42083 - Bugatti Chiron

[aol000xw]

I guess there is a great degree of variance in spring hardness due to loose tolerances.

Anyways even in the videos at launch event, I think even in the one built by Sariel, there were problems. Even If 80% of the sets work Ok it is still a flaw. I am not playing roulette when buying Lego.

What irks me is the implicit lack of respect for consumers when selling something flawed, and the afterwards arrogant attitude so common theses days.

Yeah It was a very polite FU. Lego response to Porsche gearbox issues

Edit: so back then they were unable to make it work properly so they made it wrong to make it playable, Can someone explain to me how does Chiron suspension apply to playability?

Edited June 5, 2018 by aol000xw

[Bublehead]

13 minutes ago, Appie said:

Porsche's gearbox, which didn't work for anybody.

It worked for me, but only after messing with it for a couple of hours making sure every element was centered, adjusted, not too tight, not too loose, had just the right amount of friction to prevent backlash, etc.. etc.. Did it work flawlessly after that? No...  but it worked 8 out of 10 shifts if you didn’t look at it harshly.  The design hinged on having just enough friction, but not too much, which is hard to get right with the tolerances they are working with.  

[aol000xw]

The Porsche gearbox sequence was not right per the instructions. That is not related to the heavy fine tuning involved in making the gear shifting work.

[Kumbbl]

31 minutes ago, Appie said:

Is that really so? Reading comments and watching video's it seems to be 50-50.

I got 3 groups of people so far:

- Works fine and dandy, car gets back up to normal resting position every time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwW7LuCv46w= at 10:15 in the video)                

- Works, but sags over time (DugaldIC iirc)

- Never worked despite being properly assembled

In real life in automotive industry parts have an exact specification so all instances of such a parts behave exactly equal, so all screws shocks etc are well specified so all resulting cars behaves more or less equally... In contrary to that lego parts like the spring or pins are not so precise, means there is a small tolerances concerning the force of the springs and also concerning the friction force of pins. So for me this explain easily why there are these three groups whcih you have correctly mentioned, @Appie. It is really simple, some are lucky and got a set with spring and pin parts which have exactly the right amount of force rsp. friction so the suspension works, at least NOW (group 1). Others are not so lucky (group 2) and some of us have really bad luck (group 3)...

But for me this is a design fault, if such a basic and most important feature as the front-suspension relys onto such fragile stuff! A well done front axle has a geometry which equals such tolerances (which results in slightly differing part-behavior) - and therefore works always! Therefore: Yes, this is really so: The front suspension does not work as it should, period, no wait, exclamation mark! ;-)

as @aol000xw said above: " now I try to picture myself at 6 again, building the Chiron with great effort and almost can feel the sadness wondering what did I do wrong.Now show your shiny Chiron to someone not into Lego and rationalize, justify and explain why it behaves like a stone in a pond where it should be a working marvel of Technic" - very well spoken THAT MUST NOT HAPPEN for a company with such a high quality claim as with TLG, again period!

Edited June 5, 2018 by Kumbbl

[Pvdb]

7 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

It worked for me, but only after messing with it for a couple of hours making sure every element was centered, adjusted, not too tight, not too loose, had just the right amount of friction to prevent backlash, etc.. etc.. Did it work flawlessly after that? No...  but it worked 8 out of 10 shifts if you didn’t look at it harshly.  The design hinged on having just enough friction, but not too much, which is hard to get right with the tolerances they are working with.  

I think the reference above is regarding the wrong order of the gears in the porsche.

 

[iv-tecman]

Regarding the Porsche - https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-8003/jb70/42056-pimp-up-my-porsche/#parts a lot of what was wrong with that model was fixed eventually by mods. 

I suspect the Chiron will get the same treatment, and the suspension will be fixed and improvements will be made.  I will wait for improvements before I would attempt to build if you don't know how to fix yourself. That would by my plan.

[Bublehead]

I get it, order was plain wrong, and we put them in the right order and told TLG and they said “we meant to do that”...  yeah, that was some serious egg on their face, but that didn’t tick me off as bad as the tuning required to get it to shift well. 

[Kumbbl]

8 minutes ago, iv-tecman said:

Regarding the Porsche - https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-8003/jb70/42056-pimp-up-my-porsche/#parts a lot of what was wrong with that model was fixed eventually by mods. 

