Unauthorized selling of instructions for MOCs

[Toastie]

Dear All,

I fully understand the outrage - and I fully appreciate what is happening here. However, I also have pictures in my head of folks sitting with baskets full of popcorn and other stuff and watching the story to unfold - and see this guy drown. Almost live. Tenderlok couldn't post as fast as things were happening. It was stupid what this guy has done, it was unrightful. Bad. And then - this could be end of the story.

BUT: Tenderlok was asking the question:

8 hours ago, Tenderlok said:

Dear fellow LEGO train fans,

[…]

what is your opinion on other people using your models commercially?

Kind regards,
Sven

And there I must say things become far less full forward - at least for me.

When I post "stuff" - MODs, MOCs, programs, ideas, electronics, proposals, comments, etc. in an "open environment" - open as in the unprotected internet world - I deliberately do so. Because I have personally decided to do so. And I personally know that there are more than 7.6 Billion people out there of which about 50% in some way or the other have access to the internet. Of which a meaningless small number do have interest in LEGO for whatever reason, but meaningless low is still a very big number compared to 7.6 Billion. Knowing that, there are for sure bad guys among these. And they don't care about "giving credit". Whole companies (and don't blame just the Chinese, there are so many other examples) do exactly that. All over the world. Which does not mean that I don't get mad about that, in contrast.

So this is my take on this: I put whatever piece of intellectual property on public access - and I don't >care< what happens. None what so ever. I do >hope< thought that the truly interested may learn, reply, change for the better, have new ideas, showing them for free. And I believe most folks do. I simply do not care about someone picking-up my stuff and turn that into profit. In contrast: It is really nice to see that happen because I did not want to do that - make profit - otherwise I wouldn't have posted it in the open internet.

All I am saying is: It was my choice to do so.

All the very best and only for the best.

Sven, I fully understand your feelings to make that absolutely sure. And I am very happy that you shared this on EB. Another very good reason to simply enjoy and breathe the spirit of most of our fellow members here. I am proud to be a member of EB.

All the very best,
Thorsten    

[dr_spock]

If you find your property is being used without permission on YouTube, you can submit an infringement form.   https://www.youtube.com/yt/about/copyright/#support-and-troubleshooting

 

[JEB314 (James)]

3 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

If you find your property is being used without permission on YouTube, you can submit an infringement form.   https://www.youtube.com/yt/about/copyright/#support-and-troubleshooting

 

I hope it doesn't have to end up with this, I have been trying to avoid this scenario happening...

I also hope the private strategy between myself and Jim (that I have meticulously constructed) is followed as it should be the best overall situation for everyone concerned...

This is taking up a decent amount of my time, but I feel its worth it for the good of the community as a whole.

[Murdoch17]

Well, I for one have given away the models as LDD files to help people get a understanding of how the trains work, as in gear drives, pistons, swiveling bogies, and so on... I don't think I'm anything near as good a designer as some of the people above, but I have been asked about selling them in the distant past. However, as I mostly am inspired by other designers "free" work or small parts / areas of paid models (such as @SavaTheAggie's basic idea of a 3 wheel sliding truck as used on his MRS-1 diesel), and some of these models can have at least 5 peoples names attached in some cases (if I wanted to get very specific about techniques), my rational conclusion is I have no right to charge for something I was given free.

This is why I don't sell any of my models...

(I hope this makes sense, as I'm kinda tired right now and my mind is running a bit faster than my fingers)

[koalayummies]

Nice, they got me too. Luckily I only share LXFs of my worst work (which it all is! ) so the views are so insignificant that they didn't profit hardly at all but I'm sure everyone affected agrees that it's really cool seeing other people be like "nice model, awesome, I will build that, great work" and the person in question replying to those compliments without clarifying that they didn't actually design them.

The selling of OP and other's creations and ideas instructions without permission is intellectual property theft and if they're a member on here they should be identified (they sort of are at the moment but not very clearly).

They should immediately cease and desist, remove all creative content that is not their own from everywhere they're selling it, they should compensate all the money generated both from the selling of instructions and any youtube viewership revenue to the individuals who they were profiting off of and possibly further steps taken depending on their response if they ever issue one. In an ideal world of course.

