General Magma

Lack of original themes

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Was pointing out that yes, licensed is becoming more and more prevalent and 'taking a bigger piece of the pie' despite the fact that the relative amount of original themes have remained comparatively steady over the time period mentioned (whether one personally defines those cited themes as original content is a manner of semantics and using a consistent definition for example: themes based on an original idea vs existing license or intellectual property is more accurate [even if the themes aren't what one wants, I'm not enamored by all of the 'original themes' either]). Am also aware of the type of themes being discussed (and again was also mentioned in the post) as its not exactly an unspoken subject among AFOL, on the contrary its mentioned and discussed on a regular basis, there are a number of ongoing and frequent new threads on the subject and yet I agree and would like to see the return and changes many yearn for.

The reason why I segued to MOCing is because it seems no matter how much its desired, discussed, repeated and debated (bring back classic space, pirates, castle, viking, historic etc), like has been said; licensed content is taking over and we (AFOL) are probably not going to change TLG's mind seeing as we only constitute a single-digit percentage of total sales, so might as well make what we like with what is available instead of waiting, wishing and hoping for Lego to listen and finally cater. One of the few positive takeaways.

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Well, take into account that since 2014-2015 there's:

- a Star Wars movie taking additionnal place every year.

- Lego movies have an obscene amount of sets dedicated to them.

- Lego mixed Castle + token futuristic/wacky/one of a kind theme into everyone's favourite Nexo Knight.

I sadly can't stray from a certain theme because of $ + space requirements, but this situation pisses me off for both collectors and MOCers of certain themes. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, ShaydDeGrai said:

I'm with you on this one.  I love that my daughter (now ~2.5) enjoys her Duplo so much.  I make it a point to get her generic sets (ordering on-line) and my wife and I make a conscious effort to shield her from excess branding and marketing, but the moment we walk in to the local toy store my daughter runs over to the Duplo aisle and EVERY SINGLE KIT is a licensed theme (mostly Disney).  

When we go to playgroups, I see kids fighting over the (licensed) figures and ignoring the bricks themselves.  Call me old fashioned (or older than dirt) but that's just wrong.  When I sit down with my daughter and she breaks out her (generic) Duplo animals its always "let's build a pool for the penguins" or "let's make a tree for the squirrel".  She names the human figures and makes up stories for them while building houses and trains and whatever else the story requires.  I watch other kids playing and the story begins and ends with "Hey I got Spiderman!" "Oh yeah, I got Micky Mouse" and the bricks might as well be uneaten Cracker Jack, the kids treat the (licensed) figures like a prize and barely notice the rest.

As for "regular" Lego Bricks, I hear your pain but appreciate the role licensed themes have had in bringing TLG back from the brink.  I must also admit that I have a pretty extensive collection of UCS kits.  Still, give me a nice generic Creator Expert kit over yet another licensed remake any day.  I'm not even that taken with the new Downtown Diner but I just ordered one anyway because I just couldn't get excited about building yet another snowspeeder (I have eight variations on this theme already and doing it in tan and calling it a sandspeeder isn't going to make the experience feel "fresh".)

 I do miss the classics.  There was a clean simplicity to the basic themes like space, pirates and castle that encouraged creativity and imaginative play in a way that even the modern, in-house IP successors like Nexo-Knights and Ninjago just seem to lack.  Too much of the narrative is directed; too much of the focus is on building "So-in-So's whatch-ma-call-it" as opposed to just building something that would exist in that world.  I appreciate that it's easier to market a tie-in, particularly if it ties to a recurring TV show, comic or frequently watched movie, but it's a shame that that same "iconic recognition" sometimes makes the Lego experience less open-ended.

@ShaydDeGrai Sorry for the full quote. But this is so true, every single point you raise. :thumbup: And especially the paragraph about the Classics and how much of a narrative is channeled nowadays (like, you even have comics and TV series going along with Nexo Knights and Ninjago).

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On 23/1/2018 at 3:30 AM, fred67 said:

.. they know what they are doing... focus groups, sales trends...

They certainly don't and mess up heavily from time to time.

