Reza

Help: Special 12V service brochures since 1991

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Hello everybody,

On Page 5 of this brochure from 1991, it is mentioned:

http://worldbricks.com/en/catalog-year/1990/catalogs-1991/1991-lego-catalog-2-en-fr-nl.html

For owners of 12V Lego trains, a special 12V train brochure is available. Please contact Lego Spares service.

Aux utilisateurs de trains Lego 12V: Réclamez la brochure special "trains 12V" a Lego S. A. ...

Please let me know if I can find in internet and download the special 12v train brochures from 1991, 1992, 1993 (or even from 1990, 1989, 1988). Otherwise, iIf you have them, I really appreciate if you can scan them or just let me know, so that I can find a way to borrow them from me, or even buy them.
This is for a longterm project for improving the current inventory of 12v and 4.5V trains on bricklink.

One concern is the service bag 5086, which is declared on bricklink from 1993, but I am not sure. I cannot find it in any brochure available online!

Cheers

Edited by Reza

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This is really annoying (and unhelpful) as I know I did have one - aged 9 I wrote to Lego to express my frustration at the discontinuation of the 12v line and how the new system was a backwards step in functionality and wouldn’t be compatible with all my current sets. They replied with a nice letter thanking me for my interest, stating that spares would still be available for a time, and including the special Service leaflet and a copy of 7777.

I can find 7777 and I know I’ve seen the letter recently, but I think my parents must have had the Service leaflet so they could order items to cover the next few birthdays and Christmases. I’ll keep looking in case it’s misfiled, but it’s annoying that it’s not where it should be...

Edited by PeteM
Paragraphing

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9 hours ago, Reza said:

For owners of 12V Lego trains, a special 12V train brochure is available. Please contact Lego Spares service.

Hi,

I thinks it's this one, a small catalogue, actually I only made a photo of the cover:

12V_Abstellgleis.PNG

 

I don't know, if there is a complete scan online. If not, let me know.

Greetings

ThomaS

 

 

Edited by tsi

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2 hours ago, Grrr said:

Grrr, it is not clear this one was published in what year. Moreover, the service 5086 is not present here. I have NOT seen 5086 in any catalog or service brochure yet.

3 hours ago, tsi said:

Hi,

I thinks it's this one, a small catalogue, actually I only made a photo of the cover:

12V_Abstellgleis.PNG

 

I don't know, if there is a complete scan online. If not, let me know.

Greetings

ThomaS

 

 

Dear Thomas,
thanks for putting this here. Could you make an excellent scan of this?
Two things are not clear. This was published in what year?
Why I cannot find the service pack 5086 is in any catalog or brochure?!

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I strongly suspect it wasn't originally a service pack until set 7865 sold out. Certainly it's not in that catalog I linked above, which unfortunately we're indeed unable to date.

Moreover; the set number doesn't help either. The 508? series where 12v trains, and the 50?? series where used consecutively from 0, and anti-consecutively from 5099 for duplo; and 5086 is the end point in both directions.

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@Reza - I'm going to go ahead and say it's indeed a 1993 set.

My case is as follows:

On the BrickOwl page (https://www.brickowl.com/catalog/lego-12v-motor-set-5086) for the set; you can see the Lego item number on the back of the packaging; 821478.

These item numbers are allocated consecutively.

821472 is the sticker sheet for set 5521 ( https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?id=2533#T=S&C=0&O={"color":0,"iconly":0} ) released in 1993.Various other 8214?? items are attributable to 1993.

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Just one idea, if someone has a large European catalog from 1993 to check for 5086, I believe these catalogs came with a fairly extensive service pack section in the middle. I have one from 1996 that is this way, but I think all 12v was done by this time. The catalog scans on Peeron do not seem to include this section.

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Grrr
That was a great informative comment. Thanks :-)
It is now reasoanble to think that was still a 1993 set.
Ok, let's assume that in 1992 or early 1993, the set 7865 was sold out and replaced by 5086. Then this one didn't show up in any service brochure? A little bit odd. How people could order a 12v motor then?
On the catalog of 1994, it is stated that the 12v parts were still available. I guess a 12v brochure was still available. 
P.S. It was satated on bricklink that the motor bb12vc with slotted holes was released in 1993. We figured out that this was not the case, but since (at least) 12th week in 1988 coming with 7865. Since the sets 7735 and 7745 were in market until 1990, then we strongly think that they came with motor type 4 since 1988.
For the type of motor:
Type 1 bb12va

Type 2: bb12vb

Type 3 bb12vb (bricklink doesn't distinguish types 2 and 3 for now)

Type 4 bb12vc

Numbered black and red 12V motors from topVariations of Lego train 12V motors

 

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15 hours ago, Reza said:

