Attitudes and mindsets

[Bublehead]

Ok, after reading many threads and many posts in this forum, I finally figured out what is missing from around here. And don't get me wrong, its not something you can attribute or pin down to any individual or groups thereof.  I'm going to call it "Childish Wonderment". And I am going to give you a definition of it that most will understand. Konajra's ship models.  They are truly amazing builds. They are somehow magical in their presentation, the details, the skill. You look at them and are caught in a moment of "Childish Wonderment".  That is the element on the periodic table of elements labeled Cw and has an atomic weight of fairies wings and gnome dust.  What I think has happened is we have been so saturated by this element from all the amazing creators out there that we become immune to its affects and so we have become hyper critical of every MOC that comes along. I remember when people got excited when TLG's Technic models where displayed and brought to brick fairs and gatherings, and now they tell you, don't even think about displaying them or bringing them... they are no longer considered "cool enough" for all the AFOLs who go to these things. And I think that is evident even here.  I've seen some pretty impressive MOCs and the comments can come off like the Russian judge at the Olympics...(no disrespect to Russians, but here in the States, the Russian judge was always seen as the most critical).  I get constructive criticism, which is funny when you think about the fact we play with a "construction" toy.  But this is where we seem to have gotten so quick to judge and discount all the hard work that goes into these creations.  Has it gotten so bad that we need to justify every "gear click", tire rubbing sound, motor groan, or surface gap that you see in our videos?  What has happened to the Childish Wonderment of a new MOC? And why the ban on self promotion in our own threads? Why is there an aversion for somebody tooting their own horn? In other forums I have been involved in, things never seemed so serious, and so stifling to creativity.  I understand people get tired of dealing with bravado and inflated claims, but I feel that my gaff when starting my MOC thread has really soured this community towards me and my skills. When will people go back to just being amazed at the MOCs and exhibit that childish wonderment once again? Just some food for thought...

BH

[Paul Boratko]

I think all mocs need an evenly based amount of criticism and praise, because no one is building anything perfect... This way you have enough motivation to continue building, while you also get experience to take into your future builds...That is one of the nice things about this forum compared to places like Facebook, where you have people actually offering criticism to help each other improve rather than just telling you how great you are... I got criticized for years here for not having a more interesting steering system in my models, so I finally took that criticism in and added something different(for me) in my newest model...

As far as people promoting themselves, I would say that if someone likes to create threads early and tease to build up hype, then the model that they finally deliver should live up to the hype they created..

[Aleh]

Nice topic, deep thinkings!

For me not easy to understand in English.

Today we became so called fatcats. 

It has becoming harder and harder to surprise the audience. Mocs are becoming more complex from time to time, more interesting. Easy access to YouTube etc.

But I remembrt the time when even Lego catalog was a whole present itself. I burned gapes in it’s pages with my eyes. 

[Erik Leppen]

Interesting, Bublehead. I have not long ago argued against the opposite - that I find that there is too much critiqueless praise on MOCs (and some sets). Don't get me wrong - a LOT of really good models are built, but nothing is perfect and there's always ways to improve.

3 hours ago, Bublehead said:

What I think has happened is we have been so saturated by this element from all the amazing creators out there that we become immune to its affects and so we have become hyper critical of every MOC that comes along. 

I'm not sure that's the reason.

I think we have become so critical because we have years of experience and are hence very good builders, and this is partly because we received such critiques from other builders. I am still of the opinion that receiving detailed, specific feedback on any piece of work can be a tremendous learning aid when trying to improve your skills on that type of work. This doesn't hold only for Lego building, but also for music, drawing, programming, SimCity city building or any other creative outlet.

Also, if someone posts their model, I assume that they did their best on it. That is, that every self-critique they might have had, they already used before posting it. So I assume that if someone posts anything, it's as good as they can do it. Otherwise they'd improve it, right? So that's why I feel jusitified to give my view on it - any critique I can see is something the builder didn't think of (or sees differently) otherwise he/she would already have processed it.

So I see this critique as the life-blood of a learning community. I hope it stays this way. To be clear - with "critique" I don't mean only negative points. It's just as valuable to point to specific highlights on a model. Where by "specific" I don't mean "Wow, this is great" (althought it can't hurt to say that too, to praise the work that went into a model and the persistence needed to finish it). Specific is "I like the way you did [X] because [Y]".

