Reza

Help: when were your 12v motors released? Let's complete the table!

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Hello everybody,

Another major step in correcting and/or completing inventories of 12V trains: 12V TRAIN MOTORS!
I thank you in advance for your help. Few people have already helped me in various ways. Thank you too! :-)
Since a couple of weeks ago, many improvements are achieved on inventories of 12V trains. Please check bricklink (bb12v, bb12va, bb12vb, bb12vc). But much more work should still be done.
There are 3 types of red 12V motors and 4 types of black ones, depending on their contact holes or the pin located on the top. (see photos below)
Type 1: bb12va Electric, Train Motor 12V Modern Type I with 2 round contact holes with integrated pin

Type 2: bb12vb Electric, Train Motor 12V Modern Type II with 3 round contact holes with integrated pin

Type 3 bb12vb Electric, Train Motor 12V Modern Type II with 3 round contact holes with separated pin

Type 4 bb12vc Electric, Train Motor 12V Modern Type III with 3 slotted contact holes with separated pin

   Note that for now, the types 2 and 3 are not distinguished on bricklink, but I already requested to split bb12vb (by adding the type 3 and changing the name of type 2, as well types 1 and 4). They haven't yet replied to my request.
   Please check your 12V motors: carefully check the type and write down the date exactly as it is written (see underneath your motors). For example, 36 5 means 36th week in 1985; 03 4 means third week in 1984, and so forth. Then give me your data. For example, I would like to get your data as follows:
Black type 1: 12802, 26 0, 19 0
Black type 2: 42 81, 15 81
Black type 3: 27 2, 17 5
Black type 4: 23 0, 37 2
Red type 1: 23 0
Red type 2: 25 2, 49 2
Red type 3: 07 4, 39 3

(when checking my own motor, I myself confused the types; or a friend wrote down the date incorrectly, so please double check). If needed, I may ask you photos LATER (not now). Thank you in advance!

See photos of all types, red and black, for comparison:

Numbered black and red 12V motors from top

 

Variations of Lego train 12V motors

 

Below, I give you the data I have gathered so far. In the first comment below this post, I give some remarks concerning what  I have found and what we still need to find out. Thank you in advance!

12v motors 1980 and 198112v motors 1982 and 198312v motors 1984 and 198512v motors 1986 and 198712v motors 1988 and 198912v motors 1990 and 1991

 

There is no in-consistency between the dates so far. TLG didn't produce two types at the same time; indeed they started a new type once they ran out of the previous type. However, the move from type 2 to type 3 happened for black motor in 27th week in 1982 (or 25th or 26th week?), but I have a red motor of type 2 from 39th week in 1982. So the red motor type 2 was released after the first black type 3 was released! This should be for this obvious reason: as the black motor was needed more than the red one, they had more red motors in their stock, so the move to type 3 happened later than the same move for the black motors.
Questions:
1) Did the train 7750 come also with the red motor type 2? Both 7730 and 7750 were released between 1980-2 and we know that 7730 came also with type 2 motor. but all trains 7750 that I have seen came with type 1 motor.
2) Did the train 7760 come also with the black motor type 3? we know it came with types 1 and 2.
3) Did the train 7725 come with the black motor type 1 in its earliest releases between January-August 1981? We already know that it came with motor types 2 and 3.
4) I strongly believe that the trains 7735 and 7745 came also with motor type 4 in their releases between 1989-90. We need however evidence. (evidence for bricklink means a photo of a sealed or MISB set)
If you have (or you know somebody) any sealed or MISB 12v train, specially 7730, 7725, 7750, 7735, 7745, please let me know. Your help is very needed.

Edited by Reza

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Hi Reza,

thanks for putting all this together! I checked most of my 12v train motors, some are very scratchy so I can not read the production date. But for your list I have:

Red Type 1: 16 0
Red Type 1: 22 0
Red Type 1: 29 0
Red Type 1: 32 0
Red Type 1: 39 0
Red Type 1: 39 0
Red Type 2: 25 2
Red Type 3: 30 3
Red Type 3: 39 3
Red Type 3: 41 2
Red Type 3: 40 4

Black Type 2: 15 81
Black Type 2: 47 81
Black Type 2: 3 82
Black Type 2: 21 2
Black Type 3: 37 2
Black Type 3: 15 3
Black Type 3: 37 3
Black Type 3: 20 5
Black Type 3: 45 5
Black Type 4: 27 9

The Red Type 1: 16 0 is from a nearly MISB 7750 (most bags still closed, motor never run so far). So I am very sure that this motor came with a 7750 set. For all the other motors I can not tell from which original set they came.

I got 7735 and 7745 from my childhood but I can not say which motors they had originally. Overall I found only one Type 4 motor in my collection.

And as long as I keep this 7865 sealed I can not tell what version is in this one?

