The Journey back to Echo Base

[atlas]

10 hours ago, dvogon said:

I think this is the impression they wanted to give, but they couldn't afford anything near that big in the studios.

I agree. The scaled down hangar set to me is just a byproduct of space, time and money available. I think the above image is a perfect goal to aspire to. The huge cave mouth seems to me to be what was intended. If I were you, I would use the existing hangar set as a guideline rather than the be all and end all. The thing I'd base the rest off would be a big enough hangar door for the falcon to escape through. If you are happy to enlarge the whole thing to allow for that, that's my advice. I like the idea of maintaining the internal proportions of the hangar space as rectangular, but wouldn't be bothered by a slightly more square shape if it allows the door to be the 'right' size. I think you will find that in real bricks, using the set used for filming  as an absolute guide will make everything appear miniature and cramped - which of course is how it was.

[dvogon]

Ok, so I have searched in my old film collection books trying to find the Echo base plans and I found this one. It's from Star Wars Technical Journal, back from 1994-1996:

Interesting enough, it seems that more people came into the same conclusion and they prepared a plan that fits better with the intended size. The falcon is way smaller overall compared to the width and length of the base. Note also how the entrance gets bigger after the doorway out and it's big enough for the falcon to escape. From the outside the shots give the impression of an even bigger base.

It fits also more X-Wings and snow speeders. This layout appears to be closer to their original ideas, before they had to make compromises within the studios.

I have used this book sometimes as reference material for some of my MOCs, but never realised the dimensions mismatch of Hoth Echo base until now.

[cehnot]

11 minutes ago, dvogon said:

Is it possible to scan the layout? I don't care if you need to send 3 scans, I can stitch it together. Based on that technical manual (other than width) I believe EA Battlefront 2 used it to serve as a guideline to design their map. On the bottom they got rid of bays 2-4. Then made the x-wing station another smaller one, leaving a bit room between the doors and the bay. Then they got rid of X-wing bays 5-6. This would place them in the correct spots for the game. In Battlefront 1, they got rid of snow speeder bay 1, and made the rest x-wing size bays (3). That would follow the map design. They also got rid of x-wing bays 1 and 5.

The largest issue with this technical map is the hangar door. The matte painting above the gate is all wrong. The ceiling curve should line up to the sloping walls. In other words, the ceiling should be wider based on the blueprints shown below. The slope begins after the angled wall leading to the door ends. But based on the technical photo it would suggest they did account for the weird ceiling heigh pillar. The dotted lines indicate it was much taller than the other bays I could be okay with this idea since we do see it in the photo. Structurally it makes no sense as to why they decided to not make the bay same height as the other two in the opposite matte painting. They contradict each other. You can clearly see the 3 bays all the same height. They are much wider than the technical plans. Your plans (like EA Battlefront) keeps the Millennium falcon located in the same position as the original blueprints. The mandibles hang over to the right of the hangar. The film, no matter what image I use has the falcon positioned center of the x-wing bay. This is why I believe they altered the final layout in 2 major ways when building the set. They wanted more space for the falcon and cared less about what was behind it. 

Largest issue with the whole thing is some plans show an x-wing on the same side as the snow speeders which makes no sense since their hangar is behind the x-wing bays. We only see that on the Battlefront 1 game. This photo below shows you how wide and tall the bays on the snow speeder side were in that game. 

There was another technical book produced in the late 90s or early 2000's. This map, though I do not own it, found it online also widened the hangar. They kept the 3 large snow speeder bays. This design kept the original blueprints close in tact, minus that weird matte painting issue your technical manual has. This map also relates closer to the original cross section map. 

[ecmo47]

 

The shape of the circled container shape would have been inspired by the containers on the underside of the rebel transport. 

[cehnot]

I looked up what you said and there are containers in A New Hope with that shape on Yavin 4. Thanks for spotting that out. I looked into models of the transport ship and it is filled with tons of them. 

[cehnot]

I went with a combination of 3 different floorpans and worked out a compromise for the hangar. Based on the research, I took the best parts and most logical designs from each floor plan and came up with what I think should be close to a definitive approach for the buiId. Based on the wider exterior cave entrance in the film and technical manual image, updated blue prints and such, I am happy to say the entrance will fit the falcon through it quite well. When the doors are in their open position they should come in about 8 studs long on each side. This is based on the height of the door which is indicated by the 2 tall angled wedges i have on both sides of the dark gray bricks. The UCS falcon should have a clearance of about 2 bricks on each side of the gate to exit. I am not sure how wide Marshal's falcon is 69-70 studs wide, whereas the UCS falcon is about 73-74 bricks wide. The fact is they are only about 4 studs apart in width. That is pretty cool.   