They hit a lot of really great builders, so many of these MOCs are instantly recognizable. There are ads showing on their videos and based on the number of videos and views on youtube they could have been making some decent cash.

[JEB314 (James)]

8 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

and the person in question replying to those compliments without clarifying that they didn't actually design them.

That aspect annoys me...

10 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

The selling of OP and other's creations and ideas instructions without permission is intellectual property theft 

Exactly!

22 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

and if they're a member on here they should be identified (they sort of are at the moment but not very clearly).

But should he really be called out? Not sure that will help progress...

13 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

immediately cease and desist, remove all creative content that is not their own from everywhere they're selling it, 

This has been explained to him, via message.

17 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

They hit a lot of really great builders, so many of these MOCs are instantly recognizable.

If only that was enough for people to realise...

 

Overall, I hope things turn out ok and the individual does the right thing.

From what I can tell he is quite young and has made mistakes...

As he's said to me:

"I did something I love in a the wrong way and I admit any wrongdoing."

So give the guy a chance to fix this, he shouldn't be alienated at a time like this.

Regards,

James

[Trekkie99]

I've been following this topic lightly, and am glad to hear that the videos have been removed. 

@Tenderlok, so sorry to hear some one was selling instructions of your models. Despicable.

@JEB314 (James), big props to you man for taking the initiative on this whole situation. Well done.

 

5 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

How about you explain it to your fellow EB forum members on here first?

 

I can’t imagine what legitimate reason you could have had..

Agreed. On both points.

[koalayummies]

5 hours ago, JEB314 (James) said:

Overall, I hope things turn out ok and the individual does the right thing.

[snip]

So give the guy a chance to fix this, he shouldn't be alienated at a time like this.

By do the right thing does that mean: they will take down all of the videos containing content that wasn't voluntarily submitted by "____ date and time" and pay out any revenue generated via the youtube dissemination and exhibition of said involuntarily displayed content to all parties involved by "____ date and time", in addition to informing their 13,000+ followers and unregistered viewers that not all of the uploaded content was voluntarily submitted but rather taken and displayed without permission nor credit given and finally issue a public apology? Just want to make sure there's consistency in what right thing means in this context.

In their comments they were called out on this several months ago and got defensive, they've really already had at least one chance before.

They posted a question to their followers asking if they should continue the channel and saying that they're receiving a lot of 'hate'; that was 7 hours ago (and 7 hours after saying they would be explaining all of this) and those that commented are completely unaware and still think that all of the content displayed is either voluntarily submitted or their own, except for one.

Hit an advertisement on every video and the number of videos and view totals indicate it would be a lucrative channel if it were set up as such (considering no work was done on their part). Nearly 10,000,000 total views. If they are going to continue going forward they need to make the channel non-profit if it isn't already (and no I won't believe that it was non-profit) and if it wasn't then something must be done with that money to make it right. Everyone must be held accountable for their actions.

Own up. Apologize. Explain that [whatever percentage of] the content wasn't theirs nor voluntarily submitted, explain and prove the channels financial status and what will be done going forward as soon as possible.

4 hours ago, LegoMonorailFan said:

I've been following this topic lightly, and am glad to hear that the videos have been removed.

There are still over 300 MOC instruction videos up on their channel as of posting this with many that are absolutely not theirs.

--

Since my mediocre police car is up there this is only fitting. Might as well MOC the situation using one of the MOCs in question.

"We now go live to that situation developing in Train Tech. Paula, what do you have for us?"

Edited May 24, 2018 by koalayummies

[sed6]

15 hours ago, supertruper1988 said:

I see stuff from @Murdoch17 and @sed6 on this channel as well. 

There is also a lot of older LDD Gallery items on here. 

Also @imvanya is in here. 

Oh and @ryantaggart's wonderful Modular Contruction site is on there. 

We should report these videos and if it is your MOC then submit a DCMA take down notice. 

Thanks for the heads up! I share my creations here and on brickshelf for others to enjoy, FREE OF CHARGE.

