Hello darkness my old friend

[x105Black]

28 minutes ago, MAB said:

What if Harry Potter fights Batman?

Well then those are 2 defined characters fighting.  Yes, a child may want to give them different attributes, but other Castle minifigures are much less defined.

But that's not the point.  The point is that really there is no non-licensed Castle theme, and that licensed themes seem to be creeping steadily into those slots formerly occupied by the non-licensed themes.  Many see this as tragic.  You may not, and that's fine, but many of us do, and it's perfectly OK that we do.

18 minutes ago, icm said:

This.  Although licenses considerably reduce the "solution space" available for play, that very constraint serves as a useful point of departure for play, so long as the sets themselves remain reasonably flexible.  That's why so many adult builders, proud of their creativity and imagination, nevertheless build largely within genres that are very well defined: Neo-Classic Space builds, Ice Planet builds, Star Wars, various genres of Castle, Bionicle, big rectangular SHIPs that all look the same, etc.  Heck, that's the reason why TLG began producing themed "sets" back in the 1950s rather than completely unconstrained but thoroughly generic boxes of basic bricks!  It's the same principle used in design thinking and decision making of all kinds: the more rapidly you can narrow the design space, the more quickly you can apply all your imagination to solving the more narrowly defined problem - even if that leads to some engineering solutions that are not ideal, or it leads to the Dark Knight of Gotham riding a thestral at a joust at Hogwarts because there isn't a "real" black knight figure available to joust at a "real" castle.

I get what you are saying, but I think this works on a bell curve (at least to me) and that Castle (or other generic non-licensed traditional LEGO themes) is in the sweet spot between offering nothing to build upon (generic brick boxes) and offering too much (pre-existing licensed worlds).

[icm]

Just now, x105Black said:

I get what you are saying, but I think this works on a bell curve (at least to me) and that Castle (or other generic non-licensed traditional LEGO themes) is in the sweet spot between offering nothing to build upon (generic brick boxes) and offering too much (pre-existing licensed worlds).

Yeah, I get this and I agree.  Traditional Castle does a pretty good job of offering inspiration without too much definition, and I totally understand (and agree with) the general points against licensed themes and for more generic in-house themes.  I suppose my comment was really kind of off-topic, as it was more related to the general tension between "unconstrained creativity" and genre building than it was to the past few years' lack of a traditional Castle theme and the potential impact of Harry Potter sets on future possibilities for such a theme.

[MAB]

10 minutes ago, x105Black said:

But that's not the point.  The point is that really there is no non-licensed Castle theme, and that licensed themes seem to be creeping steadily into those slots formerly occupied by the non-licensed themes.  Many see this as tragic.  You may not, and that's fine, but many of us do, and it's perfectly OK that we do.

 

I would love to see a generic castle theme again.

11 minutes ago, x105Black said:

The point is that really there is no non-licensed Castle theme,

 

I agree with that part of the sentence ...

11 minutes ago, x105Black said:

and that licensed themes seem to be creeping steadily into those slots formerly occupied by the non-licensed themes.

2

... but I don't agree with that. There is no doubt that there are more licensed themes than in the past and less in-house ones. But are they taking the slots that were occupied by the non-licensed themes or are they taking new ones, with the old ones just canned? The end result is, of course, the same but the implication is that Harry Potter (and/or other licenses) stops Castle (and other non-licenses) by taking their slots which I don't think is necessarily true. And unless LEGO ever came out and said that (highly unlikely), we will never know. It may just be that LEGO don't want to do Castle and Space as they don't make enough money from them. They managed to do some Castle when LOTR/Hobbit was active and production capacity has supposedly gone up, so I would speculate they could do a few or more Castle sets like they did in 2012-13 if they wanted to. There is less of a clash of Castle with HP compared to Castle with LOTR. So if they don't, I would expect it is because they (still) don't want to bring back Castle (yet) rather than the evil licensed Harry Potter stealing the slot.

