MOCer's will you buy the new train sets?

[Toastie]

On ‎25‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 1:57 PM, Duq said:

I regularly buy sets I don't like and I don't see that as throwing away good money for a simple reason: they contain Lego parts I can use in MOCs. And I'd rather get those parts from a Lego theme than a Disney theme.

I believe the initial question has sort of a logical answer: MOCer's (as in experienced MOCer's) won't buy sets because of the sets - never. But surely because of parts not readily available at BrickLink. As @Duqclearly pointed out.

There is hardly any other reason thinkable - just look at the sets available today.

But: The parents of kids - and all "beginners" (with no limit to age, I was a train beginner at age 45) will certainly do - to learn (a lot) and then swiftly go beyond.

Personally, I can't wait for the new LEGO catalog to come out - thrilled as I were 10 years old. It takes days to browse through it. And then there may be sets with new pieces and they may be of interest. Or not.

All the best,
Thorsten  

[Haddock51]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎27 at 11:28 PM, Toastie said:

But: The parents of kids - and all "beginners" (with no limit to age, I was a train beginner at age 45) will certainly do - to learn (a lot) and then swiftly go beyond.

I have read and heard several comments over recent years from parents, expressing their disappointment and frustration about the lack of extensions after having bought the first Lego trains for their children.

"Swiftly go beyond"? To what?

It takes time to become a MOCer. As a consequence of TLGs current "train strategy", there is an obvious risk that more and more among fewer beginners - irrespective of age - will lose interest along this journey.

PS: Talking about the new LEGO catalog. Compare this year's catalog with those 5 - 10 years ago. TLGs offerings and themes have changed/increased dramatically. So has the internal competition. What is the probability today compared to 5 - 10 years ago that parents to small children will chose the Lego train path as their first choice? Your guess is as good as mine.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Haddock51

[zephyr1934]

I see these as potential parts packs. I think that is lego's approach to AFOL trains these days, provide the key parts and then let the builders do the rest (at the very least I am glad they are still producing trains, though like everyone else, I would love a new set at the level of the Maersk or EN).

I am also curious if there are enough parts in the new city trains to serve as a gateway AFOL train for builders who are wanting more than the current sets but have not yet ventured in to attempting a full MOC.

[Yeow]

I'll definitely buy the cargo train and most likely the passenger train, but I can't deny that I'll wait for a sale before picking them up. I understand that most here might not want to because the trains aren't Emerald Night/Maersk tier, but I think the only signal that low sales send is that people don't care about trains anymore, not that their trains aren't good enough.

[Haddock51]

3 hours ago, Yeow said:

 but I think the only signal that low sales send is that people don't care about trains anymore, not that their trains aren't good enough.

Train AFOLs are probably one of the most loyal customer groups in the Lego family, despite all what has happened since I became a member myself back in the early 90:ies.

You have to assume that TLG has a pretty good knowledge - and detailed sales statistics over time - on this particular product line (as on all other product lines as well).

I don't want to hurt your feelings, guys, but the more I read in this thread, the more I get the impression that many of my AFOL colleagues seem to worry most about sending "wrong" signals to TLG by not buying these sets. In other words, their primary interest/concern is to keep TLG happy enough - even if this has come down to part supply decisions only. Amazing.

Now, shouldn't this be the other way round?

To have such a strong and loyal customer base can be looked upon in various ways. If TLG already has reached the conclusion that longterm investments in Lego Trains (with line extensions, innovations, state of the art designs etc.) are too risky or simply not good enough from a financial point of view, then you just continue milking this segment - with a minimum of investments - as long as the numbers are fine. 

It seems like the loyalty of this customer group is so strong that  it actually doesn't matter  - at least not for the time being - if the products are good enough or not ...

Edited March 30, 2018 by Haddock51

[ElectroDiva]

You make a good point @Haddock51 - it should be TLG chasing after customers not the other way round.