For reference: TI used Marshal's Falcon and did a transparent overlay to show you guys how much smaller it is compared to the UCS. I am designing the base with the UCS in mind, but probably plan on building a modified version of Marshals with the UCS cockpit. 

I moved on and and worked out a basic floorpan and begun to build the room. I currently only have the x-wing bays done. The rotunda (based on the cross section) is a hole in the ceiling leading to the surface about 100 feet above the roof. The major knocked out areas in the back are places I need to sculpt tunnels and icicles and such. Based on the size and weight I think I will need to build part of the ceiling in order for it to not collapse onto the falcon. I may do a cutaway idea, but for now I plan on finishing the entire ceiling. 

Eventually the idea is for it to be a modular build, but I may need to keep the entire section of the rotunda in one piece. That may be a placed on 2wide by 2 long 48stud baseplates. Its huge. The light gray baseplates are 3 wide by 5 long. That is just for me as reference on building the modular system and trying to fit the important stuff all on it.

There will be a lot of cracks in the correct places on this build. I wanted to show you guys the finished x-wing bays. They are huge. Took a lot of screen shots from Battlefront to figure out what those vent ducts looked like under them. Too bad the render didn't show them off better. Ill save that for another day I guess. 

I think I am finally pleased with the design. I want to use the width of the original studio set, but know it isn't possible to fit the falcon in the door. Compromises indeed. 

 
Showing off how wide that door is. I think keeping the proportional height from the film and just widening the door creates the same effect in film from the exterior shots. 

 

The snow speeder bay should move fast since I figured out the X-wing bay design. There will be more cracks and significant damage on the walls like the matte painting near the front entrance on the snow speeder side. I also will need to build a frame to maintain the structural integrity. For now, the goal is to make the interior design look right. 

Stages to work out in order:
1. Snowspeeder hangar bays
2. Cracks on wall and ceiling above and around snow speeder bays
3. Entrance door
4. Caves and doorways in the back
5. Roof. 
6. Make it modular. 

If you guys have an suggestions as to solving the gaps in the rotunda area let me know. Right now I feel as if I will just leave it alone. The cone shape is most important and I wanted it to be as round as possible. I think it looks okay. I am sure once the structure and everything is finished the gaps will not be as noticeable since light will not pass through them. 

Thanks for keeping up with my builds. 

[MilkPls69]

Hey Cehnot great to see you taking on a project like this even with your others unfinished. I noticed you are looking around for a UCS styled falcon but with an interior. In that case might I recomend this one by Jhaelon which is heavily inspired by Marshalls and has a full interior. I belive he sells instructions for it as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5XcVgqoUbM

[cehnot]

Thanks for the head's up. I will keep his in mind for the future. I think I will build Marshal's and back pedal to modify it with the UCS cockpit and see where that takes me first. I will probably finish the LDD file, and move onto the physical builds in my waitlist. This project will be a long time to do. At least the hangar will go quickly in LDD. 

[MilkPls69]

No problem my dude I love seeing your projects and the fact you share them when finished most of the time is even better because it means someday us unskilled builders can make it ourself! 

[cehnot]

A friend of mine just informed me that the v-150 Planet Defender is about 60-70 feet in diameter. So its roughly the same size at the falcon. Thats a large ball. maybe I will tackle that someday as well and add it to the build in LDD. 

[MKJoshA]

21 hours ago, cehnot said:

The largest issue with this technical map is the hangar door. The matte painting above the gate is all wrong. The ceiling curve should line up to the sloping walls. In other words, the ceiling should be wider based on the blueprints shown below. The slope begins after the angled wall leading to the door ends. But based on the technical photo it would suggest they did account for the weird ceiling heigh pillar. The dotted lines indicate it was much taller than the other bays I could be okay with this idea since we do see it in the photo. Structurally it makes no sense as to why they decided to not make the bay same height as the other two in the opposite matte painting. They contradict each other. You can clearly see the 3 bays all the same height. They are much wider than the technical plans. Your plans (like EA Battlefront) keeps the Millennium falcon located in the same position as the original blueprints. The mandibles hang over to the right of the hangar. The film, no matter what image I use has the falcon positioned center of the x-wing bay. This is why I believe they altered the final layout in 2 major ways when building the set. They wanted more space for the falcon and cared less about what was behind it.