25 minutes ago, x105Black said:

Many see this as tragic.  You may not, and that's fine, but many of us do, and it's perfectly OK that we do.

 

I see it as disappointing rather than tragic. While I would like the theme back again, I understand why they might not want to. And using imagination there are numerous and reasonable scraps that we can take for Castle type builds, be it grey and natural coloured bricks, figures or parts of figures from the CMFs or licensed sets - the recent Aquaman set was great for sand green parts and for anyone building elf armies, for example (especially as it was heavily discounted here!). I don't feel constrained by the SH license and some of those outfits are very much like Hobbit elf armour and the heads are generic enough to be used for fleshie Castle characters (unlike the ones wearing masks, for example). When I see the head, I don't see Aquaman, I see a bearded soldier. Of course, it would be nice to get more Castle sets especially for those that do not MOC, but the health of the historical forum compared to some of the others does show that it is still alive even if LEGO don't do strictly relevant sets. That is mainly the reason I don't see it as tragic.

[Brick Pilgrim]

@MAB: Well I guess you completely dismantled my argument, good for you... and me. It's good to be told you're wrong every once in a while. And I think a lot of us castle builders do realize we can take parts out of these sets (such as HP) and create our own stories. I guess what we're looking for are sets that have more useful pieces rather than just having a few particularly good ones, and then a bunch of pieces we have no use for. That being said, I must make two caveats: 1) I am a bit excited about HP. I never got into the actual stories behind the sets but I can see that these sets could have many useful parts (it all depends on how they're made) and 2) Perhaps even that argument could be dismantled by a statement such as, "If you want to be truly creative, find uses for those parts you think are 'not useful'" (although some pieces are undeniably more useful in castle-building than others).

I'm not against licensed themes, I just messed up when on my mini-rant (and I'm putting my foot in my mouth ). I do wish that there would be at least one theme (licensed or unlicensed) every so often (2 years or so) that has a castle theme to it (and I mean truly medieval-style castle, not modern-day stuff).

1 hour ago, x105Black said:

I get what you are saying, but I think this works on a bell curve (at least to me) and that Castle (or other generic non-licensed traditional LEGO themes) is in the sweet spot between offering nothing to build upon (generic brick boxes) and offering too much (pre-existing licensed worlds).

Agreed!

Edited May 10, 2018 by Brick Pilgrim
Edited to shorten the reply and remove pictures within a quote.

[leafan]

On 5/1/2018 at 9:41 PM, SirBlake said:

This is a weird thing for me to post, as I never could have imagined doing this willingly, but I find myself walking into a new dark age.

It's been years since TLG has offered anything I really cared for, and with nothing on the horizon that fits my taste, I'm just going to say adios. I'm not posting this for drama, I've just forged some friendships on here (most of which hang out here in the Historic forum) in the last several years, and I didn't want anyone to think I had gone missing. The simple fact is that my hobby is centered around buying, building and displaying Castle sets and figs, and there's just nothing for me out there anymore. They've even found a way to kill the CMF line for me with all this licensed and themed junk. Because of this, being involved in the online community that surrounds Lego has turned sour. It's just not fun anymore.

I'll see you guys if/when Lego decides to offer something I'm actually interested in. So long and thanks for all the fish.

Hello Sir Blake,

Nice to 'meet' you.

I stumbled upon this web forum and your post whilst in my lunch break at work today, and I have to say that hearing a like-minded individual like yourself sounding so down made me want to come here, registered and let you know that Castle theme Lives On! This is my first ever post and you are responsible for that so thanks.

I've recently come out of my dark ages and fully intend to write up an S.A. on the details of it all and my journey since then.

Until then, I want you to know that I feel the same about historical themes in Lego and especially Castle.

I feel where you're coming from and I have to say that I don't think Lego is through with the Castle themes, but rather just on a hiatus, so take a break, save your money, and come back with Lego swords flailing when they release the next Castle line and when there's another beautiful Knight minifigure in Series 19 CMF.