Or, speaking for myself, I want critique on my models. That's why I post them. I don't post them to show the world how good I am. I don't care how good other people think I am. I want to learn to become better, because that's what the hobby is about for me.

Plus, I really hate bragging. Simple as that. Show, don't tell. If you're good, people will notice.

[TeamThrifty]

I tend to agree. We live in a world of hyper-sensitivity generally, and on here... 

3 hours ago, Bublehead said:

 Has it gotten so bad that we need to justify every "gear click", tire rubbing sound, motor groan, or surface gap that you see in our videos?

Apparently so... and don't start me on the 'illegal use' of parts. that i truly don't get!! (but each to their own, i'm not precious about it...) There was an exceptional supercar posted a couple of days ago, and it was pointed out that it didn't conform to what TLG would expect of an official model!!?? So what. I say it again. So. What. The model was exceptional, i spent ages looking at the pics.. then read the comments below and i didn't think they were commenting on the same moc!! 

But i've said it before, its a forum, and even a good forum is still anonymous access from behind a keyboard. If the moc above was displayed in a room with all the forum members physically there, i guarantee the 'feedback' would have been different!!

 

1 minute ago, Erik Leppen said:

So I see this critique as the life-blood of a learning community.

There is a difference between what you're referring to - genuine and balanced feedback, which is valuable, no doubt - versus some of the petty, pointless gripes that do appear on here regularly. Its a minority, but it is there.

[Erik Leppen]

17 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

There was an exceptional supercar posted a couple of days ago, and it was pointed out that it didn't conform to what TLG would expect of an official model!!?? So what. I say it again. So. What. The model was exceptional

Well, if no one cared, no one would have posted. Apparently, there are people who care. If you don't care, that's your right of course, so disregard that comment (whether it's your own MOC or not), but don't expect of others that they shouldn't care either (I know you don't say that, so please don't see this as critique on you). I would be really happy if people pointed things like that out for my models. It means they took the time to check out my model in detail (and with different eyes than my own) and write feedback - which is quite an honor in itself - and give me the opportunity to learn some new things.

I think it's great if people dare to critique a model everyone else praises. I can't stand the herd mentality of 100 people posting "wow" and "HoF" and little else, falsely insinuating a model is perfect and can't be improved.

Also, (I know what model you're talking about) - the model is great, but in a sea of many great models this is not "exceptional" in the literal sense of the word - being great is not an exception here, because many great builders have gathered and made each other even greater through feedback and motivation.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Erik Leppen

[Bublehead]

@Paul Boratko,  I think the misunderstanding for me is that the people here have a different set of values than myself when it comes to creating models.  My focus is more on creating a great play set, not a great model, which is TLG's focus as well.  I am a creator of toys. I make things that make children smile, wonder, and imagine. I am not out to create the best model, or the best representation of a certain vehicle or the best super car (your forte and skill, I do attest to, because years ago you argued that stud-less was the future... and you were right).

So what comes off as super critical in my mind, is really people offering advice on how to make it a better model, from many viewpoints, but that is not what interests me. Tell me how to make it a better toy? And I will listen all day. And I know there will be people who will ask what's the difference? So let me explain... when people discuss official Lego Technic sets, they tend to be very critical from a modeling point of view.  This isn't realistic, that isn't to scale, this doesn't represent a real world vehicle, It has a V-6 and Brand X don't have V-6 motors they have straight 6's...  But the designers don't really care about that as much, and neither do I... The question is will a child play with it and do they think it is cool? - enough so to pester their parents for a full year and a half until they buy it for them for their birthday? I thought people would appreciate the thought, time and skill it took to create a set so engrossing (to a child) that it was worthy of being a Flagship Technic set, albeit one slightly over the top. What I got was advice critical of the model, and nothing about it's playability. 

So I want to apologize to the critics, and fellow builders if my models don't live up to the hype of a good model, because that is not what I focus on. My focus is on playability, functionality, durability, reliability, and ease of operation.  I like designing toys for children,  so please keep that in mind when viewing my MOCs.

BH

 

[Bublehead]

1 hour ago, Aleh said:

Nice topic, deep thinkings!

But I remembrt the time when even Lego catalog was a whole present itself. I burned gapes in it’s pages with my eyes. 