 

But you should remember that TLG is a sales behemoth and any marginal lines *will* be cut if the numbers don’t stack up for them. Is that right and fair? No of course not, but it’s the reality of the situation.

 

So the question you have to ask yourself is do you hold your nose and buy what they have to offer (even if it’s not 100% what you want) or do you refuse to do that on principle - knowing that might kill off official train sets completely? I’ve personally decided to do the former as I really wouldn’t want the train theme to die off in the same way as classic space has for example.

 

Where I do completely agree with you though is the lack of respect TLG seems to have for its extremely loyal long term fans. That kind of brand loyalty is very hard to come by and should be valued by them more than it is.

[Yeow]

2 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

Train AFOLs are probably one of the most loyal customer groups in the Lego family, despite all what has happened since I became a member myself back in the early 90:ies.

You have to assume that TLG has a pretty good knowledge - and detailed sales statistics over time - on this particular product line (as on all other product lines as well).

I don't want to hurt your feelings, guys, but the more I read in this thread, the more I get the impression that many of my AFOL colleagues seem to worry most about sending "wrong" signals to TLG by not buying these sets. In other words, their primary interest/concern is to keep TLG happy enough - even if this has come down to part supply decisions only. Amazing.

I'm not sure where you're getting this sentiment from in this thread, because the majority of answers so far have been either a resounding "No" or "Maybe the freight train". If I only bought Lego sets that I fully loved 100%, then i would have never gotten into Lego in the first place. I buy the train sets that interest me, but people who think that not buying the sets will suddenly get Lego to produce more Creator Tier trains are misguided. In this day and age, if a line does poorly, it will be cancelled. Nexo Knights and Bionicle fans know this all too well.

[Haddock51]

6 hours ago, ElectroDiva said:

So the question you have to ask yourself is do you hold your nose and buy what they have to offer (even if it’s not 100% what you want) or do you refuse to do that on principle - knowing that might kill off official train sets completely? I’ve personally decided to do the former as I really wouldn’t want the train theme to die off in the same way as classic space has for example.

Thank you for your open and honest response.

I respect your position even though I don't share it.

My fundamental belief is that TLG should reassess its current business concept and -strategy for this product line - and do that together with Train AFOL representatives and other stakeholders. I am thinking primarily of Product development/-design, Distribution, Marketing and Sales.

Like in many other businesses, things have changed dramatically over the past 10 - 20 years.

I am convinced that TLG could expand and increase the growth of the Lego Train market considerably and profitably by capitalizing on the tremendous assets in terms of skills and capabilities, not just within TLG but among Lego Train MOCers and AFOLs all around the world! This would of course require alternative business models that include stimuli on all sides. Of course there are Trade Mark and Copyright challenges but I firmly believe that there are win-win situations along these paths.

The traditional way of Marketing, Distribution and Sales must be reassessed. Distribution- and inventory costs must be reduced. Shelf space competition must be adressed, Alternative ways of displaying products should be evaluated and tested. The current way of selling standard sets should be challenged and eventually complemented with other more flexible offerings. New modern internet techniques should be evaluated, tested and implemented. Interactive links/cooperation between TLG and its train customer base must be improved and strengthened. Various cooperations with 3rd parties should be evaluated and tested, etc. etc.

There is so much more that could be done - not just to keep this product line alive. Start thinking outside fossil boxes!!

This however assumes a genuine and longterm interest in this segment, very different from the current cashcow and short term payback approach.

And keep in mind, the most important asset for TLG is already there - the extremely loyal customer base, a true gold mine indeed!

So @ElectroDiva, for me this is about much more than "holding your nose" vs. "refusing to buy on principle"...

Edited March 30, 2018 by Haddock51

[sed6]

I've given my question additional consideration and I probably will buy one or both of the sets. Although my MOC's are far cooler than what TLG will release, part of me wants to get them just so I can say I have them.  And perhaps one day they will be boxed back up and passed on to my grandkids and maybe they will find value or enjoyment in receiving multiple different sets from 'back in the day. Also I'm a very nervous about letting the kids in my life play with my MOC's for fear they will crash and break them. My 1000-1200 brick engines would be a pain to reassemble, compared to the 300 odds pieces that make up a boxed set engine (which comes with printed instructions they can folllow themselves). 