Until then, I'm enjoying my newly built 1980s King's Castle that was pieced together a mixed lot I bought from a charity shop!

Yours truly,

Leafan.

[BrickJagger]

There are a few problems with Castle's current situation. First of all, a lot of us like Castle because it is Castle. It's usually Historic, it directly fits our needs and even when it occasionally deviates from the mean (KK2) there are still plenty of good figures and sets within that very theme that appeal to all of us. It's also fun to be a fan of something with such a long, varied and established history that stretches back over forty years.

When Lego tries to "replace" Castle with a licensed theme, it's not the same. That theme has its own fanbase and its own established plot. Oftentimes the people here and those licensed fans do not mesh well. It'd be like cancelling Star Trek and telling its former fans to go watch Star Wars instead. 

Secondly, it's the Castle fans themselves. We have lots of great members here in Historic themes. Many have been around for years, and a few for almost a decade. There are a lot of different and well-thought out arguments and discussions in the threads here, more so than most other boards IMO. The longer Lego goes without making a Castle theme, the more members lose interest and leave, such as SirBlake. I don't blame them, and it's hard to stay loyal to a brand that gives you nothing of what you want. A lot of people used to take solace in the CMF line, but even that has been cannibalized by The Simpsons, Disney, Batman, Ninjago, Harry Potter, etc. 

On another note, welcome to the boards, @leafan ! It's pretty quiet in this section right now but there's a voting game coming soon that's bound to be interesting. 

Also, we should probably continue this discussion in another thread because this one is about SirBlake.

Edited May 10, 2018 by BrickJagger

[MAB]

12 hours ago, Brick Pilgrim said:

@MAB: Well I guess you completely dismantled my argument, good for you... and me. It's good to be told you're wrong every once in a while. And I think a lot of us castle builders do realize we can take parts out of these sets (such as HP) and create our own stories. I guess what we're looking for are sets that have more useful pieces rather than just having a few particularly good ones, and then a bunch of pieces we have no use for. That being said, I must make two caveats: 1) I am a bit excited about HP. I never got into the actual stories behind the sets but I can see that these sets could have many useful parts (it all depends on how they're made) and 2) Perhaps even that argument could be dismantled by a statement such as, "If you want to be truly creative, find uses for those parts you think are 'not useful'" (although some pieces are undeniably more useful in castle-building than others).

I'm not against licensed themes, I just messed up when on my mini-rant (and I'm putting my foot in my mouth ). I do wish that there would be at least one theme (licensed or unlicensed) every so often (2 years or so) that has a castle theme to it (and I mean truly medieval-style castle, not modern-day stuff).

 

 

It is funny in a way that non-licensed sets supposedly allow more imaginative play, yet that imagination cannot be used to convert other sets (such as the Aquaman/Atlantis one) into castle. For me, that has been the best "Castle" set since the end of The Hobbit. Perfect building parts minus a few transparent ones and parts from 3 out of 4 figures (the fourth is useless, sell it) for Castle builds. It may not be Castle, but imagination makes it Castle. Of course, sets like that are relatively rare and some (probably many) licensed minifigures are just too distinctive to be useful.

I think enough modern sets do give us the parts* (whether by buying sets and selling off the "junk" or buying just the bits we want on BL), but the main issue is the lack of new historical minifigures. If Castle does come back, I really hope they come up with updated factions, not just crowns and lions, etc. I bought loads of those parts last time. The CMF had provided us with decent figures / parts but seems to be in a bit of a low point this year. I can understand why, with the 40th celebration, but the lack of decent Castle figures this year is noticeable. *Obviously this applies only for those that MOC. Those that don't are still screwed when it comes to sets.

I wouldn't even mind castle in a modern day setting, give us a ruined castle with a small museum attached, I'd probably buy it. Give us a history room in a museum with dummies in historical dress, I'd probably buy it for that.