8 hours ago, dr_spock said:

If you find your property is being used without permission on YouTube, you can submit an infringement form.   https://www.youtube.com/yt/about/copyright/#support-and-troubleshooting

 

Thanks for this too! I've already filled out a DMCA complaint against him for one of my creations. I'm going looking for others now.

6 hours ago, JEB314 (James) said:

So give the guy a chance to fix this, he shouldn't be alienated at a time like this.

Regards,

James

Sorry, but nonsense! I knew he was trouble from his very first post. He's only on this forum to promote himself and his YouTube channel and to make money, off other peoples creations. 

[sed6]

I found a second one of my creations on his YouTube page. I filled out another complaint against him. YouTube says they will remove the content and replace it with a placeholder that gives me credit for my stolen work. I wonder how quickly that will happen? I wonder if Jimpricked will read this thread and delete the video first? I'm going to post link to both below, just so I have them and we can see what happens. 

Edit to add: has anyone posted this in the other forums? I see a lot of cars and trucks and city stuff on his channel also. Have any Mods addressed this? I think he deserves a perma ban. Stealing members creations and selling them for profit simply MUST be against the rules?!?!? The guy has created no useful content and we just don't need his type around here. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by sed6

[zux]

@JEB314 (James) I would appreciate you starting a generic post about such issue and share your knowledge of the ways to deal with it.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of karma from AFOL community.

[ColletArrow]

I was going to post yesterday, but decided against. Having read @Toastie's well-written reply above, I think I will.

The general issue of stealing other's video work for "profit" (watches, ad revenue etc)(on whatever platform) is an ongoing one on the internet, and it's a difficult one to deal with. There will, unfortunately, always be people who see the opportunity. It's being continuously addressed in the Technic sub-forum;

The consensus there seems to be to address each new "freebooter" as they arise. This tactic is more for preventing "download-and-upload someone else's video" though, something YouTube will deal with (albeit rather slowly I believe).

Stealing LDD files and instructions is a separate matter to outright stealing videos. Certain other companies have been known to release sets of impressive MOCs, without permission. Again, there's already a thread on it.

It's a shame the most commonly trod route is to remove shared files and instructions, as many people will find inspiration and learn techniques from other's creations. Unfortunately, there are few other options. For instructions, it should be possible to keep them on paper or digitally "watermark" them, but no such options exist for LDD files to my knowledge.
(Incidentally, the "instructions" produced by LDD are far more comical than helpful. I've tried following them for my own small MOCs, ones I know how to build anyway, to compare. Often, it shows physically impossible connections, especially in technic models. Don't use them.)
Personally, I have a couple of files available on Bricksafe. However, they're only of a preliminary replica of 60198 (and hence soon to go out of date), and the folders are "link only" so less likely to be found. And I'm glad I did share it; a couple of people have been able to bring my work to real bricks, something I can't and probably won't do. I don't particularly mind if they get "stolen", as the models weren't my idea in the first place really. If I do release a proper MOC in the summer, complete with LDD file and instructions (unlikely, but still), I think I'd still want to share them for free. You just have to keep an eye out, and hope the community here does the same. The actions of a few shouldn't be able to stop us sharing and learning techniques and skills in the hobby we enjoy.

For this and other specific cases, I suggest raising a new topic somewhere like Community or General; it may help given not all of the models in question are train-related. Alternatively, we could ask a mod to move this topic. What does everyone else feel about this?
A second, more general approach to opinions and resolutions to the issue at large may be useful too, as @zux has suggested above.

I hope that the @JEB314 (James), the member in question and all other creators can resolve this issue as quickly and peacefully as possible, and that everyone will remain part of this excellent community.

Overall, it's a long-standing, ongoing issue with no obvious solution. Only now has it properly hit here.

[Sven J]

33 minutes ago, ColletArrow said:

It's a shame the most commonly trod route is to remove shared files and instructions, as many people will find inspiration and learn techniques from other's creations. [...]
The actions of a few shouldn't be able to stop us sharing and learning techniques and skills in the hobby we enjoy.

 

That's of course right. And that's why I will still be happy to share the files, though only upon request (PM or post) from now on. I hope to retain a bit more control over the files' usage that way.

