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Power Functions 2.0 connectors not compatible with existing PF....that stinks!!!

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As I said, old "RC" system (sets 9897 and 7898) had the same solution: taps on "up" button increased speed for one level par tap and taps on "down" decreased speed for one level.

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I interprete that info more as "Hold button A and it will accelerate, hold button B and it will deccelerate". At least that's what it says in German on Promobricks.de.

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I have quite different fears related to the new system.

Compatibility is one thing, PF is compatible with 9V, PF trains are using only two cables of the four introduced with PF-accessories, and it makes compatible it with 9V system, but even halved PF-cable middle parts can be screwed into 12V stuff.

But this is the fear of expert builders mixing the different systems to get the most of this hobby they can.

I'm pretty more afraod of the new train motor - do you all remember what replaced the successful and good performing 9V train motor. So, yes, I'm afraid we get something less powerful, less good as our good and now old PF train motor.

My other fear is based on the image goes around the internet about the battery box with integrated Buetooth controller. It seems that one port can only take one motor, light, etc, while PF-cables could have been stacked on each other, and you coulds easily build a dual-motor loco. Or what if I need more lights on my train? How can I plug more in?

For third - both AAA batzery box and rechargeable one last not too much when running heavy, long, 8 wide or woder trains. I have seen no images circling around about the future AA-box, which was also a useful stuff in PF - actually ot doesn't turn off automatically after 2 hours, it is really annoying to turn it on when the loco is in the middle of the layout, or in tunnel.

Based on the leaked images I'm not impressed - PF was introduced for trains in 2009 to unify the electric parts of LEGO toys, and now a new standard is appearing where trains should be merged. 

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56 minutes ago, Ashi Valkoinen said:

My other fear is based on the image goes around the internet about the battery box with integrated Buetooth controller. It seems that one port can only take one motor, light, etc, while PF-cables could have been stacked on each other, and you coulds easily build a dual-motor loco. Or what if I need more lights on my train? How can I plug more in?

This is my primary issue with the new system; the plugs can't be stacked (if they're the WeDo 2.0/Boost type, which I don't see why they wouldn't be). Multiple lights or motors on the same socket aren't possible, nor can we have multiple receivers attached to one battery if the receiver and sockets are built into said battery. Models with more more than 2 independently controlled functions suddenly become twice as heavy.

On the other hand, the battery/receiver pack should be more compact then at present, making building shunting locomotives such as @LegoMonorailFan's recent BR 08 easier (especially as the receiver line-of-sight issue is alleviated!).

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7 hours ago, NathanR said:

Translating the article to English, I see a line "At the fair, for example, the "A" button accelerated the train and slowed it down with the "B" button."  So I would guess that you keep pushing the A button to make the train go faster, and keep pushing the B-button to make the train go slower. Similar to the current train rotary knob controls.

While I'm not much of a train fan, I'm curious to see this new system in action, I can't wait for some proper reviews.

Is there an emergency stop button in the description? 

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Dear All,

I suggest that we relax. Calm down. There is BrickLink in this World.

When PF was introduced, people were crying about losing so many things. First 12V was disappearing, then 9V, now PF. Nothing disappears - the moment PF2.0 is getting the attention of the willing LEGO freaks all around the planet, PF will be cheaply available all over the place. Provided we have the nerves to - simply wait. And calm down.

When the Mindstorms RCX was dying, I was freaking out. Bought RCX PBricks for $50 as was soooo happy. Today you get them for $3 a piece. "Not working" is the reason. Well. Maybe people in this fast spinning world simply forgot how to get them alive. Most of them do work.

And then: How many people were desperately waiting for TLC to come up with "wireless"? With BT? We can scroll down this forum and we will find many, many entries wishing BT would be available for train control. Oh how much IR sucked - back then.

Today, there are so many third party products available - BuWhat, LightBizz, and - you count them. What on Earth are we thinking? "They" observe and think: Oh, how nice; how can we make it cheaper for train heads to get going? Screw our revenue, this is about making this world a better place???

I don't think so. To be honest, I was waiting for the Big One. Never happened though; 3D printing here, injection molding there, BT functionality somewhere else. Oh, there were no "LEGO" imprints on the studs - but I thought: What is the difference to plastic parts so many people are whining about? Mostly from China?

So, they made their own thing. Learned from the Open Source. Is anybody really upset about that? Considering that they have a considerable number of people on their payroll?

Just relax. PF stuff will be cheaply available for many, many years to come. And so many hacks into PF2 as well. This is what the internet has changed. And then: After another decade, people will be upset - because TLG is announcing PF3.0 - or whatever.

