Gearboxes With New Orange Selector & 20z Clutch Gear

[Jack Bloomer]

10 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

You could do that, but I fear you would run into double engaged clutch gears during shifts. 30 degrees (a half shift) won't be enough to disengage the driving ring.

This is why i question it's even possible because with double engagement you effectively have an 8 speed transmission. But honestly considering the great minds on this form, @Didumos69, @Sariel, @BusterHaus, @Attika, and @allanp I think we can figure one out but I feel it will be one of the more complicated transmissions. 

[BusterHaus]

2 hours ago, allanp said:

It's technically possible with one rotary cam shifter as it only takes 60 degrees of rotation to change the state of a drive ring. However you would have to arrange 3 drive rings in a triangle around a central rotary cam shifter. I've not tried this myself as my parts are buried inside a Chiron. Doesn't sound like the easiest of challenges though. 

I built a small device to test this, the angle I found was roughly 45 degrees.  I'll take a video of it tonight.

A couple of days ago I also built the 3 rings in a triangle proof-of-concept. You can use it to make a 3 speed transmission, but @Didumos69 is right - you have two rings engaged during shifts if you add 3 more clutch gears.

Edit: Here is the 3 speed POC that I built:

Notes:

• Needs a 120 degree stepper
• A lot of bracing is required to make this resistant to torque, size increases considerably
• In my opinion this design isn't very useful, as you can make a 4 speed transmission in a smaller space and get one extra gear.

Edited July 13, 2018 by BusterHaus
Added picture

[1963maniac]

2 hours ago, allanp said:

It's technically possible with one rotary cam shifter as it only takes 60 degrees of rotation to change the state of a drive ring. However you would have to arrange 3 drive rings in a triangle around a central rotary cam shifter. I've not tried this myself as my parts are buried inside a Chiron. Doesn't sound like the easiest of challenges though. 

I'd like to see that done, very interesting.

[Attika]

3 hours ago, Jack Bloomer said:

This is why i question it's even possible because with double engagement you effectively have an 8 speed transmission. But honestly considering the great minds on this form, @Didumos69, @Sariel, @BusterHaus, @Attika, and @allanp I think we can figure one out but I feel it will be one of the more complicated transmissions. 

Without saying it is impossible my thought on the subject is quite pessimistic. The rotary catch has been designed to work on 90 degree basis, what means it can take 4 phase only. When I've built the centered gearbox with the 120 degree connectors, the engagement, disengagement wasn't really accurate due to the corrupted angle (120 instead of 90). Although it was working on the display model but I'm sure under stress (torque) it would show the signs of slipping. By the way it's a pleasure to see @BusterHaus using these connector too.  

The reason I still think it is possible: I can picture a type of gearbox where the gear changing involves not just turning the rotary catch, but changing the position of one of the axles around it. As I see it there is no other way to cheat the 4 phase nature of this new part. And even if it would've been built, I assume it's  practical value would still remain really low.

I hope someone will proove me wrong.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Attika

[Didumos69]

I fully agree @Attika. The rotary catch is designed for running through 4 90 degree positions. This is also why I don't think the rotary catch is as much of a game changer as has been suggested.

That being said, I do see some possibilities, for instance using the rotary catch to engage or disengage secondary control axles with rotary catches to control the gearbox.

Also, when it comes to making a 5+R or a 7+R, I think an approach that could work is to have two parallel gearboxes (not serial as in the Bugatti and in my tunnel transmission) and combine it with a gearbox selector. That way you could first run through the gears of a 4-speed and than through the gears of a 1+R or 3+R. It will be big though.

[Attika]

oops I don't know how could I mess up the numbers... I blame the busy week behind me. Corrected them above as of course I thought about 90's not 45's.  Speaking of 3+R and other reverse combined gearboxes: If there is a reverse gear there should be a neutral too. In case if we are chasing the realistic solution.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Attika

[1963maniac]

Didumos69, I was wondering what the gear ratios were for the Sequential 8-speed transmission tunnel? I'm just about done working on building instructions for that one.

[Didumos69]

6 hours ago, 1963maniac said:

Didumos69, I was wondering what the gear ratios were for the Sequential 8-speed transmission tunnel? I'm just about done working on building instructions for that one.

The ratios of the primary gearbox are: 1:1, 5:4, 5:3, 25:12 and the ratios of the secondary (low-high) gearbox are: 1:1, 25:9. Together that makes: 1:1, 5:4, 5:3, 25:12, 25:9, 125:36, 125:27, 625:108, or 1, 1.25, 1.67, 2.08, 2.78, 3.47, 4.63 and 5.79.

The overal in-out ratios can be easily changed though. The primary gearbox and the secondary gearbox are connected with a 16-16 gear mesh in the center of the gearbox. This could be changed to a 20-12 or 12-20 mesh, which would multiply all speed ratios by 20:12 or 12:20 respectively.

[Hrafn]

21 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

@Attika.

 

Also, when it comes to making a 5+R or a 7+R, I think an approach that could work is to have two parallel gearboxes (not serial as in the Bugatti and in my tunnel transmission) and combine it with a gearbox selector. That way you could first run through the gears of a 4-speed and than through the gears of a 1+R or 3+R. It will be big though.