[JEB314 (James)]

I stayed up late trying to sort this and eventually went to bed. I'm now ready to get back to it...

Today I am incredibly disappointed by @Jimbricked...

It seems he isn't listening, he seems infact to be saying one thing, doing another...

I'm beyond frustrated with this situation, so this is closer to the line that we as community should take:

12 hours ago, dr_spock said:

If you find your property is being used without permission on YouTube, you can submit an infringement form.   https://www.youtube.com/yt/about/copyright/#support-and-troubleshooting

 

Therefore, I am going to post in here and also create a thread in general.

Here is his youtube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCGzMhduUjLlnpBRHTaOJ8Aw

(Hope the link works, if not, tell me and I'll correct it, I'm doing this fast.)

This is not to open the door to giving him 'hate', this is a group approach to solve this, and I need help as I am only one man.

In terms of consequences, this will now be in a far less beneficial light for @Jimbricked, because of his lack of action.

He is now likely going to have to remove videos on people asking, or otherwise get an awful lot of copyright strikes...

-

Right, the plan:

1. Go on his channel.

2. Look though all his videos, and:

(a) If they're your LDD designs, contact him and ask him to delete them, as it doesn't look like he's going to be contacting you anytime soon...

If he doesn't respond, fill out the infringement form on Youtube.

(b) If you directly know who the LDD design originally belongs to, could you please find contact details for the designer in question, and pop them a message explaining the stolen material is monetized and also has instructions being sold by Jimbricked.

From there the designer needs ask him to delete them, and again, if he doesn't respond, they should fill out the infringement form on Youtube.

-

Therefore, we have legally forfilled the correct approach, by asking first, then if no response, using Youtube's tools to deal with it.

-

Now @Jimbricked, as you may know, if too many people send copyright strikes on your channel, Youtube is within their rights to terminate your channel...

I recommend you cooperate with this or Youtube could in a sense 'slap the book at you' and you'll be left with no channel at all. I have seen this happen.

-

The other approach which could save everyone time would be to delete every piece of content (video) in which you have used LDD files without permission.

That would leave you with the designs you have created entirely yourself, and the possibility of being able to continue uploading your designs in video form to Youtube.

In this scenario, you can sell your own designs, but not those belonging to others as well...

-

I hope I have made myself abundantly clear...

Regards,

James

-

P.S. Any questions please ask.

Edited May 24, 2018 by JEB314 (James)
Grammatical error.

[Sven J]

1 hour ago, JEB314 (James) said:

I stayed up late trying to sort this and eventually went to bed. I'm now ready to get back to it.

 

James, thank you so much for this. Your commitment cannot be praised enough.

1 hour ago, JEB314 (James) said:

(b) If you directly know who the LDD design originally belongs to, could you please find contact details for the designer in question, and pop them a message explaining the stolen material is monetized and also has instructions being sold by Jimbricked.

From there the designer needs ask him to delete them, and again, if he doesn't respond, they should fill out the infringement form on Youtube.

There seem to be at least two train MOCs by @James Mathis. And several Russian train MOCs by Pavlo, which were presented here (with designer's permission) by @Nemo57. Nemo57, can you contact Pavlo with this issue?

Edit: Mentioned videos have been removed.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Tenderlok

[JEB314 (James)]

Topic created:

 

Ok people, good progress is being made:

2 minutes ago, Jimbricked said:

Hi James,

As for now, I am putting all videos that are not my own MOCS on private until I don't or do get permission. 

I am trying to get every creators email, as I don't think you can send attachments through messaging.

I have a PDF agreement form where the creators can sign to give me permission to sell instructions and use their builds.

I have permission from a creator M7Rock who has willingly signed the form saying I have permission to use his content and sell instructions for his builds. 

1. This means, videos such as the polar express and Amtrak trains get to stay up, and a couple others.

I hope I am going about this the right way, with terrific guidance by you guys.