All the best
Thorsten

 

 

     

 

  

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Hey, Toastie, the problem is that you're taking what people wanted to an extreme.

I'm sure PF2.0 will be really awesome, and it's true that PF will live on for some time, but when people said - for example - they wanted BT, all TLG  had to do was make a BT receiver.  They didn't have to blow up the whole line of PF components.

What's partly at issue, here, is also cost.  Some people are happy with their Sbricks and what-nots, but those things are really expensive for most casual users.  So the fear, from me, is that you HAVE to buy a rechargeable in order to get BT; it's $80 for the battery and charger (which, at $30, is highway robbery), so a lot of us use alternatives, like the AAA box or third party/homemade adapters (so no, we don't care that it doesn't say "LEGO" on it).

I do have a big agreement with you, though, when you tell people to relax - we don't even know what it will all be yet, and we're already getting all up in arms about it.  It may not be too bad for those of us with large PF collections, and, in any event, I'm sure it'll be a step up in a lot of ways.

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I know this is going to be bad this comment, but the Lepin remotes and Receivers are BT and they work with current PF motors.

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I’m also wondering what the flap is all about.

Every generation of train builder has started off building to the power standard of the day, and those who use the now defunct 12V and 9V systems have long since found ways around the change in track and power systems, not to mention the changing plug designs. If you already have a large stock of PF trains and you find that system works well for you then you’ll probably stick with it and only change up to PF2 for new builds as the supply of PF parts becomes thinner. But the two systems can happily co-exist, just as PF trains can run on 9V or 12V track.

But PF2 is not so very different to PF in that it is a remote controlled battery driven system. OK so the plugs might be different, but the principles at least remain the same. However, concerns about plug types, battery life and prices are still premature. It’s not even certain that there won’t be other battery boxes made available with Bluetooth receivers in the future. Until we see something concrete from TLG we can do nothing but speculate wildly. Let’s not forget that TLG are trialling this with trains, so I don’t see the range of PF components being retired until PF2 is rolled out to cover other applications such as Technic, by which time the range of PF2 components is likely to have grown.

In the meantime I’m sure it won’t be too long until we see third party PF to PF2 adapters. I seem to recall mention of just such an adapter being an official release, so the option to stack plugs will still be available for anyone changing up to a PF2 battery/receiver even if the official PF2 plugs do not permit it.

Edited by Hod Carrier

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5 hours ago, ColletArrow said:

This is my primary issue with the new system; the plugs can't be stacked (if they're the WeDo 2.0/Boost type, which I don't see why they wouldn't be). Multiple lights or motors on the same socket aren't possible, nor can we have multiple receivers attached to one battery if the receiver and sockets are built into said battery. Models with more more than 2 independently controlled functions suddenly become twice as heavy.

On the other hand, the battery/receiver pack should be more compact then at present, making building shunting locomotives such as @LegoMonorailFan's recent BR 08 easier (especially as the receiver line-of-sight issue is alleviated!).

Let's think about this for a moment:   If the current WeDo 2.0 system is a 3v system, and it uses 6-conductor plugs, why would TLG use the same connectors on a presumably 9v upcoming PF 2.0 system?   I can just see in my head a small child who thinks, "Hey, this WeDo 2.0 widget uses the same connector as this PF 2.0 train.  I wonder what will happen when I plug one into the other?"    If the connector is identical, some child WILL try to plug those two systems together.   Most 3v components will not take kindly to a 9v supply, unless there are some pretty robust protections built in...

Of course, I'm assuming the PF 2.0 will be 9v based on the battery requirements of the new trains, which were stated earlier in this topic as being 10 AAA batteries (one more than the current PF 1.0 sets -- 3 in the controller and 6 in the AAA battery box powering the train).    I cannot see moving to a 10.5v motor specification, so the extra battery most likely will be in the controller operate at 4.5v.   

Although the connectors TLG uses for PF 2.0 might be different than those from PF 1.0, it doesn't make sense for them to be identical to the WeDo 2.0 connectors.   Thoughts?   Am I off base here?

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29 minutes ago, icemorons said:

....

Although the connectors TLG uses for PF 2.0 might be different than those from PF 1.0, it doesn't make sense for them to be identical to the WeDo 2.0 connectors.   Thoughts?   Am I off base here?

No, you're not off base.  And it's a good example of why we should just wait for the specs.

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9 hours ago, icemorons said:

Let's think about this for a moment:   If the current WeDo 2.0 system is a 3v system, and it uses 6-conductor plugs, why would TLG use the same connectors on a presumably 9v upcoming PF 2.0 system?   I can just see in my head a small child who thinks, "Hey, this WeDo 2.0 widget uses the same connector as this PF 2.0 train.  I wonder what will happen when I plug one into the other?"    If the connector is identical, some child WILL try to plug those two systems together.   Most 3v components will not take kindly to a 9v supply, unless there are some pretty robust protections built in...