Grrr
That was a great informative comment. Thanks :-)
It is now reasoanble to think that was still a 1993 set.
Ok, let's assume that in 1992 or early 1993, the set 7865 was sold out and replaced by 5086. Then this one didn't show up in any service brochure? A little bit odd. How people could order a 12v motor then?
On the catalog of 1994, it is stated that the 12v parts were still available. I guess a 12v brochure was still available. 
P.S. It was satated on bricklink that the motor bb12vc with slotted holes was released in 1993. We figured out that this was not the case, but since (at least) 12th week in 1988 coming with 7865. Since the sets 7735 and 7745 were in market until 1990, then we strongly think that they came with motor type 4 since 1988.
For the type of motor:
Type 1 bb12va

Type 2: bb12vb

Type 3 bb12vb (bricklink doesn't distinguish types 2 and 3 for now)

Type 4 bb12vc

 

You're welcome.

I'm not sure when they were down to their final stocks if they'd have still had a new glossy brochure. I remember asking for a brochure as a kid and getting a printed out list of set no's, descriptions and prices; but then, Lego NZ may simply have run out of brochures or something. (sadly I know longer have this letter/brochure).

As for the motor types; my 7735 and 7745, which are of known provenance and haven't been mixed with any other 12v gear since new both have the Type 3 motor. The person I bought them off said they got them in 1989 or 1990 (though who knows how long they sat on the shelf prior to purchase). My 7735 is definately the latter variant as it had the red-pinned train wheel sets (which incidentally aren't mentioned as a counter-part for that set on Bricklink either).

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On 27.1.2018 at 11:57 PM, Reza said:

This was published in what year?

Must have been late 1991. Or printed in 1991 and published in early 1992. I own one of those flyers but it's in my parent's attic. 320 Km from where I live. Also, the Service flyer that you linked to is a different one. Those ony came in the larger LEGO sets. They weren't included with any of the catalogues that I picked up from our local toy stores.

I don't remember seeing that motor on a LEGO Service stand/display/thing. They usually only had the smaller stuff like the sliding doors and the light bricks mixed in with all the other regular service bags. Maybe it was a bag that you could only order over the phone or when you sent them a letter. Maybe they didn't have enough stock to officially include it in those flyers.

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4 hours ago, freestorm said:

I found an ebay auction for the 12V catalog.

We cannot see the copyright date on the 3th page, but the seller list as 1992

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/LEGO-Service-Pack-von-1992-Sonderheft-Umstellung-vom-12V-auf-9V-System-921762/332392536873?hash=item4d64239b29:g:easAAOSwWWpZysaT

 

Can't read the copyright date, however, the item number is clearly 921762, which we can find on bricklink as a 1992 catalog:

https://www.bricklink.com/v2/search.page?q=921762#T=A

 

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50 minutes ago, Reza said:

I searched on bricklink.
Seems there is not a similar flyer/brochure in 1991 or 1993?!

The lack of a 1991 brochure confuses me; I'd have expected the 1992 brochure to have been released in 1991 to be honest, but Lego can be quite slow with such things. 1993 and onwards possibly just used the 1992 brochure, in much the same way that Trains catalogs were used for multiple years in the 80's.

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Hey guys!
By the way, how do you like my photos of 12v motors?

These photos took me two hours!
Uopn your request and If you  liked these photos, I can share a photo of "behind the scene"! :-)

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8 hours ago, Grrr said:

The lack of a 1991 brochure confuses me; I'd have expected the 1992 brochure to have been released in 1991 to be honest, but Lego can be quite slow with such things. 1993 and onwards possibly just used the 1992 brochure, in much the same way that Trains catalogs were used for multiple years in the 80's.

Well, the 9V stuff was released in the second half of 1991. Maybe there was concerned feedback from retailers and customers, regarding the future support of their 12v stuff. Which forced Lego to prepare such a brochure for 1992, against their original thoughts.

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I have a dutch brochure here. Unfortunately, the copyright part was on the order form, which was used. So I cannot for sure put a date on it. .
I am pretty sure though we got it pretty quickly after finding out the 12V system was stopping.
I can scan it, but it is pretty much the same as the one posted earlier. Just that little bit of text is different

Furthermore some of the text does give some good indication:

"De getoonde prijzen zijn die welke in 1991 worden berekend bij eventuele rechtstreekse levering per post door LEGO Service"

Rough translation: The shown prizes are the prizes trat will be used if delivered by Lego Service in 1991.

This, combined with that the main 1991 catalog mentions there being a special brochure, leads me to believe there has been one.

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On 1/28/2018 at 12:53 PM, Grrr said:

You're welcome.

I'm not sure when they were down to their final stocks if they'd have still had a new glossy brochure. I remember asking for a brochure as a kid and getting a printed out list of set no's, descriptions and prices; but then, Lego NZ may simply have run out of brochures or something. (sadly I know longer have this letter/brochure).