Chima was supossed to be the biggest bang TLG ever launched with the most expensive ad campaign TLG had done up to that point. Well, that line was trash, did not sell very well and what freakin' genius at TLG thought it was a good idea to launch a theme DIRECTLY aimed at the same endusers as Ninjago? A theme that was and is extremely popular. Granted Ninjago was supposed to be fazed out with the introduction of Chima (hey, it's that marketing genius at TLG again) but retailers liked Ninjago too much so they had to huddle up yet another year of of that theme in a hurry .. Hence Chima and Ninjago on the same shelf that year

That was bloody stupid

TLG also had a much more fleshed out second year of The Simpsons (many more sets) but nobody (the retailers) wanted that so it got canned

I have an nine year old son and in his school I'm known for as "LEGO Ole" :laugh: and while my son has a rather large SW collection it really is my classic stuff that's interesting the boys (and gals) in his class

I've done my own inquiries into this "focus group" and NONE of them find that stuff (classic space, castle and pirates from the eighties/early ninties), "simple", "boring builds", do not complain about lack of details on the minifigs etc

They do like that "everything fits together" and it's "big". By this I think they mean worldbuilding and a coherence in a theme

They like that it LOOKS LIKE LEGO and do seem botherd by the fact there are no classic space/castle/pirate cartoons to go with it

Also, when I had a 12V train setup it proved to be very popular, especially with all the automated switches, electric cranes etc

And lastly, neither the boys nor girls seem to have ANY BLOODY INTEREST IN HELICOPTORS!

I'm positive I wouldn't be numba one cool daddy if I had the entire Chima theme lined up ready to play with :wink: (The other parents would probably label me a weirdo and limit their childrens access to my man-cave)

Cheers,

Ole

 

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6 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

As you can see, the Licensed Themes already have a pretty sizable advantage in terms of sets. However, the gap between the two grows significantly if you factor in total price. Practically every set over $250 last year was licensed, which heavily tilts the scale. Also, the fact that almost every new Lego theme released in the last five years has been licensed only indicates that that gap will continue to grow.

I have to question something about this, though: especially at these price points, how much does "licensed vs. non-licensed" actually tell us about the design philosophy of these sets? Let's look at some examples of each. Big Ben and Taj Mahal are some iconic $200+ sets. They are non-licensed, but at the same time, they are directly and entirely based on pre-existing, non-LEGO material, the same way most Ultimate Collectors' Series Star Wars sets are. They are no more unique or original than a licensed set, and their appeal depends just as heavily on buyers' familiarity with their non-LEGO subjects. Most $200+ sets for over a decade have been these kinds of sets based directly on non-LEGO subject matter, that's not in any way a new or recent trend. Nor a surprising one — people who buy in at these price points will usually do so on the basis of some kind of pre-existing familiarity.

Contrast this with Joker Manor and Ninjago City. While these sets are technically tied to a Warner Bros license, LEGO designers and concept artists played a foundational role not only in designing the sets but also in designing the movie scenes the sets are based on! This is a fundamentally different design philosophy than a UCS Star Wars set or a Creator Expert landmark series set. Treating these sets as if they are less original than Big Ben or the Taj Mahal feels misleading if not actively deceptive.

On a wider scale, this can apply to almost the entire LEGO Ninjago Movie line (characters included). Kids don't desire these sets or minifigures because they recognize them from some non-LEGO origins, the way they might with a Spider-Man or Batman set. LEGO created the characters, the sets, and the world. I almost would consider themes like Ninjago and Nexo Knights MORE original in this respect than themes like City, Pirates, or Castle that are based on widely-recognized, iconic, and archetypical non-LEGO imagery, and rarely change or develop those ideas in ways that would greatly defy the expectations people have of their real-life counterparts.

It's not that kids can't enjoy castles that don't have tank treads, but they've probably seen tanks without tank treads a billion times in a billion different (LEGO and non-LEGO) contexts. A castle that does something they've never seen a castle do before can be enjoyed in a way they've never enjoyed a castle before. It's new. It's different. It is, by definition, original. And by creating sets that explore possibilities kids have never seen explored, LEGO opens kids' minds to those possibilities in a way "normal" sets might not. If a ninja can drive a motorcycle and fight snake monsters, why can't a pirate fly a spaceship and fight aliens? If a castle tower can transform into a spaceship, why can't a windmill transform into a helicopter? Etc.