Some people keep naughty magazines under their mattresses. I kept the latest Lego Shop at Home catalog under mine.

[jrx]

Interesting discussion you startet @Bublehead. I think one has to differentiate between MOCs and official sets. When discussing TLG sets I often have the feeling, people use same standards for them they use for MOCs. As for official sets your focus I think is right. But if a official set is bullocks it must be said as it was with 42070. In my opinion a MOC is something completely different. And it's relatively rare (as I observe it) that one is building a MOC with the focus as you described it.

18 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

My focus is on playability, functionality, durability, reliability, and ease of operation.

For me I like praise as well as critics - but please in a healthy ratio. Sometimes I wonder when seeing a cool but not perfect MOC when everybody complains about without giving some proper acknowledgment. But I'm fully with Erik when he says:

50 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

I can't stand the herd mentality of 100 people posting "wow" and "HoF" and little else, falsely insinuating a model is perfect and can't be improved.

Clear for me: Some healthy praise is also motivating.

And that's true as well:

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

Plus, I really hate bragging. Simple as that. Show, don't tell. If you're good, people will notice.

What I really hate is when people complaining about things like accents or language imbalance in comments on videos.

[Bublehead]

4 minutes ago, jrx said:

But if a official set is bullocks it must be said as it was with 42070. 

But was it a bullocks set because it was a poor model, or was it a bullocks set because it didn't play well?  My argument would be it was a very interesting mechanism and it did fit the bill of an RC set, it had playability but lacked a balance with also being a well designed model. It is not a crowd pleaser when it comes to the Disney barfed color scheme, or the fact it looked like a Hummer mated with a Unimog and this was the still birth that resulted. But I digress into a review of the 42070, but I bought it just the same, which is a weakness of mine... one tends to get a little nervy when they haven't built a flagship set in a while, no matter how offensive the model.

[jrx]

2 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

But was it a bullocks set because it was a poor model, or was it a bullocks set because it didn't play well?

I think: The problem was that this set was imbalanced. To expensive, below average design (especially compared to 42069) and simply not a worth 40. anniversary flagship set. Would it have been 100€ cheaper and if there would have been something really special to celebrate 40 years of Technic then the complaints would have been much less. But that topic was discussed in the regarding thread sufficiently.

[Carsten Svendsen]

What annoys me the most is when you post a MOC that you've spent many hours and days on and the responses are nearly non-existent.

Take for instance my battery drill. I had limited parts selection and I made it work anyway, though with a bit of a clunky design, and guess how many people posted a response?

1.

Just one person. Surely it's not the greatest MOC out there, but I've seen MOCs that look like something pulled out of a 3 year olds bedroom and they get lots and lots of responses.

I don't care if people just write "cool, seen it" or something similar but a little recognition should be deserved, no matter who you are or what you built.

Usually when I see a MOC with near to no responses, it's usually not that great, and so I typically give some constructive feedback while trying not to sound too negative. I can handle big criticism, but I'm different and I'm sure that other people, especially ones like OP, aren't as fortunate.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Carsten Svendsen

[Bublehead]

@Carsten Svendsen, I have thick enough skin for criticism, I just needed to understand why it all seemed so critical from the general forum aspect, which turns out we have a lot of experts with strong opinions on Mocs... which is good.  

 

 

[Rudivdk]

49 minutes ago, Carsten Svendsen said:

What annoys me the most is when you post a MOC that you've spent many hours and days on and the responses are nearly non-existent.

I do get the feeling sometimes that people do not care anymore to say they like something (just for what it is), but do care to say they do NOT like something ( mostly on details). Which means that if there is not much to dislike, there will not be much comments. No offense to any specific member or forum, just a general observation on mentality nowadays.

There is a thin line between constructive and destructive critisism, and flat text can result in a wrong interpretation by readers also...

I notice this in myself as well, I watch almost every topic here but do not comment a lot. And yes, for a part that is because there is so much going on nowadays in AFOL MOCcing, that it is hard to make something that is getting noticed. But also I have a very specific taste in MOCs, I am only interested in (big) car MOCs and usually those are the only topics I reply to. 

I personally do not mind critics, but I also believe that the stronger the claims that are being made by a poster, the stronger the critics will be. Nothing wrong with strong claims, but action=reaction. It happened on @Bublehead's own topic for example. It doesn't relate to the quality of the MOC ( which is great imho, although I haven't posted on it), but is being fed by the way it was presented. But 1 thing is for sure: whatever is posted/commented, it should always stay respectful and constructive. That is why I joined THIS forum in the first place, and it would be sad to see that gone...

