Aesthetics and Technics

[Didumos69]

In general I have the impression that the majority of members active on the Technic forum judge models by their looks rather than by their build quality and technical quality. A pity in my opinion. I see people cheering at models with opposite Ackermann geometry. Shame on them.

This forum actually has two types of audiences: one with leaders and followers and one with people trying to discuss and discover how things work or how they can get things to work. Over time I have come to ignore the mere showing-off posts, with every time the same people cheering, more and more..

I sometimes wish their would be two forums, one for presenting end-results, MOCs, and one for WIPs, technical discussion and questions.

Another aspect of the showing-off-side of this forum is that apparently Technic models are only front-paged when they look awesome. Why not front-page a great working gearbox? Or a game-changing proof of concept. This is a Technic forum after all.

I'm curious what others think about this.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Didumos69

[legolijntje]

I just wanted to reply to this bit:

20 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

Another aspect of the showing-off-side of this forum is that apparently Technic models are only front-paged when they look awesome. Why not front-page a great working gearbox? Or a game-changing proof of concept. This is a Technic forum after all.

I don't think that this has a lot to do with the fact that gearboxes aren't great, they're just less interesting to the majority of non-Technic builders. And the frontpage is visited by everyone, also those who don't build Technic. If Technic had a special own frontpage, and it only featured good-looking models and not interesting proof-of-concepts, technical miracles and whatnot, I'd agree. But for the general-frontpage, I don't really mind.

 

[Milan]

58 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

Another aspect of the showing-off-side of this forum is that apparently Technic models are only front-paged when they look awesome. Why not front-page a great working gearbox? Or a game-changing proof of concept. This is a Technic forum after all.

35 minutes ago, legolijntje said:

I don't think that this has a lot to do with the fact that gearboxes aren't great, they're just less interesting to the majority of non-Technic builders. And the frontpage is visited by everyone, also those who don't build Technic. If Technic had a special own frontpage, and it only featured good-looking models and not interesting proof-of-concepts, technical miracles and whatnot, I'd agree. But for the general-frontpage, I don't really mind.

That's about it. We want to draw people from Eurobricks Frontpage to come to the Technic forum. That's it. Once they are here, after they finish looking at frontpaged topic, they will check it out few other topics, too.
If somebody is after a great working gearbox or game-changing proof of concept, they will try to find it on its own, mostly using search, as it is generally much more specialized thing to look for, as opposed to a big working crane, or great looking supercar or flashy show truck with chromed parts, which is interesting to really broad audience.

Technic models that are frontpaged often have a great deal of time and effort poured into them, and that usually means some great building techniques, functions, or at the end, just a great deal of visually pleasing model which has working functions, which is worth by itself.

 

[Carsten Svendsen]

I agree. I find my self looking at models that are really nice and cool looking - rarely cars though - that I don't care about the internals anymore.

When I am building however, I'm the complete opposite. I have never created a MOC where the bodywork was lifelike, but all the functionality has always been present.

I don't know where to go with this, but I like functionality as much as the next guy, and first impressions are very important too.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Carsten Svendsen

[Erik Leppen]

Good that you start this discussion, @Didumos69. I notice the same thing - overly enthousiastic replies to models we haven't seen working because they look good, and (too?) little critique in general.

That's why I like WIP topics. They show the process rather than the end result, and I think Technic building is all about the process. (Technic building has been compared to playing chess, and the end result of a chess game is its least interesting aspect.) And that's why I like that contests require WIP topics for all entries. (I know I'm guilty myself of not always showing WIPs; currently I have a nice model in the making 90% done, but I will probably rebuild and then show the progress.

About looks. That frontpaged models are selected on looks isn't surprising - they are for a non-Technic audience to pull into the theme. But that the same goes for the Hall of Fame bothers me more. And not only are models selected on good looks, they are also selected on good photography, which has even less to do with Technic. At least good looks are a quality of the model itself.