[Carefree_Dude]

Yes, for two reasons 

1: To strip them of their power functions 
2: To continue to support the train line, and hope Lego releases something I'd enjoy eventually

[cptkent]

“Will I buy them”?

Probably - although the last two city trains I skipped. I just didn’t find them appealing.

My reasons for probably buying these two sets:

 - I don’t mind the designs.

 - For the new BT control.

If the new BT control system measures up to expectations/ potential, I may retrofit it to a lot of other trains I have. I’ll get these two to evaluate it, and decide from there.

As an AFOL train fan and MOC builder, all I want from LEGO is basic sets (for the kids) and bricks that I can source for my own designs. I love the advanced trains them make, but don’t expect them. And I know the system has more potential, but I see third party suppliers being more helpful there with regards to what an AFOL specially needs.

Edited March 30, 2018 by cptkent
Last paragraph

[Hod Carrier]

I think we’re kidding ourselves if we believe that we’re a large sector that TLG needs to take notice of. Trains is probably the least well supported theme they produce. It’s perhaps not the most scientific measure, but just look at the relative size of this forum compared to the others on Eurobricks. So why should TLG feel any great motivation to pander to what we want (especially when we’re so divided amongst ourselves with respect to what we want)?

I’ve said elsewhere that I’m happy as long as TLG produce train parts, and that’s what they are doing. Buying a whole set just to extract the PF components seems like overkill to me, but I respect those who are intending to do this. What I don’t see is any reason why I should buy sets I don’t want simply to prove my loyalty and support to the theme.

[JEB314 (James)]

I'll be waiting until the sets become available at c.20%-30% off, then I will consider them principally for parts...

(I bought 3 of the high speed train set - 60051, back last year around Black Friday for under half RRP - £53.33.)

Really I'm going to wait until a detailed review of the new power functions comes out, or at least all dimensions become available. To me, the size of the battery box is very important, (hopefully 4×8×3 ish), as it will affect my mocs for years to come, also whether the wires plug in on the top or one end has an impact on projects I already have in development!

- Separate Point -

I think there is one thing most train AFOLs can agree on is we want a steam engine! Many won't care what style, colour, theme/franchise its linked with, as long as it looks like a steam train and has the right wheels! (I need those large flanged drivers! BBB wheels are good, but just not the same!) If it had train windows in a decent colour too I would probably lose my mind! (Dark Red?)

On that note, basically what I think Lego would be wise to do is: The Hogwarts Express, in 2019, in Dark Red, with EN style wheels, longer tender than last time, power functions add-on capability, EN style carriage, and in terms of set look, possibly in the style of the Lone Ranger train set with track and a structure, but instead of a water tower, maybe a short Hogsmead Station platform!

No joke, I would buy 3 to 5 on release if they did that!

Sorry, went a bit off topic...

- Anyway - 

What do you think Lego could do in one train set to keep a reasonable number of people happy?

 

[Stefaneris]

I think while reading this thread, that a lot of people are unhappy with the sets. But we shouldn't forget that these trains are aimed at children, like the 100th police and fire station most Afols don't like either. If we take a look at Afol themed sets, like Modular Buildings, Star Wars UCS and so on, we have detailed sets with nice parts in nice colours.

I wrote myself that I don't buy the next train sets on the last page. However I generaly don't buy a lot of sets. I mostly buy parts via PaB or Bricklink.

What I miss from Lego is a simple set with a train base and wheels, where the buyer can build something they want. Something like the Set 3737. I guess this would also make it easier for a gift, since it would be a lot cheaper and together with some loose bricks, a child can build himself a train car.

 

[Haddock51]

12 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

 Trains is probably the least well supported theme they produce.

