Eslandola Colonial Council, Second Cycle, 618, IN SESSION

[Kai NRG]

7 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

And I'm thinking, at least while we're still trying to pay for these forts, it should be each delegate. Maybe that'll solve the funding crisis!

  At least it should be a spur to reach a timely decision! 

[Garmadon]

9 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

I'm glad it was taken in the spirit it was intended!

And I'm thinking, at least while we're still trying to pay for these forts, it should be each delegate. Maybe that'll solve the funding crisis!

Haha, alright!  That might just do it  

I've transfered 50 DBs from the ETWC account and 100 from mine 

[Elostirion]

Port Taxes generated by Nova Terreli this turn: 204 DBs for ESLandola.

[Capt Wolf]

Guilder set aside the latest issue of the KPA. "Well, at least Nova Terreli's port taxes have generated more than 200 DBs this month for the defense fund. But I still don't hear any solid suggestions on how to provide additional funding."

Aaron Van Der Meede arose from his seat. "I have a proposal to make. As I said earlier, now that the forts are clearly defined as belonging to the national account, I have no issue with asking the trade companies to contribute financially to protecting their investments. Thus, I propose that the trade companies be taxed an amount equal to the upkeep costs of fortifications in their settlements. This would include all fortifications in Bardo, Weelond, and Salida Este for the MCTC, Elysabethtown and Trador for MAESTRO, and Pontelli and Port Wilks for the ETWC, and any future settlements established or transferred to a trade company."

"An interesting proposal, Mr. Van Der Meede," replied Guilder, "and one I think worthy of consideration. Will any other delegation second this proposal?"

[Capt Wolf]

Guilder looked out over the council hall. Some members chatting away, some reading the paper, some sleeping, and some had stepped away. Nobody paying attention to the business at hand. He contemplated more fines ...

OOC: Anybody there? @Garmadon @gedren_y @Kai NRG @Legostone @Faladrin @Umbra-Manis

[Kai NRG]

Yeah, I'm here.  Why?  Oh! we had had a proposal.  Right, missed that somehow!

Of course as a TC rep I think it's an awful proposal. 

Seriously though, I'm interested in hearing what others think - you won't catch me seconding it though.  I think it's liable to be slightly skewed, after all the benefits of the fort are for everyone that owns property in a settlement (including owning ships that touch at the settlement) which to me means that everyone should take a share in paying for the defense.

[Capt Wolf]

10 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

Yeah, I'm here.  Why?  Oh! we had had a proposal.  Right, missed that somehow!

Of course as a TC rep I think it's an awful proposal. 

Seriously though, I'm interested in hearing what others think - you won't catch me seconding it though.  I think it's liable to be slightly skewed, after all the benefits of the fort are for everyone that owns property in a settlement (including owning ships that touch at the settlement) which to me means that everyone should take a share in paying for the defense.

Yep, whether or not the current proposal is acted upon, so far all we have done is affirm the status quo. I'd love to hear thoughts from the council members on any course of action.

[Capt Wolf]

With the lack of suggestions from sitting council members, if any other Eslandola citizens want to write to the council prompting their representatives to advance particular proposals, please do.

[Kai NRG]

After waiting a bit to allow for discussion, Esterhazy rose.  "Since there doesn't seem to be much excitement regarding the Adminus' proposal, I'd like to make a counter proposal... I suggest a 1% flat tax on all Eslandian accounts, levied every turn."

[Elostirion]

Some random shouts came from the ranks:

 

"Just do it like thos filthy rich Fotonajos in Terreli and earn harbour taxes in all ports!"

  > 5 DBs harbour fee per ship level, regardless of your purpose
  > 20% taxation on your cargo value
  > Eslandolan vessels will not have to pay any harbour fee, but the cargo-taxation

 

"Those nasty TCs should definitely pay for their own forts!"

  > All forts in TC owned settlements will have to be paid for by the TCs.

 

"Towns must pay for some of their security!"

  > 15% of fortification costs have to be covered by the town.
  > When ESL troops are stationed in a specific town, the town has to pay 50% of their upkeep (food, housing, ...)
  > Mayors from towns in bad financial shape may ask the council to temporarily pass on these payments.

 

"Income taxes are the way to go!"

  > 1% taxation on all monthly income regardless of source (MRCA, properties, ship sales, ...)

 

"Just dissolve this useless council!"
"No, make them pay for their laziness!"

  > Councilmembers who do not respond nor make any suggestions will be fined.
  > Continuously.
  > The rules for this exist from the original foundation of the council.

 

"The council must own some factories now. We must all help. Just take the shovel and dig, or bring some bricks and build a wall."
"Sure.. as if those filthy rich bastards would help."
"Just make them pay instead, right, right?"

  > Within the next three months every member must contribute a MOC of at least 1.024 studs (32x32) which ESL can license. ESL dictates the theme.
  > Alternatively: A ship MOC of class 3 upwards
  > ESL will license all these MOCs (e.g. as a royal collaboration) to generate a revenue stream
  > Members who do not provide a MOC will have to make a one-time-payment of 150 DBs.

[Fraunces]

1 hour ago, Elostirion said:

> Within the next three months every member must contribute a MOC of at least 1.024 studs (32x32) which ESL can license. ESL dictates the theme.
   > Alternatively: A ship MOC of class 3 upwards
  > ESL will license all these MOCs (e.g. as a royal collaboration) to generate a revenue stream
  > Members who do not provide a MOC will have to make a one-time-payment of 150 DBs.

Eslandola challenge!! 

