Venice Simplon Orient Express

[ElectroDiva]

I’ve started working on a MOC of this beauty:

 

@Haddock51 (and perhaps some others too) seem to have the same idea so let’s discuss some options :)

 

As as far as I see it, there are a number of things to consider - firstly to go with a modern locomotive (as used today) or a historic steam locomotive. Personally I would much rather go down the steam route but am struggling to find good pictures of steam locomotives that have been used with this service.

 

Secondly - what color scheme to go with. The carriages seem to have two configurations - blue with cream/white windows and a white roof or blue with blue windows and a white roof. I’ve opted for the latter.

 

Thirdly - to use custom printed decals or try to approximate the look with Lego pieces. I think I’d like to use custom printed decals but wouldn’t know where to get these.

 

Finally - what scale to use - 6 wide or 8 wide. I’m personally leaning towards 8 wide by 48 studs long to allow a decent level of detail.

[bombcar]

I might suggest 7 stud - it's a bit trickier to build (can't use standard train plates) but allows for more detail than 6 wide without the size of 8. Really depends on if you're building to display or building to run, in my opinion.

The colors in that picture seem to make the cars look green to me, which would be green/white.

I agree a steam locomotive will look better - but perhaps a modern locomotive would be a starting point?

[Haddock51]

ElectroDiva, you just made an excellent choice. This indeed is a very beautiful train with many challenges, particularly if you look at it from a Lego perspective.

These pictures I found in a special edition "125 Jahre Orient-Express" of the Eisenbahn Journal (2/2008):

 

The steam engines on this picture are Baureihe 01.

 

 W.r.t. to your considerations:

I will build Holger Matthes BR 10 steam locomotive sometimes this fall. As a result, I will have an EN locomotive left that I will use for the Orient Express, at least to start with. On the last page of this journal, I found the following Märklin advertisement showing a steam locomotive in blue:

I will most likely go for both colour schemes, entirely dark blue and dark blue with cream. I guess the colour combinations are related to different types of coaches.

Yes, I will also go for custom printed decals. Search in Wikipedia for "Compagnie Internationale des Wagons Lits" and you will find some excellent picrtures for the logo which is very typical. And then there is this long text "COMPAGNIE INTERNATIONALE DES WAGONS LITS ET DES GRANDS TRAINS EUROPÉENS". That will be a challenge ....

About the scale. When building Holger Matthes Vintage train, I learned that 7 studs is an almost perfect - however somewhat tricky - size for trains. It allows you a decent level of details and a good proportionality when it comes to width and wheels.

And finally the windows! Have a look at this beautuful picture:

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Haddock51

[Redimus]

My 7 wide Pullmans would make a good basis for those coaches (they're basically the British version of the same idea anyway).

If you want the LDDs, lemme know.

Edited May 10, 2018 by JopieK
Can you put the picture behind a link or resize it? Thanks!

[Haddock51]

22 minutes ago, Redimus said:

If you want the LDDs, lemme know.

I would like to have a look at your Pullmans. Interesting to see how you solved the challenge with oval windows.

[ElectroDiva]

That would be great @Redimus - those are great looking coaches

 

Thanks for the pictures @Haddock51. I like the look of that blue steam locomotive! Does anyone know what type that is?

 

With respect to the colour scheme - I managed to get a job lot of standard blue train windows and doors a while back so I think I’m going to go with that rather than dark blue (since you can’t get them in dark blue).

 

@haddock51 - if you’re going to go with dark blue - what will you do for the windows and doors? Window blocks fixed directly to the bricks and custom built doors?

 

With respect to the width - what’s the issue with 8 wide? Would that cause any particular issues?

Edited May 7, 2018 by ElectroDiva

[Haddock51]

58 minutes ago, ElectroDiva said:

 I like the look of that blue steam locomotive! Does anyone know what type that is?

With respect to the width - what’s the issue with 8 wide? Would that cause any particular issues?

According to Märklin, the blue steam engine is Series IVh of the Grossherzogliche Badische Staatseisenbahn, Bauart 2'C1'h4v. These steam engines were built starting 1918.