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8 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

Also, the fact that almost every new Lego theme released in the last five years has been licensed only indicates that that gap will continue to grow.

 

What counts as a new theme though?

Take City, it may have the umbrella label of City, but in reality it is a constantly evolving collection of sub-themes, continually refreshed so in 2018 Mountain Police and Mining, 2017 Coast Guard, Jungle, Police, 2016 Airport, Volcano, Prison Island, 2015 Deep Sea, Swamp Police, Space Centre, 2014 Arctic, Police, ....

If there was a recurring castle theme (or space theme), would it count as new?

They have gone more down the route of longer lived themes too. So Ninjago, Chima, Ninjago rebooted, Nexo Knights. One year themes are nice, but so are the longer lived themes that allow them to develop a bit of story line through new characters within the theme.

 

But I think more important when looking back at classic vs modern is what and how kids play. In the 19070s/80s, playing cowboys and indians or pirates was fairly common, so was Robin Hood, knights, vikings, etc. When I think about what my kids have played over the past five years, they've dressed up as knights and vikings occasionally, but never Robin Hood or cowboys or indians. They've dressed up as modern day jobs too, fire, police, doctor, nurse, etc. And fancy dress parties, I occasionally see a kid dressed up as Jack Sparrow, but rarely a generic pirate. Most kids seem to dress up as a licensed character (and very often Disney owned) rather than a generic one. I think that is the way society has gone. LEGO just reflects that.

 

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2 hours ago, 1974 said:

Chima was supossed to be the biggest bang TLG ever launched with the most expensive ad campaign TLG had done up to that point. Well, that line was trash, did not sell very well and what freakin' genius at TLG thought it was a good idea to launch a theme DIRECTLY aimed at the same endusers as Ninjago?

I actually think that Chima was important for LEGO in the evolution of set design and its influence on other lines.

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6 hours ago, RetroInferno said:

Lego movies have an obscene amount of sets dedicated to them.

At least so far, compared to TT produced Lego videogames, four of the five cinematic movies are centered on a original property and/or characters. More likely than not, perhaps sets for both The Lego Movie sequel and The Billion Brick Race will help make up for such an absence of smaller scaled themes and genres, both with an "obscene" amount of sets.

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12 hours ago, koalayummies said:

What do you mean by 2017 had only Nexo and Ninjago as themes?

Those are the only original action/adventure/historical SYSTEM themes LEGO had in 2017.

You counting Boost as a theme is laughable, same with CMF. Classic, Creator, Education are pretty much the same thing. Then there are minidoll sets that don't count.

We are complaining about a lack of minifigure based action/adventure/historical themes. 2017 had Nexo and NinjaGo which are very similar and 2009 had Agents, Caste, Pirates, Power Miners and Space Police 3, spies, castles, pirates, sci-fi rock diggers and space police. That was a well balanced year.

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I have noticed this problem too, and from my perspective, I'm not interested in collecting most of the licensed stuff, mainly because it's not something I'm a fan of. On one hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with it because as a child, I would have loved Star Wars in Lego, which we never had then. I even pretended at some point that some of the Fabuland figures were Ewoks. What does concern me is the fact that sometimes Lego makes these sets which are hideously expensive (over £100) and I can imagine many parents having to say no to their kids if they want the Joker Mansion, for instance, or the Death Star or Millennium Falcon, and then having to deal with disappointed kids. Even as an adult, I balk at those prices, even when I am a fan of it.

The main problem I have with the licensed sets, and most of Lego's original themes, is the seeming lack of interchangeability of them. I was looking at the new sets and saw that there were a couple of farm sets (something which I've been on the look out for as they'd go well with what I want to create), but then found out that they were Minecraft ones and so the feeling of meh replaced the feeling of excitement. I don't think it's wrong that they do licensed sets, but there should be room for traditional themes too, and what children play with and get bought is down to their parents and family.

Edited by Isavarg

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Though it may be smaller than other demographics that Lego would be catering to mostly, there is a market for themes and genres that are more archetypical and storybook like in their nature. I mean, who's buying all those Playmobil playsets?