One way to mitigate this, is to show more of the insides of our models. I think an underside shot is required at the least (but most models have that, so that's good), but body-removed shots should also be given to show the insides. Videos showing the functions would be even better, unfortunately I don't like making them myself. Digital renders showing the innards are good too, but making those requires specialist knowledge not everyone has.

Actually, the only way to give the best critique possioble is to build the model (a model's building process is part of its quality; a part often forgotten I think. That's part of why I like set 8448 so much) and try it yourself. However, understandably, most viewers (myself included) won't take the time needed for this.

 

[DrJB]

While I agree with many of the OP's points, this is bound to be a bit of a 'sensitive' discussion as we might get some forum members a bit offended. Yes, I've gotten to a point where I simply 'ignore' many posts (I get an email with every new thread) as after a while, one gets numb to all the 'basic' questions and sub-par MOCs. My approach here is: well, I started there myself sometime back as well and there should be a way to encourage new-comers. If you list all the threads that have 'Ferrari' or 'Lamborghini' in their title, some are worthy of a frontpage, others are, well, ... no need to offend anyone :). Maybe the way to address this is to split the forum further into sub-levels but then it becomes tricky to navigate, and we might miss important/interesting threads/discussions. My 0.02 worth

Edited January 13, 2018 by DrJB

[BrickbyBrickTechnic]

3 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

Over time I have come to ignore the mere showing-off posts, with every time the same people cheering, more and more..

What qualifies as a showing-off post? A MOC topic? 

[doug72]

This is a problem in TC contests when looks out-way technical merits, when voting is open to non technic forum members.

I also feel supercars are should have a sub forum.

One  solution is how the TC contests are organised

 i.e. a WIP topic with A Completed topic to show it in action etc.

 

 

[andythenorth]

[shrug] 

I don't disagree with the OP that this happens, but so what eh?  

[Sariel]

4 hours ago, Didumos69 said:

I see people cheering at models with opposite Ackermann geometry. Shame on them.

Fun fact: opposite Ackermann geometry exists and is used in the real world. A number of Lotus F1 cars used it, for example. Quite from Wikipedia: Some racing cars use reverse Ackermann geometry to compensate for the large difference in slip angle between the inner and outer front tyres while cornering at high speed. The use of such geometry helps reduce tyre temperatures during high-speed cornering but compromises performance in low-speed manoeuvres.

So I guess shame on the people who jump to conclusions without doing research first ;) As for the looks VS functions discussion, I really think it's pointless because in the end you can't order people what to appreciate and what not to appreciate in a model. If someone cares for looks more than for functions, is he wrong? Does look of a model matters less if it has Technic functions? People will like what they want, and you just have to roll with it. 

PS. Personally I think the trend to create more sub-forums is extremely harmful. First, the categories are very arbitrary, because at which point does my Technic car become a Technic supercar? And two, scale models were separated from Technic into a separate sub-forum and look what happened. This sub-forum is almost dead because Technic audience stayed in Technic sub-forum.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Sariel

[Aventador2004]

2 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Fun fact: opposite Ackermann geometry exists and is used in the real world. A number of Lotus F1 cars used it, for example. Quite from Wikipedia: Some racing cars use reverse Ackermann geometry to compensate for the large difference in slip angle between the inner and outer front tyres while cornering at high speed. The use of such geometry helps reduce tyre temperatures during high-speed cornering but compromises performance in low-speed manoeuvres.

So I guess shame on the people who jump to conclusions without doing research first ;) 

I remember watching a documentary on those cars, it surprised me. I think I would rather the stuff inside rather than outside, pretty evident in my builds.

[Superkoala]

As a guy who spent hours in engineering lesson, I prefer to look at the technical aspect inside a MOC instead of its looks.

Just have a look at my last creation it easy to understand. I prefer to built system instead of a good looking vehicle.

But to catch up the discussion, I do not like to make WIP topic, firstly because I do not spend enought time on my Lego to be able to present evolution. And secondly because my MOC after all are quite simple.