[Lipko]

To add to the discussion, there are people like me who think that they are good, they know the reasons why they think they're, yet they usually see awesome looking MOCs with tons of solutions that are against their wievs (illegal techniques, weak connections, unplayable/unreliable functions, wrong proportions, etc) praised to the heaven. These things feel a bit unfair and makes us feel underrated. I know it's not a healthy attitude, but I think at least I'm mature enough to stomach this feeling and I can refrain from commenting or only comment on the good things of the MOC.

I guess there are builders who can't resist the feeling, and this frustration often targets non-members' MOCs or newcomers'.

 

[BrickbyBrickTechnic]

6 hours ago, Paul Boratko said:

As far as people promoting themselves, I would say that if someone likes to create threads early and tease to build up hype, then the model that they finally deliver should live up to the hype they created..

I completely agree with this. This is why I now don't post WIP topics, simply to let the first impression of a build for others be the finished product.

 

And about the topic at hand, I can understand why so many mocs get criticism and less comment now. Everyone is just looking for the next-best thing nowadays. There's no time for mocs in the middle. That why, for example, @Carsten Svendsen 's drill would get only a few comments and my C models as well. 

[Paknaloid]

7 hours ago, Bublehead said:

In other forums I have been involved in, things never seemed so serious

+1

[Didumos69]

Well, I have had my issues with some things happening on this forum. Mostly about people cheering for MOCs that wouldn't meet any of my self-imposed buidling rules. Also about people just posting MOCs to show them and then cut down any constructive critisism. But in the end I guess this is how it is and there's not much we can do about it. Having a discussion like this is good, but I don't think it'll really bring change. So I accepted all that comes with this forum, because in the end I experience this forum as an enrichment to my hobby. What helps is that over time you get to know like-minded people on this forum.

[Erik Leppen]

3 hours ago, Bublehead said:

My focus is on playability, functionality, durability, reliability, and ease of operation.  I like designing toys for children,  so please keep that in mind when viewing my MOCs.

I don't think members can be expected to remember for every member how they like to see the replies to their model. I think it's very simple. People let know in their replies what they find important. If someone makes a reply about realism or whatever other aspect you don't find so interesting, you can just say "thanks for the comment, but if I did that, playability would suffer and I prefer a playable version over a realistic version". You don't have to cater to every reply - you create your model as you wish, people tell their views on it as they wish, you pick out the comments you find useful and disregard the rest. I don't think people should have to be careful and only tell you what you want to hear.

Of course, you can ask readers to focus on specific aspects if you want. But people aren't obliged to follow this, IMO.

And, of course, clarify your goals when you start your topic, so people can understand what design preferences you followed that lead to your model. But that was exactly what you did, which is good :)

1 hour ago, Lipko said:

[...] I can refrain from commenting or only comment on the good things of the MOC.

Which gives exactly the biased viewpoint I'm against. If praise is good and critique is bad, then what's the point? I think everyone is allowed to say what they like about a model, and what they like less about a model, provided they are constructive. (And if people bash a model in non-constructive ways, it's probably against forum rules and you can report them.)

 

3 hours ago, jrx said:

When discussing TLG sets I often have the feeling, people use same standards for them they use for MOCs.

I don't. I'm stricter for sets. The reason: sets are designed by people as their jobs, who are paid good money for designing sets all day. If any model should be (near-)perfect, it's an official set produced in many thousands of copies that customers are expected to pay big money for. If a MOC has a flaw, it's one person who missed something, and nothing is lost. If a set has a flaw, it's because a whole carefully set-up design-process of the billion-dollar toy company we all like, didn't catch it. I find that deserves critique.

Also, it's often said that sets are play sets. I know. But if that's the philosophy of the designers, then I disagree with the designers. I don't see Technic as a play theme. If any Lego theme is not a play theme, it's Technic. It's a build theme (to me), so the build must be interesting (to me), and if the build is boring, the set is bad (to me). 42056, 42064 and 42077 all suffer from this, IMO (42070 doesn't, by the way). Also, we as AFOLs are also customers of TLC (albeit far fewer in number than children) so I feel we are allowed to express our opinions.