I have a sequential 7+R dual-clutch design mostly completely designed, based on your 4-speed designs, but given other commitments I don't know when I will be able to finish and post it ?

[Jack Bloomer]

@Didumos69 I was able to add your 90 shifter with lever, the really compact one, to the non centered 4 speed gearbox and I’m pleased to say that it works flawlessly with the new rotary catch. 

[BusterHaus]

This test was made to determine the angle at which part 35188 disengages the gear. Result: approximately 45 degrees in each direction.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by BusterHaus

[1963maniac]

Didumos69 that was an impressive idea and it is even a more impressive result. It works very well and being long and narrow, it ought to be easier to incorporate it  into a vehicle. WELL DONE!!

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by 1963maniac
update

[Jack Bloomer]

@1963maniac what software did you use to make your instructions 

[Didumos69]

7 hours ago, 1963maniac said:

Didumos69 that was an impressive idea and it is even a more impressive result. It works very well and being long and narrow, it ought to be easier to incorporate it  into a vehicle. WELL DONE!!

Here are building instructions for "Didumos69' Sequential 8 Speed Transmission Tunnel with Rotary Catches and 8-1 Gearblock": https://bricksafe.com/files/1963maniac/Didumos69 Sequential 8-speed transmission tunnel with rotary catches and 8-to-1 gearblock.pdf

Great! If you're okay with it, I will use these instructions to put this one on Rebrickable, giving you credits for the instructions of course. I followed the instruction steps and everything seems clear to me. Only the way the silicon bands are wrapped (with a cross) is not completely clear. Perhaps an inset with a real photo would help? This is the best shot I have.

On 7/14/2018 at 4:24 PM, Hrafn said:

I have a sequential 7+R dual-clutch design mostly completely designed, based on your 4-speed designs, but given other commitments I don't know when I will be able to finish and post it ?

Could you show us a screen-shot of the unfinished work. You're making me curious.

On 7/15/2018 at 6:17 PM, Jack Bloomer said:

@Didumos69 I was able to add your 90 shifter with lever, the really compact one, to the non centered 4 speed gearbox and I’m pleased to say that it works flawlessly with the new rotary catch.

Could you make a photo or video. Would love to see it.

On 7/15/2018 at 11:41 PM, BusterHaus said:

This test was made to determine the angle at which part 35188 disengages the gear. Result: approximately 45 degrees in each direction.

In your video it appears you need slightly more than 45 degrees to disengage, which would mean there is a small chance of having double engaged gears. However, my experience from playing with 4-speed gearboxes is that this really doesn't happen.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Didumos69

[1963maniac]

4 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

Great! If you're okay with it, I will use these instructions to put this one on Rebrickable, giving you credits for the instructions of course. I followed the instruction steps and everything seems clear to me. Only the way the silicon bands are wrapped (with a cross) is not completely clear. Perhaps an inset with a real photo would help? This is the best shot I have.

Didumos69, I'll put this photo in and re-upload it to bricksafe and repost it here.  Jack Bloomer, I use Bricklink's "Stud.io" to convert LDD files to LDRAW and I also Render with Stud.io. With a digital LDRAW file I use MLCAD to put the parts in the right order and add steps and rotations etc. where necessary. Then I use LPUB3D to layout the pages and PDF the file as well. I would highly recommend this process. It is the best thing out there, it's free, but it has a learning curve that's worth the effort. I like the result I get doing it this way.

 

[1963maniac]

Didumos69, Thanks for the photo. That was needed.  Here is the finished file: https://bricksafe.com/files/1963maniac/Didumos69 Sequential 8-speed Transmission Tunnel with 8 to 1 GearblockLPUB.pdf I also (finally) figured out how to change the information at the bottom of each page. It should be good now.

Didumos69, The file has changed. It now has correctly drawn rubber bands. The pictures (rendered in Stud.io) do not correctly render them. I'd be happy to change it, if you supply a picture. Also, you might want to change it anywhere else you posted it.

I re-worked the building instructions. I built it again and decided to make the BI better.  

Edited November 28, 2018 by 1963maniac
update ; the BI is reworked

[Didumos69]

7 hours ago, 1963maniac said:

Didumos69, Thanks for the photo. That was needed.  Here is the finished file: https://bricksafe.com/files/1963maniac/Didumos Sequential 8-speed transmission tunnel with rotary catches and 8-to- 1 gearblock LPUB.pdf  I also (finally) figured out how to change the information at the bottom of each page. It should be good now.

In step 5 a blue 3L pin is installed, but I think it's not needed. I don't think it was in my LXF-file. Would be nice if you could remove, but if it's too much hassle than we leave it like this.

[jovel]

My 8 speed gearbox.

It uses the both the old ( as in the Porsche ) as the new gear selecters.