I suspect the Chiron will get the same treatment, and the suspension will be fixed and improvements will be made.  I will wait for improvements before I would attempt to build if you don't know how to fix yourself. That would by my plan.

yes, this Pimped Porsche is great - i have build it (even contributed some small details ;-) - perfect supercar and model. But such a perfection is IMHO not necessary, because this Porsche version is the full fletched incarnation where more or less all fixes and all great additional features of our community have been compiled in. I would also be very satiesfied if TLG would release a well working model, well working at least in its basic functions. As others already said: It's part of the fun to improved a model even more by some moding. But - at least not for me - it is NOT part of the fun (and in no way for some 10 years old children) to invest 10h building and then getting a model scratching the ground and not being able to be pushed along cause of the inaccessibility of the steering wheel - this is part of frustration nothing else.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Kumbbl

[nmono]

I have just completed the marriage step on my Chiron. I added the wheels to test the functions, and I noticed that when I set it on drive the wheels have to rotate a few full turns before it engages the gear box and engine. When I set it in reverse it engages immediately. Just wondering if anyone else noticed this problem or if I have something wrong with how I built it.

I would appreciate some feedback to know if I got anything wrong. Everything else seems to work well.

[Kumbbl]

no, you haven't done any errors - this comes from the huge amount of driving rings and clutch gears involved in all forward speeds - and this is cumulated to quite an amount of backlash (each driving-ring/clutch adds a quarter of a turn) - and because the reverse gear is omitting all these clutches/driving rings the engine reacts immediatelly... so, no worries, all is fine ;-)

Edited June 5, 2018 by Kumbbl

[allanp]

@aol000xw I agree that, without having built it myself, in videos the front suspension does seem too soft. But do you not think the gearbox is an improvement over the Porsche? Do you not like the new disk brake pieces? It seems you are a little too focused on one negative aspect to the point where it's preventing you from enjoying many positive aspects, which is a shame. For me the front suspension, cheap and low quality feeling steering (if it's anything like the porsche with its too short steering arms and no Ackerman geometry) and colour coding are negative aspects. But there are enough positive aspects as well to make me still want it. 

[Appie]

28 minutes ago, Kumbbl said:

for a company with such a high quality claim as with TLG, again period!

To be honest, with the release of the Porsche I left my expectations of "must be high quality" at the door 2 years ago. And @aol000xw is right, TLG was very arrogant about it back then. Proper gearbox sequence (it was indeed mainly about that Pvdb) made the friction reach levels of impossible. Now instead of sitting down and looking at where the issue was that caused this (like @Didumos69 did) we get a reply: "working as intended". Arrogant, lazy and above all, felt like a rushed product.

However, the front suspension of the Chiron still does not fall in this category for me. Sure there can be a variance in hardness of the springs and friction pins, but the fact is, it does work for some, so claiming "does not work period" goes a little too far for my taste. That's the key difference, if the suspension really worked for absolutely nobody I would be laughing here as hard as I did when I heard of a supercar with no working gearbox (Porsche), but I can't do that now. And while Sariel had this issue at his live build and his review kit, his speedbuild clearly shows him making a building error, so who's to say that didn't happen the other time as well. I assume he build it twice, so the speedbuild video we see with the flaw is the model shown in his review or from the live build or he build it a third time and made the error every time (since he tried to find the error in his review video)?

Should Lego have tested for the variance in hardness of springs if this is indeed the underlying issue? Yes, but looking back at the Porsche, I am already quite happy and surprised alot of stuff from this set works out of the box. Now you might say the Porsche put the bar for that achievement very low, so no wonder, but still, the Chiron could have been just as bad. I am glad TLG at least took some of the  feedback of the Porsche and applied it to this model.

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Appie

[AVCampos]

1 minute ago, allanp said:

colour coding are negative aspects

Bits of the chassis and especially the whole gearbox do look like a unicorn puked on them, but once the model is finished, all those colours become hidden.

[Kumbbl]

@Appie, let us agree that we agree that the Chiron is a step forward compared to the porsche, or maybe two steps ;-)

The Porsche fails not only in the gearbox (here multiple) but also in a too weak front suspension (yes i know, also with the Porsche there are your three groups ;-).... so, yes, you are right. And i'm far from ranting about the complete set - i have already said, that it has wonderful genes and is IMHO worth a buying - at least for me who can fix some things for myself.

Yes, the Chiron has two inacceptable pit-falls but it has also some really positive aspects: gearbox, the new parts here, awesome looks, clever spoiler kinematic (despite this poor key-driven solution) and and and... but: nevertheless these serious pit-falls can not be whitewashed.. ;-)

Edited June 5, 2018 by Kumbbl

[agrof]

@Appie But isn't the phrase of high standard and high quality for perfect compatibility meant for each LEGO products (elements)? Is it just for the 4x2 blocks? If this suspension issue appends on production tolerances, than LEGO radically dropped their tolerance-o-meter.