Couldn't Lego at least do a theme that resembles the "regular" Collectable Minifigure line, as in that it's a collection of one off themed sets? It could start off with six to eight sets, each ranging across a wide spectrum of themes and genres, from Space to Castle, Adventurers to Agents, and even a whole universe of other archetypical genres that Lego has never touched upon before. In other words, all these themes would become subthemes under a large umbrella theme, returning to each of them periodically when wished.

That is why I love the Creator theme conceptually, as it can cover everything and anything! :sweet:

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I do agree that this is an ever-increasing issue. I went into my dark ages in 2011, and returning to LEGO around 2016 was definitely a really strange experience. 2009 was a fantastic year that had Castle, Pirates, Bionicle, City, Power Miners, Space Police, Agents... Tons of variety on the shelves to balance out the licensed themes that were also available. When I returned to the hobby, I fully expected some themes to still be around. City of course never dies, so that wasn't surprising - but I thought Castle at least would still be in production, or Space of some variety. It was surprising to see so few slots for original themes; surprising too, to look back on what I had missed during my dark ages and see that licensing like Lord of the Rings had for a time become the Castle equivalent, as I remembered people in 2009 insisting that such a thing would never happen.

It feels like, crucially, the difference between now and 2009 is the sheer number of themes. 2009 had multiple clearly defined themes with their own clearly defined aesthetics; whereas now, in 2018, we have fewer original themes, and to compensate for that, TLG are smashing a lot of aesthetics together to try to still cover all bases. Hence we have a Creator set incoming that is both a City-esque civilian rollercoaster and pirate themed, to appeal to those who miss Pirates; we have Nexo Knights mixing sci-fi Space elements with Castle; we have Ninjago which is arguably the clearest-cut of the newer themes (ninjas are fairly easy to understand) but also incorporates flying machines and pirates at various points. 

The result is that LEGO's current original offerings are muddled to say the least, in comparison to the very concise premises of the themes they had in 2009. These current original themes are increasingly connected to exterior media also - TV shows, movies - and have developed their own mythologies that mimic licensed themes. Rather than getting a bunch of random knights and orcs, and getting to decide what each character is like, we're increasingly being given story lines. That has some benefits, but I would like more themes like City and Creator that don't do that; that allow kids to decide what each minifigure is like.

Licensed themes also contribute to one of the biggest concerns I've noticed in the AFOL community since 2009 - pricing. It is doubtless that large licences like Disney have inflated the prices on sets - Star Wars in particular is shockingly more expensive than it was in 2009. Therefore another reason why LEGO needs to produce more original in-house content is to provide more affordable sets; last year's Ninjago Movie theme was great for pricing, and I'd like some more variety. 

Ultimately, licensed themes are fallible. There is no guarantee that the popularity of some IP will not plummet. There is always a risk to be taken. While some IP's (Star Wars) will likely never die, it's never a bad idea to have an immutable, always recognisible classic backup in the form of some knights or generic spacemen. 

 

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47 minutes ago, AnnaBuildsLego said:

we have Ninjago which is arguably the clearest-cut of the newer themes (ninjas are fairly easy to understand) but also incorporates flying machines and pirates at various points. 

My biggest nitpicking gripe I have with the Ninjago theme is that it slaps together medieval and modern influences together in a rather tacked on way. At times, the theme has ninjas in colorful, medieval garb piloting vehicles that seem to be powered by modern technology. Why can't you have the medieval ninjas piloting steampunk/clockpunk/DaVinci-punk type technology instead; or visa versa, outfit the ninjas in armored, mecha pilot like suits to fly around in their fighter jets?

If that theme aesthetically took either one of those two directions instead, I'd more than likely be on board!

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3 hours ago, Maple said:

Those are the only original action/adventure/historical SYSTEM themes LEGO had in 2017.

You counting Boost as a theme is laughable, same with CMF. Classic, Creator, Education are pretty much the same thing. Then there are minidoll sets that don't count.

We are complaining about a lack of minifigure based action/adventure/historical themes. 2017 had Nexo and NinjaGo which are very similar and 2009 had Agents, Caste, Pirates, Power Miners and Space Police 3, spies, castles, pirates, sci-fi rock diggers and space police. That was a well balanced year.