 

[Jack Bloomer]

Nvm picture won’t post

Edited July 19, 2018 by Jack Bloomer

[1963maniac]

Didumos I just uploaded the revised BI for the Sequential 8 speed Transmission Tunnel with Rotary catches and 8 - 1 Gearblock. Unfortumately those rotary catches still aren't showing in the PLI and the BOM. Last night I rediscovered (in a round about way) the Chassis for the Rugged Supercar. I had been wanting to build something with a shifter like Crowkillers "Outlaw". I had come across Charbel's 1:8 modular supercar chassis which led to a search for Didumos stepper and ultimately to Diederik Van Leeuwen before Rugged Supercar Chassis. I am building it right now. But first I'll give you a challenge. Make a modification of a 2X4 sequential gearbox for it, keeping the same style shifter.

[pagicence]

9 hours ago, 1963maniac said:

But first I'll give you a challenge. Make a modification of a 2X4 sequential gearbox for it, keeping the same style shifter.

I agree with the challenge. We need a good gearbox that can fit in the floor (be on the bottom), 2 rows high. Because your 4-speed sequential with diff is flawless. While you are at it throw a 6-speed in there as well.

[Hrafn]

Here is my proof of concept of a 7+R dual clutch gearbox.  It uses two standard 4 speed gearboxes (1, 1.66..., 3, 5), one multiplied by 20/14.  The structure is garbage and needs to be overhauled to improve strength and reduce friction, and it needs 2 90 degree limiters, a 180 degree limiter, and two stops to prevent the sub gearbox rotary drums from going from gear 4 to gear 1.  And of course it needs a 2L liftarm with a towball in it so the central control axle can trigger the knob wheels alternately as it moves 180 degrees for each gear shift. Ignore the white thin L shaped liftarms, they are holding the control axles steady for a test.  Still, the gear arrangement should be correct.
Green is input, white is output.  The axle with the 14z gears is 4L.  I would love to see any improvements you guys can make, especially since my Lego time is very limited at the moment.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Hrafn

[Didumos69]

On 7/21/2018 at 2:08 PM, 1963maniac said:

Didumos I just uploaded the revised BI for the Sequential 8 speed Transmission Tunnel with Rotary catches and 8 - 1 Gearblock. Unfortumately those rotary catches still aren't showing in the PLI and the BOM.

Thank you very much! It's on rebrickable now.

On 7/21/2018 at 2:08 PM, 1963maniac said:

Make a modification of a 2X4 sequential gearbox for it, keeping the same style shifter.

On 7/22/2018 at 12:13 AM, pagicence said:

I agree with the challenge. We need a good gearbox that can fit in the floor (be on the bottom), 2 rows high. Because your 4-speed sequential with diff is flawless. While you are at it throw a 6-speed in there as well.

I have been thinking about putting a more advanced gearbox (using the new parts) in my rugged supercar too, but I fear I will only start working on a serious project somewhere in October or November.

7 hours ago, Hrafn said:

Here is my proof of concept of a 7+R dual clutch gearbox.  It uses two standard 4 speed gearboxes (1, 1.66..., 3, 5), one multiplied by 20/14.  The structure is garbage and needs to be overhauled to improve strength and reduce friction, and it needs 2 90 degree limiters, a 180 degree limiter, and two stops to prevent the sub gearbox rotary drums from going from gear 4 to gear 1.  And of course it needs a 2L liftarm with a towball in it so the central control axle can trigger the knob wheels alternately as it moves 180 degrees for each gear shift. Ignore the white thin L shaped liftarms, they are holding the control axles steady for a test.  Still, the gear arrangement should be correct.
Green is input, white is output.  The axle with the 14z gears is 4L.  I would love to see any improvements you guys can make, especially since my Lego time is very limited at the moment.

I find it hard to grasp what is going on here. I will study it later. Do you have a digital design?

Edited July 23, 2018 by Didumos69

[Hrafn]

17 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

I find it hard to grasp what is going on here. I will study it later. Do you have a digital design?

I don't.  There are two layers of gears.  The top picture shows the underside.  The green input connects to the 24z and 16z, then that axle ends (poorly supported by the black 3x5 L liftarm).  The 16 on the input drives half the gray clutch gears, while the 24 drives the 8 on top, which connects to a 16 driving the other half of gray clutch gears.  The red clutch gears are all idlers.  Each 4 speed half gearbox sends its output to one side of the final pair of clutch gears. In the second picture, which shows the top, the black L liftarms partly obscure the orange rotary drums that drive the half gearboxes.  Does that help?

 

I may be able to upload more photos later, hopefully tonight.  I also redesigned the whole thing last night on paper (my high tech design tool is graph paper) but can't make any promises that I will get to build it soon - definitely not before mid week, probably later.

 

Also, does anyone have a good 180 degree limiter design?  I have ideas for finishing the rest of my gearbox but that part I don't yet have any ideas for.

 

Edit: more photos are on Flickr now.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/141598430@N08/

Further edit: now I see there is a superfluous red idler gear near reverse gear. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Hrafn

[BusterHaus]

13 hours ago, Hrafn said:

Also, does anyone have a good 180 degree limiter design?  I have ideas for finishing the rest of my gearbox but that part I don't yet have any ideas for.

The quick and dirty way to do it is a 24-12 gear combination on the output of a 90 degree shifter. I haven't built it yet, so I don't know if it will actually work flawlessly, as the slack between the 24-12 gears may affect shifting performance.