I think if it works only for 40% (which I can't believe, as there is only 1 video shows this, vs all the others basically I could find on YT), than it IS an issue - different as we had with the Porsche, but similar what we had with the linear actuators in 8043.

[nmono]

14 minutes ago, Kumbbl said:

no, you haven't done any errors - this comes from the huge amount of driving rings and clutch gears involved in all forward speeds - and this is cumulated to quite an amount of backlash (each driving-ring/clutch adds a quarter of a turn) - and because the reverse gear is omitting all these clutches/driving rings the engine reacts immediatelly... so, no worries, all is fine ;-)

Thanks for your feedback!

12 minutes ago, Appie said:

However, the front suspension of the Chiron still does not fall in this category for me. Sure there can be a variance in hardness of the springs and friction pins, but the fact is, it does work for some, so claiming "does not work period" goes a little too far for my taste

So far my suspension seems quite firm, firmer than the Porsche, but I haven't completed full model.

[aol000xw]

Improving and modding is great, be it by yourself or based on others work, and I expect a lot of great mods to come.

But that can't be used as an excuse by TLG to sell flawed designs. Modding is an option, can't be mandatory for the declared functions.to simply work. 

There are many sets every year, some don't work exactly smooth, steering is a prime candidate for jerkiness. But it is ok -kind off-. A suspension that simply sinks however is a major flaw, and the Porsche and the Chiron are the pinnacle of Technic somehow or at the very least an above average product, and price tag reflects that. Quality should reflect it too even if design or functions don't meet everyone expectations.

The Chiron has more technical flaws than the suspension, steering for example is awful but even if not perfect it works, so that as unimpressive as it is is acceptable. There are many things that I like about it however and i appreciate the shiny new parts beyond anything else, however I can't understand, with all the effort put in the packaging and the marketing that they let something like that the suspension pass.

At this point in time, when i think in 2020 I am pretty sure there will be a couple interesting new parts, a great design and great packaging. An interesting model for sure. But the question that comes to me time after time is "Will it work?" Not too flattery

Also the positives can't make for the negatives, you can't expect I'll be happy for you to paying for my dinner if you spit in it.

 

[Appie]

9 minutes ago, Kumbbl said:

@Appie, let us agree that we agree that the Chiron is a step forward compared to the porsche, or maybe two steps ;-)

The Porsche fails not only in the gearbox (here multiple) but also in a too weak front suspension (yes i know, also with there Porsche there are your three groups ;-).... so, yes, you are right. And i'm far from ranting about the complete set - i have already said, that it has wonderful genes and is IMHO worth a buying - at least for me who can fix some things for myself.

Exactly, couldn't agree more. I agree the Chiron still has its flaws out of the box, but I think it's a good 2 steps in the right direction coming from the Porsche.

 

7 minutes ago, agrof said:

@Appie But isn't the phrase of high standard and high quality for perfect compatibility meant for each LEGO products (elements)? Is it just for the 4x2 blocks? If this suspension issue appends on production tolerances, than LEGO radically dropped their tolerance-o-meter.

I think if it works only for 40% (which I can't believe, as there is only 1 video shows this, vs all the others basically I could find on YT), than it IS an issue - different as we had with the Porsche, but similar what we had with the linear actuators in 8043.

Perhaps Lego will release updated hard springs with a higher base hardness so even the lower variance is within the margin, if that is the main issue for Chiron's front suspension, we'll see. I am not sure that is the issue 100% because I have no clue about their tolerances on the springs.

As for your first question, yeah it should be for all parts, which is why I have my doubts it's related to the quality of the springs, but without knowing their process or testing methods, I can't tell.

[896gerard]

People, 

Can we stop moaning about the Chiron please? It happens to be good at looking good, which is exactly the only thing it was intended for. The extra price you pay is not for parts or for extra engineering, but for the extra good looking box, the presentation of and images on all the small boxes inside the box and the license Lego has to pay to use the Bugatti branded stickers. I like the idea very much of new parts being presented first in halo models like this, the Porsche first and the Bugatti second.

Moreover, perfection is not a common thing for current Technic sets. Most large Technic models look like they had more parts in initial phases but were robbed of parts to make more profit. But there are gems that have looks ánd functions. To my opinion, the coming 42082 fits in the list of the 8043 (Excavator), 42009(Mobile Crane MKII) and 42043 (Arocs) regarding complexity, looks and functions.