W.r.t. to width and scale, I very much share Holger Matthes comments in his Lego Trains Book (see pages 75 - 79) on 6-, 7- and 8-wide scales:

With 8-wide, you can achieve better scale fidelity than 6- and 7-wide. However, the extra width has a corresponding disadvantage, i.e. extra length (typically at least 50 studs long). Despite the extra length, 7- and 8-wide coaches have the same number of axles, so each axle on an 8-wide train holds more weight which can lead to problems for Lego train motors (in particular PF, my comment) to move all this weight at a reasonable speed, especially around curves and through switches. And the overhang problem is even worse with 8-wide trains than it is for 7-wide trains, risking collisions with buildings and other lineside features close to the track. Normal train wheels look small on 8-wide trains and spoil the overall impression of the model due to their disproportional scale. Using the larger spoked  wheels from steam engines is not a convincing solution.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Haddock51

[CrispyBassist]

13 minutes ago, Haddock51 said:

With 8-wide, you can achieve better scale fidelity than 6- and 7-wide. However, the extra width has a corresponding disadvantage, i.e. extra length (typically at least 50 studs long). Despite the extra length, 7- and 8-wide coaches have the same number of axles, so each axle on an 8-wide train holds more weight which can lead to problems for Lego train motors (in particular PF, my comment) to move all this weight at a reasonable speed, especially around curves and through switches. And the overhang problem is even worse with 8-wide trains than it is for 7-wide trains, risking collisions with buildings and other lineside features close to the track. Normal train wheels look small on 8-wide trains and spoil the overall impression of the model due to their disproportional scale. Using the larger spoked  wheels from steam engines is not a convincing solution.

Are these comments from the book? I haven't read it, but haven't  found the listed issues to be a problem for any of my long 8-wide builds.

 

The weight can be an issue, but there are ways to work around this, such as ball bearings for axles (discussed in a separate thread). I've had the opposite problem with my long 60+ stud passenger cars, where my train was almost too fast through curves! (Pulled by 2 PF train motors) The overhang can be worked around by not placing structures as close to the tracks or using larger radius curves and switches, though often the wider cars can run around the standard curves and switches - Tony Sava, for example, builds the vast majority of his MOCs to run through standard track geometry. And as far as the wheels spoiling the overall impression, I simply haven't found this to be true. I'm sure many 8-wide builders would agree with that, or they simply wouldn't build 8-wide. 

Overall I'd say go for 7 or 8-wide for the benefit of extra detail! There's plenty of ways to work around the impractical scale of the standard Lego track geometry, and plenty of us willing to give advice and solutions if you run into problems!

[Haddock51]

19 minutes ago, CrispyBassist said:

Overall I'd say go for 7 or 8-wide for the benefit of extra detail!

The comments are extracts from Holgers book.

As for myself, I will definitely go for 7-wide with a maximum length of 46 studs. This is the limit for my 9V Extreme layout. Using 9V motors, weight and reasonable speed are certainly no issues in my case. Neither are standard R40 curves, standard- and crossover switches. The only structures close to my tracks I need to consider are safety fences in polycarbonate. Some of them are adjusted after the test runs with the Vintage Train.

My biggest problem at this point in time seems to be the colour schemes. I was not aware that the windows are not available in dark blue.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Haddock51

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

6 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

...firstly to go with a modern locomotive (as used today) or a historic steam locomotive. Personally I would much rather go down the steam route...

I agree ...the steam engine is the perfect solution for this long train

[Redimus]

I'd argue that 7 wide can potentially be heavier than 8 wide, because it isn't a particularly natural width for standard Lego elements. I needed to use a lot of complex construction to get the (mostly) 7 wide Pullmans right.

 

Hopefully this should work: Click me!

In there was my city scale 6 wide proof of concept, and 7 wide standard coach and 7 wide break coach.

Loose parts are:

• Tubes to form the underframes.
• 2x4 black tiles for the door windows.
• 2x2 turntables for the toilet windows.
• roof
• bogies (they are a tad long, it's not too bad, but it does cause some drag on sharp curves).

Lemme know if it doesn't work.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Redimus

[ElectroDiva]

Thanks @Redimus - will have a look tonight. Particularly interested to see how you constructed a 7 wide base and those lovely oval doors

 

15 hours ago, CrispyBassist said:

The weight can be an issue, but there are ways to work around this, such as ball bearings for axles (discussed in a separate thread). I've had the opposite problem with my long 60+ stud passenger cars, where my train was almost too fast through curves! (Pulled by 2 PF train motors) The overhang can be worked around by not placing structures as close to the tracks or using larger radius!

 

Very interesting - can you provide a link to that thread with the ball bearing axles please?

 

With regard to the overhang for 8 wide cars - presumably that is more to do with the longer length coaches that most modellers go with rather than the 8 wide width? I’m wondering if I could get away with 8 wide for the interior detail with a shorter length (28-32 studs) for practicality. 