Maybe. However most likely the theme among those available today with the longest life cycle - 60 years and still alive!

[zephyr1934]

The new city trains (and most of the post-9v city trains) strike me as being more realistic than the city train offerings between 1995 and 2005 (4559, 4560, 4511). Sure, there is a certain charm of 4559, but not in terms of it's realism, it is almost a Blacktron train.

I really like the idea of a detailed Hogwarts Express, that can hit both the train enthusiasts and the HP fans. It would probably have to be normal red due to licensing restrictions, but if it were well done the set in common colors would not keep me from buying it (but it might keep me from buying multiple copies). I had heard from one of the first generation Lego Ambassadors that lego knew that the three axle tender on 10132 could not take the curves, but because of the terms of the license they had to release it with the known problem.

[3797]

I really have no problem whatsoever with those trains being aimed at kids. I did not expect them to be as good as the Creator Expert ones.

That being said: I'll wait for the parts list to go up on Bricklink. What I really don't need are yellow bogey plates. If the battery box and motor are being sold seperately at roughly the same prices as the current ones, then I'll go that route.

[SavaTheAggie]

I'd buy a set with a steam engine in it, but I have little interest in buying a box on wheels.  

--Tony

[peterab]

I'll buy at least one of the freight train and probably two of the passenger train. Both because I collect the train theme and because I want to keep the sales figures up. I might buy more depending on the cost and the availability of the bluetooth receiver, and the value of the other parts to me.

Having spoken to a few designers and community liaison reps from LEGO, I know the AFOL train fans are too insignificant in number to make a difference to LEGO's sales plans. The lack of new designer trains and the lack of success trains have on LEGO ideas should make that obvious. Train sales just don't compare to really successful sets like police and fire sets. Trains are a marginal theme and need as much support as we can give just to continue, it would be madness to expect a multinational company to pander to the whims of a group who regularly fail to get more than a thousand votes on a LEGO ideas proposal.

On the other hand LEGO do value AFOLs who build MOCs and give a lot of support to those who organise and attend public displays. They know the value seeing a large layout has in inspiring kids to purchase a train set.

[CarrollFilms]

The new train sets are pretty lackluster to say the least

[Toastie]

On ‎29‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 5:14 PM, Haddock51 said:

I have read and heard several comments over recent years from parents, expressing their disappointment and frustration about the lack of extensions after having bought the first Lego trains for their children.

"Swiftly go beyond"? To what?

@Haddock51

it took me some time of thinking (not of giving a "reasonable" answer!) - I do share all of your - let me call it (and only me) - sentiments. Your vision. Your experience. You certainly have >a lot< of experience of working in larger companies. Whenever I read your posts, I wish we could talk in person. Let me try to give a - not so reasonable answer to your question.

Swiftly beyond the - as @SavaTheAggie has commented - "buying a box on train wheels thing" (I very much liked that).

Maybe we should extrapolate a bit. So far we blamed everything on TLC: They apparently provide crap - and >we< are disappointed. As parents(?). But how is this: They provide simple, kids-oriented crap. Nevertheless, complete playable sets. But no add-ons, no separate cars ... Why don't we work more on educating >parents<? I have a terrible feeling: When you can't find it at Amazon, it does not exist. When you can't get a nicely shaped hopper wagon: Blame TLC. Why do parents not BrickLink for their children? No time? No interest? No believe? Parents complaining about "lack of extensions" should maybe become aware of alternatives such as the secondary LEGO market. And of bricks in boxes. Bad part: You need to figure it out yourself. That was the idea of LEGO anyway. 

I recently got interested in 4.5V and 12V trains. That is fun! And you know what? Because a stud her and there does not matter. Because the colors blue, red, white, black, green, yellow were truly colorful. Actually, my BrickLinked 4.5 steam train looks "beautiful". In its simplicity that is. And in my imagination it is a true steamer.  