That was my first thought too, that they were going to a 3v system because the new WeDo does too. Still could happen, but it is also possible that with the two more wires that PF2 has two power lines, one for high voltage (9v) and one for low (3v). But who knows?

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Lego regularly switches its power systems so this is not surprising after a decade.  The Bluetooth interface is a welcome change for show operators where line of sight IR control has been a challenge.  And expectedly builders who have become accustomed to the current system will be concerned... but will also adapt to the new one, and/or purchase older system components.  

I still run 12v motor locomotives which have been upgraded through the years from 9v power pickup tenders to PF battery tenders.  Its a small price to splice an extension cable to adapt older motors (assuming PF2.0 extension cables will be offered).  The question of voltages is a valid concern.  If Lego switches all motors to 3v then that would indeed be a disruptive change.

- BMW

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@fred67 and @Hod Carrier ,

thank you very much for "taking my take" seriously! I really appreciate that.

Now, with regard to cost, I share all your concerns. Just because people may be fortunate to not worry that much (for me this is nowadays the case - I don't want to be arrogant, but there were extended times in my life when extra $10 for ABS were simply >not< within reach), many folks do. From this perspective, every systematic TLG change hurts - a lot. But then creativity, imagination, willing to go the extra mile, simply try it (and >take< it, if it did not work out!), may be a route to corner - apparently "big" changes. There are ways: Don't buy the 10V wall wart form LEGO - it is a scam. Has been reported here on TrainTech. Buy a $3 DC wall wart instead. Search, research, follow the TrainTech index. There are solutions for almost every question asked. >Research<. And: Don't panic. Ask.

3V? Well then they screwed up. PF2.0 is envisioned for the Technic freaks as well. Give them 3V and they will go nuts. After all, (DC) power is voltage times amperage. Let the WeDo kids do what they want. But when you want to motorize a serious Technic model - 3V is - flat. Low. Limp.

Let us follow and look very closely. And then retrofit to our needs (if necessary at all). Record what we have tried and learned - here on TrainTech. Folks like Mark Bellis, Philo, HoMa, Sava, LT12V, and so many more have provided uncountable solutions. I am happy to provide (cheap) solutions as well - as are so many others. This is what this forum is all about!

All the best,
Thorsten          

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Frankly I don’t buy the 3V line. As @Toastie says, it’s just not going to be man enough for the job. I may be misremembering it, but has it just come from speculation about the plugs and/or battery box bearing some resemblance to the 3V WeDo versions?

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31 minutes ago, Hod Carrier said:

Frankly I don’t buy the 3V line. As @Toastie says, it’s just not going to be man enough for the job. I may be misremembering it, but has it just come from speculation about the plugs and/or battery box bearing some resemblance to the 3V WeDo versions?

I think it is because the plugs look very similar (if not identical) to the WeDo plugs, though that's based on the Promobricks article from earlier in the thread - not sure how reliable a description that is. I still think it's 9V, for two reasons: compatibility between PF and PF2.0 (again, fitting a PCB with a boost converter and appropriate supporting components into a PF-size cable or plug is expensive), as well as the info from earlier on that it'll take 10 batteries - presumably, that's six for a battery box and four for a remote, at 9V and 6V respectively for 1.5V cells (i.e., AA and AAA).

On 2/13/2018 at 4:25 PM, Toastie said:

Dear All,

I suggest that we relax. Calm down. There is BrickLink in this World.

But what am I supposed to do with all this perfectly good outrage? Throw it away and waste it? No sir, that's no good for the planet.

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8 hours ago, Phoxtane said:

I think it is because the plugs look very similar (if not identical) to the WeDo plugs, though that's based on the Promobricks article from earlier in the thread - not sure how reliable a description that is. I still think it's 9V, for two reasons: compatibility between PF and PF2.0 (again, fitting a PCB with a boost converter and appropriate supporting components into a PF-size cable or plug is expensive), as well as the info from earlier on that it'll take 10 batteries - presumably, that's six for a battery box and four for a remote, at 9V and 6V respectively for 1.5V cells (i.e., AA and AAA).