40 minutes ago, BrickbyBrickTechnic said:

[...] This is why I now don't post WIP topics, simply to let the first impression of a build for others be the finished product.

Which I find a shame, really. I find WIP topics the most interesting topics there are, because they don't only show a model, but also how it came to be. For me, a large part of Technic is the process that leads to a model. A Technic model is just as much about all the failed try-outs that lead to it, as it's about the one success.

 

8 hours ago, Bublehead said:

In other forums I have been involved in, things never seemed so serious

Then I'm curious what forums you have been involved in, because I see this in all kinds of communities I've been. (drawing, pixel art, music creation, game programming, rollercoaster design). There's always people assuming creators do their best and show their work to get feedback, and feedback-givers focusing on details the creator might have missed.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Erik Leppen

[Bartybum]

2 hours ago, Carsten Svendsen said:

Take for instance my battery drill. I had limited parts selection and I made it work anyway, though with a bit of a clunky design, and guess how many people posted a response?

1.

Just one person. Surely it's not the greatest MOC out there, but I've seen MOCs that look like something pulled out of a 3 year olds bedroom and they get lots and lots of responses.

Dude you got no responses because people probably don’t find battery drills interesting enough to comment on. If you make something that doesn’t have a wide appeal that’s generally how things go down

Edited April 25, 2018 by Bartybum

[shadow_elenter]

It's a different world nowadays, you simply need to build a shield for trolls.

I worked 7 months on my biggest MOC to date, my rollercoaster...
I'ts technically complex, structurally challenging, something no one has ever attempted before on technic figure scale and the concept of how the riders cart is manipulated in so many ways is unique as well and it's clear I put a lot of effort in it.
You wouldn't believe how many people just saw the video and only said "IS NOT A ROLLERCOASTER!" 

I laugh myself silly about people like that!

Current society teaches people to judge others by blabbering their anonymous opinions, regardless of how un-educated or poorly formed that opinion is or what the effect is on whatever or whoever they judge.
It's almost as if what your opinion is is irrelevant, as long as you make noise to make people aware of your existence!

People should refrain form judging things they know little about if they're not asked to. No one is interested in an un-educated or poorly formed opinion.
I can judge someone doing ballet dancing, but I know nothing about the effort of getting to that point, the degree of difficulty, what it would look like if it was done flawlessly so my opinion would be superficial at best.

The art of knowing when you have nothing to add is being forgotten by society, so the art of knowing who's judgement is meaningful is worth pursuing.

[Lipko]

5 minutes ago, shadow_elenter said:

You wouldn't believe how many people just saw the video and only said "IS NOT A ROLLERCOASTER!" 

Yup, most of the comment on my windup insects/insectoids video is that crabs are not insects...
Plus many of the comments for my telehandler is that the music sucks (which is jam recording of my own band by the way)

[Aventador2004]

@Bublehead, you need to know something. This all would have never happened if you had posted a normal title, and a normal description. You had the ability to do that, but you wrote "game changing moc", angering some of us. You just took it as "we are all perfect, you arent". If you wanted attention, it would be best to post a normal description, and step away for a day. If people are interested, they will comment. Also, you aren't the only "TLG playable moc builder". Look at some around here, like even the small things get their attention. For example @Anto's build a few days ago, or my models. We do make those, but you have too look...

Small can do big, big doesn't mean large.

Me too:

"Plus, I really hate bragging. Simple as that. Show, don't tell. If you're good, people will notice."

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Aventador2004

[Bartybum]

11 minutes ago, shadow_elenter said:

I worked 7 months on my biggest MOC to date, my rollercoaster...
I'ts technically complex, structurally challenging, something no one has ever attempted before on technic figure scale and the concept of how the riders cart is manipulated in so many ways is unique as well and it's clear I put a lot of effort in it.
You wouldn't believe how many people just saw the video and only said "IS NOT A ROLLERCOASTER!" 

I laugh myself silly about people like that!

I just checked your rollercoaster post and literally every single comment was praising it, as well as in the YouTube video... the two comments that pointed out it wasn’t technically a rollercoaster were also praising it highly, so I don’t know what you’re talking about

Edited April 25, 2018 by Bartybum

[shadow_elenter]

@Bartybum mostly something that went on in lego technic groups on facebook