My guess is that when they were building the set that no one thought there would eventually be fans dedicated enough to find their errors and contradictions. They just tried to make it work with the budget they had.

[Kamil Z]

This is going to be the most accurate Echo base, no doubt. I love the progress so far! Btw could this cross section help in any way? 

[JangoFett140]

Looking Great! I'm on a smaller cross section also building the hanger for my Falcon. Like you I was surprised in researching how many things people have missed over the years and some things like the catwalk never really being accurate. I'm going to custom make a print a part for mine but I like your railing alot. i may tweak mine slightly now since i don't quite like how big the bow out is on it. Based on those floor plans you found I may be changing my side bay sizes again. It's not really clear in the movie or pics I had but from what I could tell X-Wings fit on either side so I scaled as such but now....lol. Can you post a pic of how you did the ceiling vents in each bay? I've been messing with a few ideas and haven't liked much so far. I feel proud though that with all your research that my build dimensions seem to basically match yours for scaling by just intently starting at screenshots.

I also found this layout online

The cross section on the wiki gives an idea of scale for the Ion Cannon

On 26-1-2018 at 11:36 AM, cehnot said:

Personal Vertical Boom lift
After making this model, 3 parts are not available in Orange. What a drag. Looks great though. 
<snip>

I feel yea. The main part I wanted to use for the Fuel Cart doesn't come in dark blueish grey. Like you I'll have to switch to light blueish grey.

Edited January 31, 2018 by BEAVeR
Please don't quote images

[chris592]

this project looks fantastic, I look forward on seeing this progress over the coming months. 

[cehnot]

10 hours ago, Kamil Z said:

This is going to be the most accurate Echo base, no doubt. I love the progress so far! Btw could this cross section help in any way? 

That is my bible I use to make final decisions. I have been using it as a guideline since the day i began researching. When I reference the cross-section map, this is the one I am referring to. 

5 hours ago, JangoFett140 said:

Looking Great! I'm on a smaller cross section also building the hanger for my Falcon. Like you I was surprised in researching how many things people have missed over the years and some things like the catwalk never really being accurate. I'm going to custom make a print a part for mine but I like your railing alot. i may tweak mine slightly now since i don't quite like how big the bow out is on it. Based on those floor plans you found I may be changing my side bay sizes again. It's not really clear in the movie or pics I had but from what I could tell X-Wings fit on either side so I scaled as such but now....lol. Can you post a pic of how you did the ceiling vents in each bay? I've been messing with a few ideas and haven't liked much so far. I feel proud though that with all your research that my build dimensions seem to basically match yours for scaling by just intently starting at screenshots.

I also found this layout online

The cross section on the wiki gives an idea of scale for the Ion Cannon

I feel yea. The main part I wanted to use for the Fuel Cart doesn't come in dark blueish grey. Like you I'll have to switch to light blueish grey.

Thanks for the image. I stayed away from that map because the size relationships of vehicles is astoundingly different. 
Ceiling vents. I am attaching the LDD file, The vent is the basic form I started with, I then changed colors and added snow effects and ice effects. But this is how I built it. 

Is the custom part 3d printed? I assume you are doing those triangle parts correct? I am using Brickarms U-Clip and Mono Clip pieces to solve it. 

That fuel cart is another issue I had. The round 2x2 brick with hole in the side would be great in Dark Bluish gray. Cannot win them all. 

Echo Base Air Duct LDD file

North Entrance Door:
The door is complete, just need to figure out how to mount the mechanism. The doors will slide with one gear crank. There is a long set of technic axles that make the opposite side close or open with only the need of one lever. As you can see, the door is massive and was quite a bit of fun developing. The main door is 1 stud thick, with tiles for the panels on both side to shape it. Simple design, surprised nobody ever did this before. The measurements are almost accurate to the film in thickness. The design of the door is perfectly matched to the shape in film. 3 studs tall by 4 studs wide on each notch just like the 4 ft by 3ft sections seen in film. The fact that I am using wedge bricks they line up perfectly and connect when closed. The studs on the wedges work perfectly. The film has 2 metal clamps on the ends so I can justify these connecting. 