[Aventador2004]

Also @Didumos69, if you look, how much of the forum actually gets frontpaged!? Huh. None of the "minor" members get anything like that, so is it really a problem.

And for the amount of replies, I thought my pneumatic excavator might get a mention, but nope. So rethink the pride, how does it look for us then?

 

[technic_addict]

@Didumos69 you seem frustrated which is ok but I believe using the word "showing off" is not the terminology I would use.

Let me first say that your contribution on improvement on 42056 was absolutely invaluable.  I believe many people praised you for your work on that.  I personally followed that thread very closely and my Porsche stayed sealed until you released the errata.  So thank-you again for all of the time and effort you spent on the 42056.

I don't hide the fact that I display my models and esthetics are the most important factor for me.  I am in the engineering field, yet while I appreciate the mechanics of models, that is not as impressive for me.  I am amazed with some of the things people create but it is short lived.

It doesn't matter if people agree or not with me.  I will build what I like and praise what I like.

  If mechanical functions are most important for you, continue with that!  Do what you enjoy and love.

If you are looking more exposure, you may need to analyze what the masses want.  Hopefully you can find what you are looking for and still build with enjoyment.

I also agree with @Sariel that we should not separate the forum any further.

 

[Appie]

First of all, this has been happening for years on this forum and especially shows on contests where the non-Technic forum go-ers jump and vote for "what looks pretty". It will happen, is their opinion invalid? No, if it looks cool, it looks cool, it is still build with Technic Lego, but it might not be the most revolutionary technical build and therefore should get no appreciation?

How many revolutionary solutions can you even get in a year? Your 90 degree step limiter (brilliant in its simplicity), Jeroen Ottens 8-speed gearbox, Claas steering and probably a few more that I am forgetting. The rest boils down to "yet another gearbox", "more ackermann" etc so you start to look at other aspects of the model, like its looks. So if you build a forum which only goes for pushing the pushing the enveloppe on new mechanisms and whatnot, it would get pretty dead quick I think. And don't look at me to contribute to prevent that, I haven't come up with an original mechanism (and if I did, one that would be considered a good one) since I came back to Lego.

I don't see how one can't co-exist with the other btw. The best models imo are the ones that combine cool technical solutions with a nice body work. Take Jeroen Ottens DB11 for example, a technical feat and great bodywork to boot. And like Erik Leppen mentioned, also a joyfull building process. And it isn't rare either that a topic from a fully presented finished MOC creates a discussion on the inner workings and the creator showing this in later posts, would it then have to move to the other forum, because it goes into the technical side instead of "just praise"?

While I love reading other people make WIP topics, I personally hate making them, but that is because I don't like showing  stuff that I don't consider "finished". So even on my contest entries most, if not all were "finished" at the first post.

Dividing this forum even more is not a good idea imo, I already forgot the scale building section even existed until Sariel mentioned it just now.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Appie

[brunojj1]

I agree with Sariel to 100%. This forum is about UNITING Technic fans from all countries, regardless their building experience or personal preferences regarding anything related to Lego Technic with all of its aspects and developments over the decades. The opposite of expelling somebody or a group of people, shame or blame them for whatever.

The supercar theme is the most popular theme amongst the so called audience (mostly consisting of car-loving MEN), so you can´t do anything about it. If you´re not interested, switch gears, move on – there is plenty more to discover on other channels. Or start your own forum wherever you want. We have had the separation with a new subforum for “scale” MOCs. The “pure” Technic replicas were not welcome there, so here we are back again, showing-off, stealing the attention from other fractions, whether you like it or not.

If we talk about replicas of real vehicles, the looks are crucial. The prime example 42056 Porsche shows it clearly where the journey can go to – superb look on priority & functionality second. IMO creating a good looking bodywork requires equal building skills you would need to make a good functional chassis. If you look at a creation and it´s appealing at the first glance, you can bet the internal mechanics are equally well designed – so let´s take a closer look and enjoy the rest. If the first impression can´t get my attention, I´m not interested in the creation process, functionality, gearbox and all the more or less usefull inclinations of the front axle.