[CrispyBassist]

55 minutes ago, ElectroDiva said:

Very interesting - can you provide a link to that thread with the ball bearing axles please?

Bam: 

 

17 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

The comments are extracts from Holgers book

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying!

[marbleman]

My 8 wide  orient express for your reference.

 

[ElectroDiva]

Thanks @marbleman - those are great looking coaches - love the brick built decals and oval door windows in particular !

[Redimus]

This is what I love about Lego Mocs.
Those coaches are a completely different but fantastic take on the same basic kind of coach I made.

I found myself thinking 'I wish I had thought of that' for a few of the features.

[JopieK]

14 hours ago, Redimus said:

This is what I love about Lego Mocs.
Those coaches are a completely different but fantastic take on the same basic kind of coach I made.

I found myself thinking 'I wish I had thought of that' for a few of the features.

They look very nice, but some users experience problems with the large size of the pic :)

[Haddock51]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎08 at 1:19 PM, ElectroDiva said:

I’m wondering if I could get away with 8 wide for the interior detail with a shorter length (28-32 studs) for practicality. 

This is primarily a matter of proportionality.

The ratio between width and length is typically 1:6 (primarily 6-wide), 1:7, 1:8 or even 1:9 in some cases.

To go for 8-width with a length of 28 - 32 studs would be equal to ratios of 1:3,5 - 1:4. For those who put high priority on proportionality - i.e. scale fidelity - these ratios would look disproportional (too short).

Well I guess everybody has his/her preferences ....

Edited May 11, 2018 by Haddock51

[ElectroDiva]

Yep - you’re right @Haddock51 - I realised that would be too short almost immediately after I typed it :)

 

I’ve been playing around with a few different length bases that will easily go round a standard radius curve. 40 studs long seems to work quite well and will give me a 5:1 ratio for my 8 stud width. 

[Haddock51]

4 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

 40 studs long seems to work quite well and will give me a 5:1 ratio for my 8 stud width. 

I agree, that should work. And a ratio 5:1 is still quite ok.

[ScotNick]

Now I'll also enter this topic :)

I did try my hands on an Orient Express coach about 3 years ago an this was the result:

Orient Express Car by ScotNick1, on Flickr

However I found it really hard to design a whole train due to some problems, some of which you also mentioned:

On 5/7/2018 at 3:58 PM, ElectroDiva said:

As as far as I see it, there are a number of things to consider - firstly to go with a modern locomotive (as used today) or a historic steam locomotive. Personally I would much rather go down the steam route but am struggling to find good pictures of steam locomotives that have been used with this service.

 

Secondly - what color scheme to go with. The carriages seem to have two configurations - blue with cream/white windows and a white roof or blue with blue windows and a white roof. I’ve opted for the latter.

 

Thirdly - to use custom printed decals or try to approximate the look with Lego pieces. I think I’d like to use custom printed decals but wouldn’t know where to get these.

 

Finally - what scale to use - 6 wide or 8 wide. I’m personally leaning towards 8 wide by 48 studs long to allow a decent level of detail.

I think the train was often pulled by different engines in the different countries and the consist of coaches was inconsistent over the years that it's really hard to find "the one" Orient Express train.
So you could use many different engines and different coaches and still have a "prototypical" Orient Express train...

I did opt for 7 wide as this is the scale I use and like best, I'm not sure about the decals though...

Edited May 16, 2018 by ScotNick

[ElectroDiva]

Another great looking OE coach - thanks for sharing @ScotNick.

 

How long is it (seems >40 studs). Does it run ok?

 

Also - very happy to see the news about a new Hogwarts Express today. Just in time to get some decently priced parts for my custom locomotive for this project 

[ScotNick]

@ElectroDiva 

Yes, the body of the coach is 52 studs long, don't know how they'd run though, haven't (yet) built them in real. Also as far as I'm aware those 1x6 bricks with curved cutout aren't available in dark blue (or weren't back when I designed them)...

[ElectroDiva]

Wow - nice render!

 

Yep - those dark blue parts are very limited in terms of their ability. That’s why I’ve decided to compromise on that and go with standard blue.

[AE bricks]

On 5/7/2018 at 3:58 PM, ElectroDiva said:

 

Secondly - what color scheme to go with. The carriages seem to have two configurations - blue with cream/white windows and a white roof or blue with blue windows and a white roof. I’ve opted for the latter.

I think dark blue or dark green would combine great with cream white and gold collored details.