Snowspeeder Hangar Bay:
After some trial and error I decided to get rid of the 3rd hangar bay closest to the gate and extend it up like the film matte painting. I had to then shorten the entrance side by 5 studs to fit the movie accurately. I originally thought of making the door further away, but frankly the cross section shows the x-wing snugly inside the bay on the snowspeeder side and I am assuming that the bay is the same width as the other x-wings so I adjusted that area to match it. I did not finish the wall (indicated by the row of red 2x4 bricks) on the inside of that area yet because its been challenging to figure out the door. That whole area needs crumbling walls and ceiling so I will work on that another day. The snow speeder bay pillars are square. I thought they would be another shape but all the images I have show square shapes. 

The height of the main hangar and adjacent bays are actually different. The cross section shows the snow speeder bays the height of where the curve of the main hangar ceiling starts. I think they work because the Battlefront games show an air duct system in them that are larger than the x-wing bays. I made the X-wing Bay air ducts 3 studs wide by 2 studs tall. Based on the game they decided to make the ceiling ducts larger, maybe 4 studs wide by 2 studs tall? Not sure if I want to change duct size or keep them all 3 studs wide. Personally I think 3 studs wide makes more sense throughout the whole design. 

The Floor:
I have not worked on it because I need the walls, caves and such formed first. The floor will be the most difficult to do I think because I have to place a ton of studs everywhere for things to click to. Right now, the space between the baseplates and ground level is 4 plates tall. I am not sure what other people did on building the sub floor structure to hold it up (Talking to you Marcus). Instead of tiles, i think I will go with the sideways brick approach like Marcus did on his MOC. I do not want it to look like a floor. I think I will also leave patches of studs to show the ground where they didn't smooth it out all the way, that may actually look like a great texture and help break up the smooth ground issue. 

 

 

[dmaclego]

What an ambitious project, Cehnot. Kudos to you for a thorough research. I guess you're going to need a supercomputer to process the whole file once it done ;) .

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, hoping to see your creation built in real bricks (somewhere in not too distant future ;)). Good luck!

 

[cehnot]

I hit a snag, trying to solve it.
I took the large echo base photo into photoshop and used my perspective tools and such to try and figure out how accurate their bay image is not shown in the snow speeder area. Some maps show 4 equal length bays across the whole thing, some show 3 and a diagonal cut wall leading to them. Based on the image here that the snow speeder hangar bay may be larger than I thought. Obviously they show people and equipment leading into another room. That I knew, but what I think is happening is the bay may be just as wide as the x-wing hangar bay. There isn't enough room for 5 snow speeder bays as I originally thought. If you look closely the green line near the entrance door hits the bottom of the gate. You need about 4 to 5 feet behind it. That idea is now scrapped. What I believe the wall is not straight. 

Kamil added a hangar bay concept from First Strike that may be closer to this base design than i previously thought. 

I thought and thought about how that wall should look and the more I stare at it the more I believe it is not straight. The image shows a rough wall, not smooth. I believe they tried to cut the wall and it collapsed. I think they left that side unfinished for a reason.

Snow speeder bays are the same height as the x-wing bays. I used the purple line to follow along the wall down towards the falcon. They are indeed about the same height as the Falcon, therefore should match up with the X-wing hangars. There are some shots showing the matte paintings behind the bays to indicate depth. The bays are really tall and narrow. I understand why Battlefront used shorter bays to keep the long and sleek approach, but taller bays make more sense. Not everything fits through short doors. Those Service gantry platforms do not lower. I would justify that alone is the main reason to keep taller bay designs. 

The question is:

Do I cut the wall to make 4 hangar bays or 3 hangar bays?
The reason for 3: The X-wing. The extra large cut is due to a collapse wall and they tried to fix it. The snow and ice piled up and they probably repaired the wall, but decided to leave that area open. 
The reason for 4: Most maps show 4 bays, but line them up equally across the hangar. This would make sense based on the rest of the echo base cross section map.
The reason for 5: If I use the narrow approach on the hangar bay (like the set photo below indicates they are) I can ignore the cross section and make it a complete square like the x-wing bay. I can still use crumbling walls and such, but it would justify why Battlefront 1 and 2 are square. 

Though the perspective is way off, you can see the matte painting behind Chewy. Those are taller bays, but what I would say are the same width pillars as the foreground set piece. I would argue that they are meant as snow speeder bays. 

I can fit the 5 hangar bays perfectly inside the square, 5 bricks away from the wall on both sides. It looks funny having those tall and narrow bays, but it may be correct. Not sure what to do. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by cehnot
Updated a link

[LukeBrickwalker]

What a Project 

Which Programm are you working with, the rendering Looks awsome?