There's no reason to get snarky or rude. I could have said your lack of understanding of business, profit motive and how it all relates to what Lego is doing, was laughable, but I didn't. As was already stated, you personally not considering a theme to be original is semantics, an accurate definition is: theme based on an original idea vs existing license or intellectual property. Instead of issuing a full response to someone who cannot be bothered with reading the entirety of a post, I'll just wish you the best of luck with that same old tired broken record complaint. Good luck, I'm sure if a small but repeatedly vocal group of the AFOL that constitute 5% of Lego's sales (who aren't even the target market) keep endlessly complaining amongst themselves then they're bound to change and accommodate you at any moment. 

Edited by koalayummies

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1 hour ago, AnnaBuildsLego said:

Ultimately, licensed themes are fallible. There is no guarantee that the popularity of some IP will not plummet. There is always a risk to be taken. While some IP's (Star Wars) will likely never die, it's never a bad idea to have an immutable, always recognisible classic backup in the form of some knights or generic spacemen.

1

Un-licensed themes are also fallible. Probably more than licensed.

Take themes like Alien Conquest, Galaxy Squad, Pharoah's Quest, Atlantis, Ultra Agents, etc. For the most part they were dismissed at the time by AFOLs and had discounts just like Chima and Nexo Knights.

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20 minutes ago, MAB said:

Un-licensed themes are also fallible. Probably more than licensed.

Take themes like Alien Conquest, Galaxy Squad, Pharoah's Quest, Atlantis, Ultra Agents, etc. For the most part they were dismissed at the time by AFOLs and had discounts just like Chima and Nexo Knights.

Every set has discounts. In the USA some Walmarts are clearing out Episode 8 Star Wars sets, there have been people buying the First Order Destroyer $140 normally) for $40. Discounts mean nothing anymore. I don't buy City sets unless they are 45-50% off.

The only theme listed that I think really failed in LEGO's eyes is sadly Alien Conquest as that had a second year planned that was canceled at the last minute because they needed the production time on the machines to go to better selling themes / sets. Everything else made it to their planned ending.

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2 hours ago, AnnaBuildsLego said:

Licensed themes also contribute to one of the biggest concerns I've noticed in the AFOL community since 2009 - pricing. It is doubtless that large licences like Disney have inflated the prices on sets - Star Wars in particular is shockingly more expensive than it was in 2009. Therefore another reason why LEGO needs to produce more original in-house content is to provide more affordable sets; last year's Ninjago Movie theme was great for pricing, and I'd like some more variety.

Star Wars sets have always been expensive. In 2009, the Home One set cost equivalent of $128 today for less than 800 pieces, while Darth Vader's TIE Fighter cost what would be $35 today for around 250 parts. Not much different from some of the prices on today's sets, and arguably worse than some of them. If anything's changed, it's that the theme has expanded to include more bigger sets, which naturally have a price to match.

1 hour ago, Digger of Bricks said:

My biggest nitpicking gripe I have with the Ninjago theme is that it slaps together medieval and modern influences together in a rather tacked on way. At times, the theme has ninjas in colorful, medieval garb piloting vehicles that seem to be powered by modern technology. Why can't you have the medieval ninjas piloting steampunk/clockpunk/DaVinci-punk type technology instead; or visa versa, outfit the ninjas in armored, mecha pilot like suits to fly around in their fighter jets?

If that theme aesthetically took either one of those two directions instead, I'd more than likely be on board!

Well, one reason is that kids don't especially "get" steampunk/clockpunk/DaVincipunk because they don't know much about the technological periods it's based on, whereas they are intimately familiar with modern stuff like race cars and jet aircraft. For another thing, a lot of Ninjago's appeal comes from the sheer novelty and silliness of it mashing up ideas that normally DON'T "belong" together. You can compare it on some levels with stuff like the webcomic "The Adventures of Dr. McNinja", which had a modern-day Irish-American ninja who is also a doctor and fights enemies like vampires, pirates, and Paul Bunyans (plural) with the help of his Mexican velociraptor-riding gunslinger sidekick. If it generally made sense it wouldn't be as funny, audaciously over-the-top, and unlike stuff kids are used to seeing.