32017883774_0eaa1a35da_z.jpg

Holger

 

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11 hours ago, HoMa said:

Hi Reza,

thanks for putting all this together! I checked most of my 12v train motors, some are very scratchy so I can not read the production date. But for your list I have:

Red Type 1: 16 0
Red Type 1: 22 0
Red Type 1: 29 0
Red Type 1: 32 0
Red Type 1: 39 0
Red Type 1: 39 0
Red Type 2: 25 2
Red Type 3: 30 3
Red Type 3: 39 3
Red Type 3: 41 2
Red Type 3: 40 4

Black Type 2: 15 81
Black Type 2: 47 81
Black Type 2: 3 82
Black Type 2: 21 2
Black Type 3: 37 2
Black Type 3: 15 3
Black Type 3: 37 3
Black Type 3: 20 5
Black Type 3: 45 5
Black Type 4: 27 9

The Red Type 1: 16 0 is from a nearly MISB 7750 (most bags still closed, motor never run so far). So I am very sure that this motor came with a 7750 set. For all the other motors I can not tell from which original set they came.

I got 7735 and 7745 from my childhood but I can not say which motors they had originally. Overall I found only one Type 4 motor in my collection.

And as long as I keep this 7865 sealed I can not tell what version is in this one?

32017883774_0eaa1a35da_z.jpg

Holger

 

Holger, Thanks for checking these.
But Red Type 3: 41 2 doesn't look correct.

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1st motors batch:

Black type 3:  10 4
Black type 4:  23 8

Red type 3:  30 3

I will check other motors next time I'm going to my layout place

 

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Here it is :

Black type 1 19 0

Black type 1 30 0

Black type 2 15 81

Black type 3 17 4

Black type 3 25 5

Black type 3 29 5

Black type 3 10 6

Black type 4 13 9

Red type 2 14 82

Red type 3 02 3

Edited by Bloodwave
copy/paste issue

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17 minutes ago, Bloodwave said:

Here it is :

Black type 1 19 0

Black type 1 30 0

Black type 2 15 81

Black type 3 17 4

Black type 3 25 5

Black type 3 29 5

Black type 3 10 6

Black type 3 13 9

Red type 2 14 82

Red type 3 02 3

Merci beaucoup pour vérifier et me donner ces infos. C'est très gentil :-)
Could you please double check this one:
Black type 3 13 9
Doesn't look right. Maybe you meant type 4? If it is right, could you make a photo of top and bottom? (actually two photos would be needed)

This one improved my data: Red type 3 02 3
Great! Thanks. Could you take two photos of this one?
Do you know your red motor comes with what set?

Edited by Reza

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16 hours ago, Reza said:

Merci beaucoup pour vérifier et me donner ces infos. C'est très gentil :-)
 

De rien, avec plaisir :)

16 hours ago, Reza said:

Could you please double check this one:
Black type 3 13 9
Doesn't look right. Maybe you meant type 4? 

 

Yeah, sorry. seems to be a copy/paste issue. It's of course a type 4.

16 hours ago, Reza said:

This one improved my data: Red type 3 02 3
Great! Thanks. Could you take two photos of this one?
Do you know your red motor comes with what set?

Please see the photos below. This motor came with a second hand 7727, I think it is the original motor.

40082389552_60bcf7e7d1_n.jpgWP_20180206_12_55_09_Pro by M G, sur Flickr

40115134981_a7a16e138a_n.jpgWP_20180206_12_55_50_Pro by M G, sur Flickr

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Hi,

interesting  analysis!

At first I'll add data of my red 12V motors, the black ones will follow later:

red type I: 22 0, 26 0, 27 0, 31 0, 32 0, 33 0, 25 2

red type III: 27 4

 

Greetings

ThomaS

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4 hours ago, tsi said:

Hi,

interesting  analysis!

At first I'll add data of my red 12V motors, the black ones will follow later:

red type I: 22 0, 26 0, 27 0, 31 0, 32 0, 33 0, 25 2

red type III: 27 4

 

Greetings

ThomaS

Thanks Thomas. Dd you know any of these motors comes with what set?

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2nd batch of my motors:

black  Type 3    25 6
red     Type 1    27 0
red     Type 1    16 0
red     Type 2    25 2
black  Type 3    49 8
black  Type 1    29 0
red     Type 3    39 3
black  Type 4    25 8
black  Type 3    44 5
black  Type 4    22 8
black  Type 3    37 3
red      Type 3    34 3
red      Type 3    02 3
black   Type 1    35 0
black   Type 3    36 8

Edited by freestorm

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4 hours ago, freestorm said:

2nd batch of my motors:

black  Type 3    25 6
red     Type 1    27 0
red     Type 1    16 0
red     Type 2    25 2
black  Type 3    49 8
black  Type 1    29 0
red     Type 3    39 3
black  Type 4    25 8
black  Type 3    44 5
black  Type 4    22 8
black  Type 3    37 3
red      Type 3    34 3
red      Type 3    02 3
black   Type 1    35 0
black   Type 3    36 8

Thanks Freestorm

Are these correct? Could you double check them please?
black  Type 3    49 8
black   Type 3    36 8

If they are correct, could you take photos of them?