[dvogon]

Some days away and now back to this page to see that your project has advanced a lot! The doors design looks very realistic and yet simple. And the hangar bays built upside down are just great. Some time ago I searched for an inverted corner white slope and didn't find anything useful. Not adding a bay close to the door at the right side from inside seem also more accurate to me.

This page is great with all those different Echo Base plans. It can be seen how they are somewhat based on previous ones, but at the same time adding something on their own.

On 29/1/2018 at 10:41 PM, cehnot said:

Is it possible to scan the layout?

I have scanned the plans in a PDF (three pages). Let me know how to send it to you.

Edited February 2, 2018 by dvogon

[Glassjaw]

This is so amazing, the level of detail, research, time and sheer willpower is phenomenal! I can't offer anything particularly helpful other than praise however I'll watch ESB as many times as I can to see if anything useful pops up.

 

keep doing what you're doing!

[JangoFett140]

21 hours ago, cehnot said:

The question is:

Do I cut the wall to make 4 hangar bays or 3 hangar bays?
The reason for 3: The X-wing. The extra large cut is due to a collapse wall and they tried to fix it. The snow and ice piled up and they probably repaired the wall, but decided to leave that area open. 
The reason for 4: Most maps show 4 bays, but line them up equally across the hangar. This would make sense based on the rest of the echo base cross section map.
The reason for 5: If I use the narrow approach on the hangar bay (like the set photo below indicates they are) I can ignore the cross section and make it a complete square like the x-wing bay. I can still use crumbling walls and such, but it would justify why Battlefront 1 and 2 are square. 

To clarify are we talking about the back bays (that you have marked blue and red) or the front set? I think the front should be 3 and back 4.

Edited February 3, 2018 by JangoFett140

[Kamil Z]

1 hour ago, JangoFett140 said:

To clarify are we talking about the back bays (that you have marked blue and red) or the front set? I think the front should be 3 and back 4.

Agreed

[JangoFett140]

The part of problem with that wall is that’s where the camera is positioned for a lot of shots in ESB. So we have lots of straight on shots of the Xwing wall but only parts of the Snowspeeder one. 

EDIT: Been watching ESB at half speed and noticed in the background of this shot that you can see an X-Wing in the last bay on the Snowspeeder side when Luke gets in his speeder.

Edited February 5, 2018 by JangoFett140

[dvogon]

Yes, that X-Wing closer to the main door appears in the plans I posted earlier in this page. However, the small hangar bays in the plans contradict what appears in the film, which are big X-Wing sized bays. The scene gives the impression that there are more snowspeeders than those that actually fit in the studios, so in that extent the plans are more accurate to the desired base.

 

[cehnot]

On February 2, 2018 at 8:18 PM, JangoFett140 said:

To clarify are we talking about the back bays (that you have marked blue and red) or the front set? I think the front should be 3 and back 4.

Yes this is what I am trying to figure out. I was able to fit 5 bays in there based on the matte painting designs seen in the photo with Han and Chewbacca repairing the Falcon, not based on that cross section. The matte paintings show very narrow hangar bays. This is why I think they could be 5 instead of 4. 

 

On February 3, 2018 at 12:55 AM, JangoFett140 said:

The part of problem with that wall is that’s where the camera is positioned for a lot of shots in ESB. So we have lots of straight on shots of the Xwing wall but only parts of the Snowspeeder one. 

EDIT: Been watching ESB at half speed and noticed in the background of this shot that you can see an X-Wing in the last bay on the Snowspeeder side when Luke gets in his speeder.

That justifies their original plans. 
Sorry for the delay. 

 

16 hours ago, dvogon said:

Yes, that X-Wing closer to the main door appears in the plans I posted earlier in this page. However, the small hangar bays in the plans contradict what appears in the film, which are big X-Wing sized bays. The scene gives the impression that there are more snowspeeders than those that actually fit in the studios, so in that extent the plans are more accurate to the desired base.

 

Only issue with that plan is you can clearly see their 3 bay design in the film. My guess is that those bays are not the same length as the x-wings. They are much shorter, only the last bay is longer because they decided to cut further into the ice. 

When you look at the movie stills and see how tight they are in the bays, and then compare the size of them to an x-wing. You can see the bays are shorter by 2 or 3 feet.