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41 minutes ago, Maple said:

Every set has discounts.
 

 

Yes, they do. What is missing is the sales data, which only LEGO knows. Presumably, for example, Nexo Knights (and Chima before it) has done well enough to allow it to keep going whereas Ultra Agents wave 3 didn't get its expected release in Europe. I imagine the one year non-licensed themes (Alien Conquest, Galaxy Squad, Pharoah's Quest, Atlantis, Ultra Agents, etc) were simply not performing well enough. Whether this is down to sales figures, production or design costs, lack of advertising, short life of theme, customer loyalty to the theme, etc we will never know. However, I doubt that LEGO would cut the un-licensed themes if they were making more money from them than what has replaced them in terms of production capacity and shelf space.

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55 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Well, one reason is that kids don't especially "get" steampunk/clockpunk/DaVincipunk because they don't know much about the technological periods it's based on, whereas they are intimately familiar with modern stuff like race cars and jet aircraft. For another thing, a lot of Ninjago's appeal comes from the sheer novelty and silliness of it mashing up ideas that normally DON'T "belong" together. You can compare it on some levels with stuff like the webcomic "The Adventures of Dr. McNinja", which had a modern-day Irish-American ninja who is also a doctor and fights enemies like vampires, pirates, and Paul Bunyans (plural) with the help of his Mexican velociraptor-riding gunslinger sidekick. If it generally made sense it wouldn't be as funny, audaciously over-the-top, and unlike stuff kids are used to seeing.

At least Nexo Knights did it right in respect to properly meshing genres, and one of the main reasons I like that theme over Ninjago. The heroes in Nexo Knights at least properly dressed the part, donning whatever nanotech type armor and weaponry that was consistent with their own rides. If Nexo Knights took the approach Ninjago did, the theme would have stuck minifigures from 2013's Castle theme into tanks and called it a day.

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59 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

If Nexo Knights took the approach Ninjago did, the theme would have stuck minifigures from 2013's Castle theme into tanks and called it a day.

I actually think if LEGO did that many more AFOL would Nexo more.

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Nexo Knights is probably the only LEGO range where one of the Knights (Macy) is also a princess.. Only a few Disney sets, ONLY A FEW, have a princess who isn't the bleedin' damsel in distress.

I also feel that LEGO is lacking in Original themes. Sadly that's all I can say, because I did have some ideas on what I was going to type, but realized it would be silly.

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1 hour ago, Maple said:

I actually think if LEGO did that many more AFOL would Nexo more.

With the way the theme did turn out, it offers more for Space fans than it seemingly does for Castle fans. Now when we heard some of our first rumors of this theme back in mid-2015, I thought that there was going to be a World of Warcraft like theme in store, as some rumor sources were describing it as "Steampunk-like" (honestly, I still have no idea where they got that notion). :wacko:

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I give it 10 years before Lego is absorbed by the corporate creativity void that is Disney, in their mission to homogenise all popular creative works in a massive, global fun sponge!

 

The demise of  originality in Lego looks to have started when they hired a lot of AFOLs (at a time when Batman had been cut and before the collectible minifigs) when we were all excited about seeing something from popular culture in minifig form.

I feel that the mentality of the time carried over to TLG with these new recruits,  bringing with them a focus on turning film characters in to minifigs rather than the set design itself (aside from a handful of bricks as scenery). You only need to look on ebay to see all of the sets for sale without the figs; people even steel the figs from boxes in shops! 

 

Lego used to be all about the set as a whole and while there are some notable exceptions (e.g. trains, modular buildings etc.) they've turned in to a company that produces film merchandise.

 

Sadly I don't think there would be a place for a young Jens Nygaard Knudsen in today's Lego company, and that's sad.

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The problem with Ninjago, Chima, Nexo Knights, etc is that they are just in-house licenses. They all have defined stories (cartoons), settings, and characters. Everything is predetermined. So, they aren't comparable at all to classic themes or even modern City. 

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18 minutes ago, danth said:

The problem with Ninjago, Chima, Nexo Knights, etc is that they are just in-house licenses.

I've never thought of it that way before. That's a pretty good way of putting it. :thumbup:

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