[nerdsforprez]

26 minutes ago, Aventador2004 said:

Also @Didumos69, if you look, how much of the forum actually gets frontpaged!? Huh. None of the "minor" members get anything like that, so is it really a problem.

 

 

This is simply not true.  There are many "new" members, especially as of late that have submitted terrific builds, and they are front paged.  Members that are considered "minor" simply because they do not post much or are new.  @Dawid_Szmandra's crane is a great example of this.  Some "well-known" builders could likely get pretty much every single one of their builds front-paged (like perhaps @sariel) but they are not, to make room for new builders and those that may not post often, but submit something awesome. 

 

30 minutes ago, Aventador2004 said:

 

And for the amount of replies, I thought my pneumatic excavator might get a mention, but nope. So rethink the pride, how does it look for us then?

 

Lets not turn the discussion into this.  People upset b/c their builds don't get the recognition they think they deserve.  I am not sure what you mean by "rethink the pride" - but just b/c something does not get the attention we want it to lets not accuse others of stuff.  My models never get tons of attention, but guess why, because they simply are not of the quality of others' builds.  I know it, am aware of it, and accept it.   Personally, I build for the enjoyment of it, not for others recognition.  I like to share, but others responses won't dictate the enjoyment I get from building with Lego.  Commenting that one's post doesn't get the comments one thinks it should has nothing to do with the OP's initial questions.......

 

 

[Aventador2004]

21 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

This is simply not true.  There are many "new" members, especially as of late that have submitted terrific builds, and they are front paged.  Members that are considered "minor" simply because they do not post much or are new.  @Dawid_Szmandra's crane is a great example of this.  Some "well-known" builders could likely get pretty much every single one of their builds front-paged (like perhaps @sariel) but they are not, to make room for new builders and those that may not post often, but submit something awesome. 

Lets not turn the discussion into this.  People upset b/c their builds don't get the recognition they think they deserve.  I am not sure what you mean by "rethink the pride" - but just b/c something does not get the attention we want it to lets not accuse others of stuff.  My models never get tons of attention, but guess why, because they simply are not of the quality of others' builds.  I know it, am aware of it, and accept it.   Personally, I build for the enjoyment of it, not for others recognition.  I like to share, but others responses won't dictate the enjoyment I get from building with Lego.  Commenting that one's post doesn't get the comments one thinks it should has nothing to do with the OP's initial questions......

Well yes, I let myself go overboard, but for the point of saying small engineering projects should be frontpaged is silly, that would be like frontpaging every build here. Something is always improving, and I didn't want anything for my excavator, I thought of a (stupid) example. And finally, I also build for fun, but I can't improve everything on my own.

Also I know your projects are good, and your points are right.

[aminnich]

You can really tell the members that are looking for attention toward their build versus the members that are genuinely looking for design ideas or looking for help trying to figure out a problem.  

For example, @Doug72 is a great example of a builder that builds machines that I personally have never seen before.  A lot of the time, those machines have complicated mechanisms.  I believe Doug is the type of person that tries and fails (not a bad thing) a number of times before he presents his question of how something could be achieved.  A number of people will try and help him and the problem gets solved and he can move on with his build.  

In my opinion, this is what the forum should be like.  Being able to ask for help on a build and someone from the other side of the world could be helping you.  That is amazing. 

I 100% disagree with people coming on here looking for attention.  Now, I think being an active member and a newbie doing that could be 2 different situations.  The newbies post once and kind of disappear sometimes, but their creations are front-paged because they are truly amazing.  As @nerdsforprez mentioned, @Dawid_Szmandra's crane is a great example of this. 