I think the Chiron gives us many great parts & opportunities. Please consider: there is no Technic set without error. The 8043 had appalling main arm lift power. The 42009 had ridiculously weak outtriggers. The Arocs had immensely heavy steering. I would say to you all: accept it & try to improve it with your own hands, because larger Lego Technic models simply have their mistakes.

But if you want to buy new stuff, that is what you get. If you don't accept it, buy the parts and try to build something better. 

[Vectormatic]

8 hours ago, agrof said:

A bit off-topic: are we really looking for "sense" at engineering counterpart of l'art pour l'art? Does it make sense to have 1500 HP on everyday conditions (which for the Chiron is designed too), or have such unique engineering solutions which pump up the bill to 2,4 million EUR? For me it is like finest watches - we did it because we could, not because it makes sense. So, in this spirit a 3 crank engine fits perfectly - whatever if it is only LEGO or real life.

i strongly disagree, the 3 crank is lego saying "we had to, because we couldnt", the real life equivalent would be bugatti taking an audi v8, slapping some massive turbos on giving undriveable lag and a 500km service interval, and calling it a day

the real chiron is about not making any compromises, the lego set isnt just compromised, it is actually flawed in some areas

[Aventador2004]

(OT)

My targeted ads on Eurobricks are currently the 42083. Anyone else?

[aol000xw]

4 minutes ago, 896gerard said:

People, 

Can we stop moaning about the Chiron please? It happens to be good at looking good, which is exactly the only thing it was intended for. The extra price you pay is not for parts or for extra engineering, but for the extra good looking box, the presentation of and images on all the small boxes inside the box and the license Lego has to pay to use the Bugatti branded stickers. I like the idea very much of new parts being presented first in halo models like this, the Porsche first and the Bugatti second.

Moreover, perfection is not a common thing for current Technic sets. Most large Technic models look like they had more parts in initial phases but were robbed of parts to make more profit. But there are gems that have looks ánd functions. To my opinion, the coming 42082 fits in the list of the 8043 (Excavator), 42009(Mobile Crane MKII) and 42043 (Arocs) regarding complexity, looks and functions.

I think the Chiron gives us many great parts & opportunities. Please consider: there is no Technic set without error. The 8043 had appalling main arm lift power. The 42009 had ridiculously weak outtriggers. The Arocs had immensely heavy steering. I would say to you all: accept it & try to improve it with your own hands, because larger Lego Technic models simply have their mistakes.

But if you want to buy new stuff, that is what you get. If you don't accept it, buy the parts and try to build something better. 

No and it is not moaning. I am sharing my thoughts with others doing exactly the same with their own opinions, and learning or reflecting on them on a matter of high interest to us. Why should I stop? 

I am not going to pretend I know what TLG is trying to achieve with these new super-cars or their cost/pricing strategies beyond making profits but it is exactly the notion that the Chiron is there just to look good what makes me keep on it. This is Technic not model Team, has people forgotten it?

Also I don't see a reason for people who don't agree with what TLG is doing to just shut up and resign, surely TLG can do better that this. I sure know that a wise use of my wallet is the best message, but sharing ideas on forums like this is  a good one too.

 

 

[rener]

14 minutes ago, aol000xw said:

Why should I stop? 

Because you’ve made your point perhaps? Dozens of times already?

[aol000xw]

Just now, rener said:

Because you’ve made your point perhaps? Dozens of times already?

There isn't a single point to be made and for sure if it were it would have not been made dozens of times, but thank you for your effort on micro moderating me by answering a rhetorical question.

[agrof]

@896gerard I fully agree with @aol000xw, and also consider this discussion (not moaning) as feedback. Without feedback - let it be negative or positive - there is no improvement. As some TLG member follow this forum, the message will fly to addressed with greater chance, than writing an email to LEGO's customer service (has anyone tried it already regarding this issue?).

50 minutes ago, vectormatic said:

i strongly disagree, the 3 crank is lego saying "we had to, because we couldnt", the real life equivalent would be bugatti taking an audi v8, slapping some massive turbos on giving undriveable lag and a 500km service interval, and calling it a day

the real chiron is about not making any compromises, the lego set isnt just compromised, it is actually flawed in some areas

It appends on point of view (Bugatti was p#ssy to invent a perfect 3 crankshaft engine, and they made compromise with 1 only ). Let's say: I am not a petrolhead, so I don't care about how many cankshafts are in a LEGO model. It is your right to complain about no proper fake engine, if you expected that from a "scale" model - we will not start to fight about, I accept your opinion. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by agrof