The LEGO WeDo runs on 2x AA batteries, hence the 3V discussion, and introduced a new motor similar to the m-motor (45303/21980). The newer LEGO Boost runs on 6x AAA and also introduced a new same-sized motor, but squarer and with more studs on top (6181852). However, from what I can tell, both systems use the same connectors. I agree it's highly unlikely they'll run the trains or anything else on 3V, they'd be far better off to use the 9V system from Boost. Therefore, it raises the question of how (if at all) WeDo and Boost/the rest of PF 2.0 are supposed to interact, if they have apparently identical plugs and yet different voltages.

Out of interest, how much speculation/worry was there before the introduction of PF 1.0? I wasn't around here then. I guess I'll miss PF 1.0 once it's gone, as it was the first power system I used.

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Identical plugs does not mean that all the components are cross-compatible as the use of the pins inside the connectors could be dramatically different to prevent damage due to incorrect voltages being applied. Six pins sounds like a lot for WeDo when you consider that the motor functionality is not much more than you get with PF. I can understand the possible need for extra pins for EV3 when you consider that the EV3 motors also contain sensors to accurately record and control small inputs, but I would imagine that WeDo, like PF, has a lot of unused pins.

Although the discussion is interesting, I'm not sure that there is any plan for all of these systems to interact. Therefore there is no need for cross-compatibility.

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4 hours ago, ColletArrow said:

Out of interest, how much speculation/worry was there before the introduction of PF 1.0? I wasn't around here then. I guess I'll miss PF 1.0 once it's gone, as it was the first power system I used.

The difference is when PF 1.0 was designed, a committee of Train Afols where consulted on what was needed. I don't know of any work done the same for PF 2.0. 

The concern I have as a "Purist" is I WILL NOT cut up cables, so I am hoping to see a converter cable as has been stated will be available from Lego.

Last year I purchased 15 rechargeable battery packs and 25 train motors, I was hopping that they would bring out a BT version of the IR receiver so I would just plug it in and play.

The new controller is welcome, especially since the IR one has its sender lens covered by every single child's fingers that picks it up.

Its very understandable that a lot of us are feeling anxious about the new system, we want to know how it will work and how we can use it. 

Things like running two motors and lights is a concern if the BT receiver only has two ports, maybe we can use the converter cable to stack the accessories, but what happens when you only have only parts from the new PF 2.0 system, how do you run two motors and lights with only two outlets in the receiver/battery box.  

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On 12/02/2018 at 1:59 AM, M_slug357 said:

 

Lego, as a company, is trying to cut off third-party products like S-brick , BuWizz, and PFx Brick, much in the same manner that Apple cut off headphone jacks on their more recent version of iPhone in an effort to coerce consumers to buy directly from them.

1

I don't think they are, and they would never succeed anyway. This new system will probably need to be in place for 10 years for compatibility. At best they are only just catching up with the likes of S-brick. Third party products will improve on this new offering very quickly. Third party products will adapt to go beyond what LEGO is doing now. Even if LEGO patents the designs, third party parts will still be designed to be compatible without infringing the patent.

Although at those suggested prices, I feel sorry for purists that will only use LEGO parts and not modify them. While third party solutions are expensive they are not as bad as LEGO. But it is relatively straightforward to build your own transmitter / receiver with a couple of cheap arduinos and supplies from China and that way you get to choose everything - functions, sound, power source, etc. Pricing for official wall-wart / AC adapters is just crazy considering how many most people have at home. Anything not being charged or powered via micro-USB these days seems so wasteful. Everyone has loads of the chargers and shouldn't need to be forced into buying more specialist ones that can only be used for one product.

But definitely looking forward to seeing the specs.

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I believe I heard way back that PF2, WeDo2 and mindstorms would all converge to the same plug. As such, I would expect that you could plug a sensor or motor from any one system in to a power supply from another. Given that Boost is 9v I am more convinced that the devices have a high voltage and low voltage power line, much like the current PF has a control and power lines right now.

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41 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

I believe I heard way back that PF2, WeDo2 and mindstorms would all converge to the same plug. As such, I would expect that you could plug a sensor or motor from any one system in to a power supply from another. Given that Boost is 9v I am more convinced that the devices have a high voltage and low voltage power line, much like the current PF has a control and power lines right now.

https://education.lego.com/en-au/support/wedo-2/faqs#backward

Quote - from FAQ - 

Is this a new plug system?
Yes, this is the new LEGO Power Functions plug that has been optimized also to meet potential future needs.

What does that mean for the existing plug systems on other Power Function and MINDSTORMS products? Will they also be changed?
Yes, eventually we will convert to the new plug system after a transition period. The exact timing of this transition has not been determined.

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Well, the connector issue with 3V and 9V systems is not new, in the past you could easily try to fry a 4,5v motor connecting it to 12v - but it was a really hard job - probably these newer systems have some kind of embedded protection.

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