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by aminnich

[DugaldIC]

I love the internals, functions and playability just as much as the next but building a good looking body can be just as difficult as building a chassis. Yes with all these flashy cars you may not have the pure "in system"  that Lego produces but that's the beauty of Lego. You can build whatever you like however you like and sometimes to get the right shapes you have to get creative.

I  guess all I'm saying is we should all just get along and work together, there's no sense in breaking up the group. Everyone has there own style, building techniques and knowledge of mechanics so trying to shun someone or some build because it looks better than it functions is a little ignorant to me. I think we all need to relax a little and try to find the beauty in all builds. Helping where we can, helping not tearing apart because it's not their style. 

That's just my two cents, there's plenty to see from phenomenal technical aspects to beautiful styled builds. But to try and tear this awesome forum apart would be a shame. We should all be able to jump through to something we like in the first few pages and see a load of inspirational posts from people's works and efforts, regardless of the build. 

[proran]

My thoughts on this are the same with @Sariel. The looks versus functions is a always a compromise and a decision to make during the building and thus it is a totally personal choice. I don't support the subforums either. 

In addition, creation of WIP topics versus MOC topics is also should be a personal choice. It just depends on the kind of person you are. Some just don't like to show the unfinished work.

The bottom line is, you can't force people to create better MOCs or better topics in the forum by force. I honestly don't see that introduction of some sort of strict rules for posting the MOCs will improve the overall quality of the builds and presentation. It can filter out certain type of posts, for sure. But this is what happened in Scale Modelling. Basically now only top notch models are allowed there, and look what happened, the forum is dead. It is still a nice place to visit once a month, but I don't want that to happen to the entire Technic corner of Eurobricks. Come on, it is the most welcoming place on the whole Internet after all. Let's keep it this way. As @DrJB said, it is really simple to filter the topics you like by yourself .You need 300 ms to understand, if the thread worth reading or not.

[knotian]

What front page???   My bookmark is to this forum where I can see all things technic. Good, bad, and indifferent.

[Johnny1360]

52 minutes ago, knotian said:

What front page???   My bookmark is to this forum where I can see all things technic. Good, bad, and indifferent.

Me too, as a relative new comer to the world of technic, less than two years, I appreciate both aspects. I have yet to pull off a great looking moc, however the gearbox is my holy grail, that I strive to learn about. Also really like suspension/driveline components as well and pretty much any sort of mechanism. 

As far as reverse ackermann steering, one needs look no further than any number of circle track racers, to see it's real world application. Would not want it in a street car for sure though. 

Anyway I am more into function than form, I think in the end it's just a matter of personal preference. Lot of great moc's here in both camps, keep em' coming.

 

[Didumos69]

This has triggered quite some response, which I think is good. I didn't read everything yet, but I sure will later.

My OP sure reflects some annoyance. Using the term showing-off maybe was a bit harsh; it refers to the extreme side of the spectrum. I was triggered by the Holes in Technic MOCs topic, which made me wonder, how did we diverge from the core Technic theme so much. I wanted to express that I sometimes feel disappointed when I see the discussion is about aesthetics rather than Technic more and more. I wanted to trigger some discussion about this tendency.

However, my personal disappointment is no reason to change anything. I did say I sometimes wish showing MOCs would be in a different forum, but apparently there is a need for both aspects in a single forum and that's perfectly okay. This is how the forum has grown on the community.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Didumos69

[doug72]

48 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

I wanted to express that I sometimes feel disappointed when I see the discussion is about aesthetics rather than Technic more and more.

Totally agree with this statement, there are some of us good at aesthetics and others good at the technical side with some OK with both.
Personally I find the aesthics the hardest part of any MOC I build. I enjoy the challenge of problem solving when trying to devise mecahisms and then fit it into the space available and the actual build process. Only my better builds are kept for display but eventaully all will be broken down to build something new.

On a lighter side there are lots of holes in Lego technic - we couldn't build without them !!!!

Edited January 13, 2018 by Doug72