-Jim

JIMBRICKED

Thanks

James

[Capparezza]

I am utterly distraught that it has even come so far. Why do people think that just because something is available for free on the Internet they can do with it what they want or even sell it? This is something that goes completely against the conventions I have been brought up with. Is this new generation really that far apart from common sense and decency? Or is it just that the public in general is shifting more and more to monetary beliefs instead of virtues?

Even if I don't have anything up in the "Intarwebz" that someone could grab and press a Shilling out of, this leaves me very worried about the future...

*shakes head*

[MAB]

He is also breaking the rules at LEGO IDEAS. One of their rules is ...

You MAY NOT SELL ANYTHING related to your project.

You may share photos and building instructions free of charge on your own website and online profiles. However you may not sell building instructions, custom kits, or anything related to your project. We will remove projects without notice if we learn you are commercializing content submitted to LEGO Ideas.

On youtube he is advertising the sale of instructions for both the casino and UP house that he has entered at IDEAS:

https://ideas.lego.com/profile/Jimbricked/projects#search/s:most_recent&scroll=399

 

 

[Hod Carrier]

2 hours ago, JEB314 (James) said:

Ok people, good progress is being made:

I’ve been following this thread with a sense of dismay but have refrained from commenting until now.

While I thank you for taking this matter on and leading on bringing about a negotiated solution, I cannot bring myself to agree with your sentiment. I would only say that limited progress has been made in explaining to Jim the importance of respecting other people’s IP, but there is still a rather large elephant in the room.

What alarms me is that someone has taken IP belonging to other people and monetised it for their own gain. While this may not be technically illegal (although it would be interesting to know the terms of the permissions he has sought), it strikes me as being highly immoral.

If a designer wishes to sell instructions or .lxf files for their creations that is their decision and no-one else’s. They set the price depending on what value they place on it and the amount of time and effort invested, and therefore they benefit. If they choose to host or promote their files elsewhere this must be negotiated and terms, including any revenue share, agreed. It should never be implied that allowing free access to content online means the owner is happy for it to be harvested and monetised without their knowledge or permission. These processes should always be lead by the designer.

I’m sorry to have to say these things because I support the community ethos that applies here, but I’m not really happy with this situation

[Sven J]

@Hod Carrier, I fully agree with your statement.

Apparently to address this issue, Jimbricked now has this note on his channel:

So if a MOC designer signs the mentioned agreement form, this should be ok.
However, for me there's still the question why anyone should pay for files which their designers had made available for free...

[Jimbricked]

Guys, 

I know I messed up featuring things without permission and not giving proper credit. I totally assume responsibility. I wasn't being considerate enough, and thanks to you guys, I finally have a way to make this all right. 

People are pissed off at me, hate me, and I get it. I took down EVERY VIDEO that I had NO PERMISSION TO USE. You'll never see them again, and now I know what is considered right and wrong.

I will keep my own builds up and continue to feature my own stuff and permission to use others as well. 

I apologize

-Jim

JIMBRICKED

 

[Carefree_Dude]

4 minutes ago, Jimbricked said:

Guys, 

I know I messed up featuring things without permission and not giving proper credit. I totally assume responsibility. I wasn't being considerate enough, and thanks to you guys, I finally have a way to make this all right. 

People are pissed off at me, hate me, and I get it. I took down EVERY VIDEO that I had NO PERMISSION TO USE. You'll never see them again, and now I know what is considered right and wrong.

I will keep my own builds up and continue to feature my own stuff and permission to use others as well. 

I apologize

-Jim

JIMBRICKED

 

What about the money you've made off selling the intellectual property of others?

[Jimbricked]

Just now, Goldenmasamune said:

What about the money you've made off selling the intellectual property of others?

That's the problem

People act like I sell millions of copies. 

I get lucky if I get an email a week, and if that, someone buys and goes through with it.

Thanks Goodness, most of them are for ones I have permission for from M7Rock, as his Polar Express seems to sell well.

That's why I have barely said anything on the Instruction topic as I have no real basis to go off of there.

-Jim

JIMBRICKED

[JEB314 (James)]

Update, so as to keep people in the loop: 

@Brother From Another Brick is going to do an interview on his Youtube channel with @Jimbricked. 

[MAB]

And a poll about deleting his youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/user/Masterchef1376/community