ID. The Mindstorms rechargeable battery seems to have the exact same internals as the Spike Prime battery, still the Mindstorms one is called "Rechargeable Battery No. 6" and the Spike Prime variant is "Rechargeable Battery No. 2".

I'm not referring to some kind of abstract product ID or name. They can call them whatever they like in that regard. :) However technically each device reports a device ID to the hub over the LPF2 wire protocol. This is a two byte number used by the various apps to determine what type of motor or sensor is attached to the port and what to do with it.

It's just curious that it reports a different ID for the same internal hardware functionality, as normally if you wanted the app to enable the same functionality for both motors, you'd just use the same ID. This would also enable them to allow the motor to be used with no software update required.

By making them different, the app needs to be updated to know that device ID 75 and 76 are Mindstorms motors and should be treated the same way as the SPIKE Prime ones. But it also means they can differentiate between the two, perhaps by making it appear correctly in grey or blue in the app.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Mr Hobbles

[Jetro]

4 hours ago, henrysunset said:

I thought "Angular" referred to motors that can precisely describe current angle and programmatically rotate to a specific angle.  (If I'm mistaken, End/Side seems a lot less confusing than linear/angular)

"Angular" means the output shaft is at an angle to the motor block. Linear means the output shaft is in line with the motor block.

The Control+ motors are "linear" but their rotation angle can be precisely controlled. The same is true for the Boost motor. 

[henrysunset]

12 minutes ago, Jetro said:

"Angular" means the output shaft is at an angle to the motor block. Linear means the output shaft is in line with the motor block.

Thx for clarifying.  I will update the labels accordingly.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

19 minutes ago, Jetro said:

Control+ motors

Sigh.

Control+ is an app