But don't tell kids. These days are gone. Today, things are slick. Studless. Remotely controlled via smart phone. But not when you are >with them<. When you talk about the Magic. Many kids of friends and neighbors have been in my attic. You still can get them into the Magic. It may be different from what was "before" - but it works. Particularly when you tell them its okay when "things break". LEGOs don't break. You simply have to reassemble them.

"Swiftly go beyond" what TLC supplies. With non-catalog items that we, parents, should try to find. Today we can order virtually everything imaginable by touching the "check out" button.

In essence, I believe that parents got wasted. Not TLC. In my view, TLC has become - over the decades - a world-wide operating (big) profit making enterprise. Competing with world-wide operating enterprises far, far less caring about any extra "value": Customer base wise, being loyal, what not. Just caring about revenue.

And yes, in this regard I truly believe that a catalog from TLC is still - very different. Certainly from the past - but name another catalog that is organized that way and I stay (honesty) correct.

As I said - I fully agree to almost everything you posted.

With very best regards,
Thorsten     

[Bartosz]

10 hours ago, Toastie said:

Why do parents not BrickLink for their children? No time? No interest? No believe? Parents complaining about "lack of extensions" should maybe become aware of alternatives such as the secondary LEGO market. And of bricks in boxes.

I've recently started doing this. But I believe one needs to have real interest in this to spend time assembling parts, figuring out what to build - it's rather time consuming, and I don't see someone with no interest in LEGO (but kids interested in it) trying to do this.

On top of that, I came out rather disappointed that I wasn't able to optimize the prices in a way that bricklinked stuff (smaller sets) would come out cheaper than off the shelf sets (larger than what I've assembled).

Fun fact about doing this "for kids". Somehow my kids were more interested in sorting bricks with me (of course they fought a bit over it), checking whether order is correct, washing them, than actual building :D

[Haddock51]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎15 at 11:12 PM, Toastie said:

@Haddock51

it took me some time of thinking (not of giving a "reasonable" answer!) - I do share all of your - let me call it (and only me) - sentiments. Your vision. Your experience. You certainly have >a lot< of experience of working in larger companies. Whenever I read your posts, I wish we could talk in person. Let me try to give a - not so reasonable answer to your question.

Swiftly beyond the - as @SavaTheAggie has commented - "buying a box on train wheels thing" (I very much liked that).

Maybe we should extrapolate a bit. So far we blamed everything on TLC: They apparently provide crap - and >we< are disappointed. As parents(?). But how is this: They provide simple, kids-oriented crap. Nevertheless, complete playable sets. But no add-ons, no separate cars ... Why don't we work more on educating >parents<? I have a terrible feeling: When you can't find it at Amazon, it does not exist. When you can't get a nicely shaped hopper wagon: Blame TLC. Why do parents not BrickLink for their children? No time? No interest? No believe? Parents complaining about "lack of extensions" should maybe become aware of alternatives such as the secondary LEGO market. And of bricks in boxes. Bad part: You need to figure it out yourself. That was the idea of LEGO anyway. 

I recently got interested in 4.5V and 12V trains. That is fun! And you know what? Because a stud her and there does not matter. Because the colors blue, red, white, black, green, yellow were truly colorful. Actually, my BrickLinked 4.5 steam train looks "beautiful". In its simplicity that is. And in my imagination it is a true steamer.  

But don't tell kids. These days are gone. Today, things are slick. Studless. Remotely controlled via smart phone. But not when you are >with them<. When you talk about the Magic. Many kids of friends and neighbors have been in my attic. You still can get them into the Magic. It may be different from what was "before" - but it works. Particularly when you tell them its okay when "things break". LEGOs don't break. You simply have to reassemble them.

"Swiftly go beyond" what TLC supplies. With non-catalog items that we, parents, should try to find. Today we can order virtually everything imaginable by touching the "check out" button.

In essence, I believe that parents got wasted. Not TLC. In my view, TLC has become - over the decades - a world-wide operating (big) profit making enterprise. Competing with world-wide operating enterprises far, far less caring about any extra "value": Customer base wise, being loyal, what not. Just caring about revenue.