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I don't have access to my 12v motor right now but whenever I can get to it ill send over my data.

Cool idea!

-RailCo

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18 hours ago, Reza said:

Thanks Freestorm

Are these correct? Could you double check them please?
black  Type 3    49 8
black   Type 3    36 8

If they are correct, could you take photos of them?

Okay. I will post photos next time I'm going to my layout

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Here are all of my motors. I can not confirm the set origin on any of them:

B2

28/81

R3

34/3

R2

49/2

B3

28/2

B3

03/6

B3

18/6

R1

35/0

B2

24/2

B4

23/8

   

  B3

29/4

B3

45/2

R3

06/4

R1

17/0

B1

41/0

B2

22/81

B3

47/5

B3

16/8

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R1 15 0
R1 16 0
R1 23 0
R1 27 0
R1 32 0
R1 38 0
R1 39 0

B1 37 0
B2 25 81
B2 49 81
B3 04 6
B3 06 7
B3 14 3
B3 22 4
B3 26 5
B3 39 7
B3 43 5
B3 44 5
B4 18 8
B4 18 8
B4 27 9
B4 40 8

Hope this helps

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On 10.02.2018 at 4:27 PM, Reza said:

Thanks Freestorm

Are these correct? Could you double check them please?
black  Type 3    49 8
black   Type 3    36 8

If they are correct, could you take photos of them?

The requested pictures.

Black  Type 3    49 8:
This motor is on 7760, but as second hand, I don't know if it's the correct motor for this set

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/FreeStorm77/Misc/black_type3_49-8_1.jpg
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/FreeStorm77/Misc/black_type3_49-8_2.jpg
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/FreeStorm77/Misc/black_type3_49-8_3.jpg


 

Black   Type 3    36 8
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/FreeStorm77/Misc/black_type3_36-8_1.jpg
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/FreeStorm77/Misc/black_type3_36-8_2.jpg
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/FreeStorm77/Misc/black_type3_36-8_3.jpg

Edited by freestorm

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24 minutes ago, freestorm said:

I think he needs the top photos showing the other end, to distinguish the number/type of holes on the top! :)

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7 hours ago, freestorm said:

That was a great help; a very good and useful one. Merci beaucoup :-)
Now you opened my eyes to a mysterious inconsistency in 1988. There  are black motors of type 3 and 4 both made in 1988!

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5 hours ago, Paperballpark said:

Perhaps that was just the crossover year? Maybe one factory started making type 4 before the other?

Are there several factories?
12v trains were sold only in Europe back in 80s. Were there produced in different locations?! I thought all was done in Denmark.

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I don't know how many factories there were then, or where they were, but these days there's factories in Denmark, Hungary, Mexico, China, and I think there might be one in the Czech Republic as well.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/3/2018 at 2:18 AM, Reza said:

Questions:
1) Did the train 7750 come also with the red motor type 2? Both 7730 and 7750 were released between 1980-2 and we know that 7730 came also with type 2 motor. but all trains 7750 that I have seen came with type 1 motor.
2) Did the train 7760 come also with the black motor type 3? we know it came with types 1 and 2.
3) Did the train 7725 come with the black motor type 1 in its earliest releases between January-August 1981? We already know that it came with motor types 2 and 3.
4) I strongly believe that the trains 7735 and 7745 came also with motor type 4 in their releases between 1989-90. We need however evidence. (evidence for bricklink means a photo of a sealed or MISB set)
If you have (or you know somebody) any sealed or MISB 12v train, specially 7730, 7725, 7750, 7735, 7745, please let me know. Your help is very needed.

So far, the question 4 is almost answered: Based on the data I got, I was expecting to see 7735 and 7745 with motor type 4. I got recently many helps from an Italian 12v lover who has done many contributions in correcting inventories of 12v trains on bricklink. So I told him what I think about motor type 4 and asked him to check his photos. Then he gave me photos of a MISB 7745 coming with motor type 4.  This was my face when I received his email and saw the photos :sweet:
It is already added to the inventory of 7745:
https://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemInv.asp?S=7745-1
We need some photos of a MISB 7735 too, but that will come soon.
We have some ideas to answer questions 2 and 3.
We are closer to answer question 1; a very hard question. Please check your motors if you haven't done so yet. The most important motors are red ones as they are rare. If you have only few motors, even that may answer (or help in answering) one of these question. Do not forget to mention to what set your motor belong. :classic:

Edited by Reza

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I have to dig mine up. I got it at a tag sale for really cheap (like $5 for a box). It worked when I got it but I didn't have the wheels. Finally found some wheels at another tag sale and when I put it together to use it, no longer worked.... :cry_sad:

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