[Brick Pilgrim]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

It is funny in a way that non-licensed sets supposedly allow more imaginative play, yet that imagination cannot be used to convert other sets (such as the Aquaman/Atlantis one) into castle. For me, that has been the best "Castle" set since the end of The Hobbit. Perfect building parts minus a few transparent ones and parts from 3 out of 4 figures (the fourth is useless, sell it) for Castle builds. It may not be Castle, but imagination makes it Castle. Of course, sets like that are relatively rare and some (probably many) licensed minifigures are just too distinctive to be useful.

I think enough modern sets do give us the parts* (whether by buying sets and selling off the "junk" or buying just the bits we want on BL), but the main issue is the lack of new historical minifigures. If Castle does come back, I really hope they come up with updated factions, not just crowns and lions, etc. I bought loads of those parts last time. The CMF had provided us with decent figures / parts but seems to be in a bit of a low point this year. I can understand why, with the 40th celebration, but the lack of decent Castle figures this year is noticeable. *Obviously this applies only for those that MOC. Those that don't are still screwed when it comes to sets.

I wouldn't even mind castle in a modern day setting, give us a ruined castle with a small museum attached, I'd probably buy it. Give us a history room in a museum with dummies in historical dress, I'd probably buy it for that.

Yeah, I agree. We castle fans definitely miss our minifigs. And you hit the mark perfectly, IMO, about the licensed figures being too distinctive: I use them because that's what I have, but if Lego could come out with a new unlicensed Castle line with distinct characters, I'd love to switch from using fleshies to yellow faces. I guess my main problem with switching won't be solved by that anyway, though: I only have a few hair pieces that don't clash with yellow, but if Lego releases a Castle line, they'll probably use mostly helmets and other headgear so you wouldn't get hairpieces that way anyway (I guess BL is the way to go for me).

As for your last paragraph, I'm definitely with you on that. I don't mind it being modern, as long as we get pieces that work nicely (and realistically) in a medieval setting.

Welcome to the forums and to the Historic Themes community @leafan!

[MAB]

56 minutes ago, Brick Pilgrim said:

I'd love to switch from using fleshies to yellow faces.

1

Try to do a deal with someone local to you / in your country. I have a couple of trading buddies, where I can swap most of my generic yellow heads and hands for their generic fleshie heads and hands (I prefer fleshies, they like yellow skins).

[Brick Pilgrim]

23 minutes ago, MAB said:

Try to do a deal with someone local to you / in your country. I have a couple of trading buddies, where I can swap most of my generic yellow heads and hands for their generic fleshie heads and hands (I prefer fleshies, they like yellow skins).

Good idea. 

[x105Black]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

It is funny in a way that non-licensed sets supposedly allow more imaginative play, yet that imagination cannot be used to convert other sets (such as the Aquaman/Atlantis one) into castle. For me, that has been the best "Castle" set since the end of The Hobbit. Perfect building parts minus a few transparent ones and parts from 3 out of 4 figures (the fourth is useless, sell it) for Castle builds. It may not be Castle, but imagination makes it Castle. Of course, sets like that are relatively rare and some (probably many) licensed minifigures are just too distinctive to be useful.

I found that set to be very useful as well, and have 3 copies of it.  But you're right, sets like that are rare and many licensed figures are too distinctive to be useful.  Still, I find I get a lot of use out of select Star Wars sets as well.  I like to have a variety of strange fantasy races, and Star Wars aliens often fit the bill.  There are also other characters with great torso prints and such that work well in a fantasy setting, and many of the sets contain a lot of grey pieces.  But still, these are few and far between.

[Aanchir]

On 5/10/2018 at 3:00 PM, Brick Pilgrim said:

And I think a lot of us castle builders do realize we can take parts out of these sets (such as HP) and create our own stories. I guess what we're looking for are sets that have more useful pieces rather than just having a few particularly good ones, and then a bunch of pieces we have no use for.