And yes, in this regard I truly believe that a catalog from TLC is still - very different. Certainly from the past - but name another catalog that is organized that way and I stay (honesty) correct.

As I said - I fully agree to almost everything you posted.

With very best regards,
Thorsten     

@Toastie

I basically share your comments/statements re. parents and children. However, this "side track" probably is outside the context of this thread and should be pursued in some other thread.

As a MOCer, I have made my points. The sad news so far is that - with a few exceptions - it seems like I am pretty much alone with my thoughts and visions as a Train AFOL and MOCer. 

Tough luck. However, I have no interest what so ever in becoming a missionary ... And I will certainly not convert to a children train collector with a close to desperate hope that these "donations" will convince TLG to continue showing mercy for these poor train freaks ...

Having the development and history over the past years in fresh mind, my guess is that TLG most probably will have abandonned the Lego Train theme within 7 - 10 years. However - with or without TLG - the Lego Train fenomena will continue to live, for many more years!

 

Toastie, why don't you plan to spend some vacation in Sweden and visit my home with the 9V Extreme layout? That would provide an excellent opportunity for talks and discussions!

Edited April 17, 2018 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

14 hours ago, Bartosz said:

I've recently started doing this. But I believe one needs to have real interest in this to spend time assembling parts, figuring out what to build - it's rather time consuming, and I don't see someone with no interest in LEGO (but kids interested in it) trying to do this.

On top of that, I came out rather disappointed that I wasn't able to optimize the prices in a way that bricklinked stuff (smaller sets) would come out cheaper than off the shelf sets (larger than what I've assembled).

Fun fact about doing this "for kids". Somehow my kids were more interested in sorting bricks with me (of course they fought a bit over it), checking whether order is correct, washing them, than actual building :D

Yes: Real interest. Figuring it out. Time consuming. You need find that valuable in some way or the other.  

In the days of LEGO as a miracle thing, this translated to: Fun. Being involved. Having a good time. And that was it.

The bricks are essentially the same - but have become so much more diverse - in shape and in number. As have our demands as AFOLs and MOCers. A kid though may not follow that path. You basically nailed it: Your kids had fun when sorting blocks. That is nice! Next step would be assembling the blocks - this way or the other - the outcome is by definition wonderful. Then go back and forth on individual aspects with them - and then wait until they take off. Or not ...

But again: I certainly would buy the current sets for my kids. No doubt. Thing is I have two daughters, 20 and 22 years old. They are into other things - and were all the time. This is why I took over

All the best,
Thorsten

    

2 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

Toastie, why don't you plan to spend some vacation in Sweden and visit my home with the 9V Extreme layout? That would provide an excellent opportunity for talks and discussions!

Believe me, I'd love to do that. And I am sure it would be a wonderful and rewarding time.

All the best
Thorsten 

[AE bricks]

On 3/22/2018 at 8:22 PM, sed6 said:

I cut my teeth on 60051and 60052 just this past fall so I'm new to Lego trains. I had been eagerly awaiting Legos new train releases this spring or summer but now not so much. In the past few months I've designed and built many of my own engines and cars and with each new one I make the desire to buy one of Legos new sets diminishes. Don't get me wrong, I still want to support Lego and do want to try out their new PF offerings, but as I become more and more experienced at creating my own the desire to buy a complete train set lessens. What say you all, will you experienced MOCer's buy the new sets?

I would buy them if the price is reasonable, especially to obtain the power up Bluetooth gear. I would sell some of the parts i don 't need like curved track and minifigs. The new cargo train looks like fun for children but I don 't see why i would want a crane on top of a wagon or that vault with the terrible design TLG came up with. 

A boycot won't work, thousands of sets will be bought just to break up and sell as parts on bricklink. Plus 4 years is a long time ... Lets hope a great expert creator train or new Maersk train comes to light in 2019.