As for the motor types; my 7735 and 7745, which are of known provenance and haven't been mixed with any other 12v gear since new both have the Type 3 motor. The person I bought them off said they got them in 1989 or 1990 (though who knows how long they sat on the shelf prior to purchase). My 7735 is definately the latter variant as it had the red-pinned train wheel sets (which incidentally aren't mentioned as a counter-part for that set on Bricklink either).

Dear Grrr

Could you give me the dates (numbers) written underneath all your motors by indicating the color (red or black) and the type?

I am not sure that the red-pinned wheels are indicating the latest releases of these trains. A 12v fan and seller in Belgium told me that he heard this red-pinned happened because TLG ran out of black pins at some point and I guess they didn't want to delay and loss money. So they did what they could. Except that they didn't realize this would cause trouble to collectors and 12v fans 25 years after! Last week, I took a photo of my red-pinned wheel and requested to add it to the inventory items on bricklink. It is in process!

Last week, they accepted my first request:
https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=x488c03

Edited by Reza

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5 hours ago, Reza said:

Dear Grrr

Could you give me the dates (numbers) written underneath all your motors by indicating the color (red or black) and the type?

I am not sure that the red-pinned wheels are indicating the latest releases of these trains. A 12v fan and seller in Belgium told me that he heard this red-pinned happened because TLG ran out of black pins at some point and I guess they didn't want to delay and loss money. So they did what they could. Except that they didn't realize this would cause trouble to collectors and 12v fans 25 years after! Last week, I took a photo of my red-pinned wheel and requested to add it to the inventory items on bricklink. It is in process!

Last week, they accepted my first request:
https://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=x488c03

All four of my 12v Train Motors are Type 3 and black. Dates are 50/5, 05/7, 15/4, 2/2.

I've heard the same about the black/red pins.

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6 hours ago, Grrr said:

All four of my 12v Train Motors are Type 3 and black. Dates are 50/5, 05/7, 15/4, 2/2.

I've heard the same about the black/red pins.

2/2? Like 2nd week in 1982? Are you sure?
that should be wrong.

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On ‎2‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 2:22 AM, Reza said:

2/2? Like 2nd week in 1982? Are you sure?
that should be wrong.

OK, I was slightly wrong; it's 27 / 2.

Pics (sorry, not embeded as they're way too big):

http://ibb.co/cDhwB6

http://ibb.co/fmUF4R

 

Edited by Grrr

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The Swiss version of the catalog 921762 is copyrighted as 1991.
I've scanned the Swiss -German and the Swiss-French version.
Note: price are in CHF

Swiss-German:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JvxpzkydjoWNxnemNgu0YnUl8PIY7oxA

Swiss-French:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uDNfYOgrgjWGfCXviDnA_pJ4niFHKcms

 

Edited by freestorm

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On 3/5/2018 at 3:46 AM, freestorm said:

The Swiss version of the catalog 921762 is copyrighted as 1991.
I've scanned the Swiss -German and the Swiss-French version.
Note: price are in CHF

Swiss-German:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UoQIRwerWmrK-XSs4HmaHc9Bl6D8pybE

Swiss-French:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Qx7XJKVPeC0WIId8GLAXl10MDFGiGMBF

 

Thanks freestorm. This was so useful.
I like to see and read  French catalogs :-)
Checking again these catalogs, I got also an idea for convincing bricklink admins to split the motors bb12vb into two subcategory: integrated pin(type 2)/separated pin(type 3)
Indeed, the trains , 7755, and then 7735 and 7745 came with motor type 3. But if you check instructions, the pictures don't show that the pin is separated from the rest. However I noticed that in the catalogs you scanned and uploaded, there were newer photos of the black motors showing the separated pins. :-)

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3 hours ago, Reza said:

Thanks freestorm. This was so useful.
I like to see and read  French catalogs :-)
Checking again these catalogs, I got also an idea for convincing bricklink admins to split the motors bb12vb into two subcategory: integrated pin(type 2)/separated pin(type 3)
Indeed, the trains , 7755, and then 7735 and 7745 came with motor type 3. But if you check instructions, the pictures don't show that the pin is separated from the rest. However I noticed that in the catalogs you scanned and uploaded, there were newer photos of the black motors showing the separated pins. :-)

I'm happy that I can help :-)

Sometimes, instructions and box doesn't correspond to LEGO inside.
You can also have the same set (same number) with 2 differents instruction and inventory.
Looking on catalogs and instructions can be not 100% correct, I think LEGO sets where build as toy and not "collecting Toy" so the look can be the same, but not the inventory.

PS: I'm scanning some old catalogs '80 to '90, I will post a new thread when I'm ready to share the PDF, maybe it can help with you research.
 

 

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