What confuses me about that particular perspective is that these days, most sets (besides Technic and constraction) are primarily generic, non-theme-specific bricks. Oftentimes they're even in generic colors — like, I don't know if everyone here has seen this blog post, but that person did an analysis of the inventories of different themes and found the most common colors even in colorful themes like LEGO Elves, LEGO Friends, and LEGO Ninjago were ones like black, white, brown, tan, and grey. Any of those is a perfectly viable Castle color, and while some of those might be specific stuff like tires or headgear, most of them are inevitably going to be standard building elements.

Thus for a lot of people the difference between an set that stands out as useful to one's interests and one that doesn't actually DOES seem to come down to a few particular parts (specifically, minifig/character parts and accessories). 90% of the bricks in an Elves or Ninjago set might be equally well suited to Castle MOCs, but because they don't have new or existing heraldry for Castle figs they're considered "not good enough" for Castle fans to bother with.

Never mind the whole question of "does it go with my existing collection", because by that logic a person whose only set was the original yellow castle would hardly be able to find anything visually compatible even by the early 90s! That mode of thinking quickly locks you into repetition and out of new ways of thinking. It's also a standard people rarely follow through on consistently. I guarantee you that many people who scoff at the bright roof and foliage colors in Elves sets were perfectly willing to introduce new colors like Sand Green, Sand Blue, Dark Red, Earth Blue, and Earth Green to their repertoire in the early 2000s, they just can't get over thinking that "masculine" colors are serious business while "feminine" colors are frivolous and not worth their time.

None of this is meant as an indictment of you, SirBlake. You've contributed well to this site, and if the current LEGO lineup isn't holding your interest there's no shame in moving on to other things. Honestly, as AFOLs I think there has to come a time for all of us when we realize that LEGO stopped being beholden to our individual tastes a long time ago. Certainly I like a lot of current LEGO themes, but that's largely serendipitous — those themes have always been driven more by kids' tastes than by mine, those tastes just happen to more or less align in certain circumstances. Maybe when I'm your age kids will have moved on from stuff I like and I'll have to make some tough decisions of my own about my place in the LEGO community and the LEGO community's place in my life. I'm sure you've given this plenty of thought and you don't owe any of us your presence here if it doesn't make you happy. I just hope you find plenty else to occupy your time in a way that better fulfills your needs and desires.

[x105Black]

33 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

because they don't have new or existing heraldry for Castle figs they're considered "not good enough" for Castle fans to bother with.

Lots of pieces from lots of sets fit well enough, but these are the parts that will really make Castle fans happy.  Generic pieces can be found anywhere, but heraldry and minifigures are much harder to come by.

[Artanis I]

Stop walking over his grave, you lot. This kind of discussion is what makes it all feel hopeless

 

How rude!

[Ravelino]

 

Salute SirBlake.. us true castle fans get where you are coming from as you have read from your colleagues and shall miss your presence

I myself have doubted wether I should "go back" to Lego because of this fact, the fact that I usually MOC out every set I own made the difference for me...

I understand from your post your building was more focused on combining and MOCing around official sets so that to me would certainly be nigh impossible with what TLG is bringing out nowadays

Best of luck in your future enterprises and may your old castle sets provide you with some solace in the coming time

9 hours ago, Artanis I said:

Stop walking over his grave, you lot. This kind of discussion is what makes it all feel hopeless

 

How rude!

This made my morning again after reading through the first part of this thread lol

[MAB]

24 minutes ago, Ravelino said:

Salute SirBlake.. us true castle fans get where you are coming from as you have read from your colleagues and shall miss your presence

 

That is part of the problem here. Only people that want things back as they were are "true castle fans", implying that others have a lesser standing.

[Aanchir]

12 hours ago, Artanis I said:

Stop walking over his grave, you lot. This kind of discussion is what makes it all feel hopeless

 

How rude!

Well, treating a difficult personal decision as equivalent to dying doesn’t seem to encourage an attitude of hopefulness either…