[gedren_y]

Lady Cantoni stood and remarked, "I would agree on shipping income taxing, as those numbers are more easily verified. But land income, and TC dividends, is less than one might think. TC dividends are also not consistent enough month to month for citizens to know what might be owed. The earlier proposed 2% tax (rounded upward) levied on all shipping income makes the numbers easier to track, and spreads the cost more fairly. We can do away with the ridiculous notion that taxes will prevent trade. It is too big a business for those who own ships to forego it. We are a rich enough nation that limited taxation should not be a hardship."

Viscount Doblin stood, with a slight bow to Lady Cantoni, and added, "I do think that communities should help cover the costs of their continued protection, but the levying of such isn't an immediate concern. Many townships do not yet have the kinds of income to their coffers that some TC run communities do. We can revisit township coverage of the mutual defense after some account solvency measures get put in place."

As both delegates sat Commodore Grei motioned for them to come close, and whispered something. After a moment the two nodded, then relaxed back into their seats.

[Capt Wolf]

Aaron Van Der Meede stood and looked over at the Independents delegation. "Lady Cantoni, I agree that trade company dividends can be inconsistent, but I believe the TCs can well afford to pitch in, but their philanthropy is often circumspect. I'm surprised that, as representatives of the independent traders, you did not second my proposal for the TCs to be taxed an amount equal to their settlement's fort upkeep costs. You still have the opportunity to do so."

He then looked back at the gallery before turning toward Mr. Esterhazy in the MCTC delegation. "I am warming to the idea of a universal 1% tax. While I am not yet ready to second your proposal, I am considering it."

From his desk at the front of the hall, Admius Legistrad Guilder weighed in. "I generally am opposed to taxes, but we need to do something. And there were a couple of suggestions from the gallery that I liked. So, even though it will not generate nearly enough revenue in these modern times, I will propose a building program, wherein each citizen contributes his construction efforts toward a royal property, to be completed within three months. Will anybody second this proposal?"

Guilder then looked at the desks of sleeping and absent councilmembers, none of whom had been heard from in more than a week. "While a royal property will only generate 100 DBs per month, and requires much effort, I can do better than that right now. Someone out there mentioned fines. Well, 50 DB fines for each member of the ETWC, MAESTRO, Sea of Thieves, and Prio Seas delegations for dereliction of your council duties!" WHAP! went Guilder's gavel. "That's 150 DBs total per delegation, so a quick 600 DBs for Eslandian defense! Har-har!" Guilder sat down with a smile.

OOC: @Garmadon, @Faladrin, @Legostone, @Umbra-Manis, please transfer 150 DBs each to the Eslandola account.

[Garmadon]

On 1/29/2019 at 6:59 PM, Capt Wolf said:

Aaron Van Der Meede arose from his seat. "I have a proposal to make. As I said earlier, now that the forts are clearly defined as belonging to the national account, I have no issue with asking the trade companies to contribute financially to protecting their investments. Thus, I propose that the trade companies be taxed an amount equal to the upkeep costs of fortifications in their settlements. This would include all fortifications in Bardo, Weelond, and Salida Este for the MCTC, Elysabethtown and Trador for MAESTRO, and Pontelli and Port Wilks for the ETWC, and any future settlements established or transferred to a trade company."

Sorry for taking so long for getting around to this, life's been awfully busy lately!   I think I'll just answer this one OOC since it's a bit complicated, haha.

While on the one hand I get the thinking behind the proposal and agree with the idea that the interested parties should be those who have to pay for the benefits, this seems to really almost entirely negate the decision just made by the council!  At any rate, if the ETWC is going to pay upkeep for forts in their settlements, I want them to be in the ETWC's name - no point giving away the ownership but accepting all the responsibilities.

Ultimately, I think there are only three alternatives:

1. Some kind of general income tax,
2. Some kind of an MRCA tax,
3. Privatization of forts

Or, of course, getting rid of forts altogether, which I don't think we want to do (not that Captain Nordau would mind ).

The more I think of the options, though, the more I like the idea of a 1% income tax.  It ought to work, without being too hard on anybody.  Of course, we could tax just land properties or just shipping, but I prefer the idea of not favoring one above the other so that people who specialize in either one don't get penalized.  

And, of course, I'm a fan of Colonial Council fines, 

EDiT: Great job summarizing the options, @Elos!  I'll still stick with a 1% tax, though (which should probably be charged to TC accounts too, btw).

Oh dear!  Too late by 15 minutes again!!  Boy am I bad at this 

Also, Willoughby would like to second Mr. Esterhazy proposal of a 1% tax.

[Capt Wolf]

25 minutes ago, Garmadon said:

While on the one hand I get the thinking behind the proposal and agree with the idea that the interested parties should be those who have to pay for the benefits, this seems to really almost entirely negate the decision just made by the council!

OOC: The idea was that while the TCs would cover the costs, it leaves the defense of the citizens officially in the hands of the nations, not the TCs, so that we don't simply become a confederation of TCs. It was a way of making the TCs pay without abdicating authority to them.

--------------

IC:

"The proposal for a 1% flat tax on all Eslandian accounts, levied every turn has been proposed and seconded. Members may now vote on this proposal."

Guilder turned briefly to the ETWC delegation. "My apologies for having to fine you a second time. I waited as long as I felt I could. If only I had known you were lingering in the foyer ..."

 

[gedren_y]

Lady Cantoni stood again, and replied, "Mr. Van Der Meede, I and my colleagues were elected on the promise that we would work to provide equality under the law. We mean that. If we do impose a 1% tax on all income, I suggest we amend taxation proposal to be only be on citizens of our nation, and not the trade companies. Taxing the trade companies would likely result in a measured reduction in the dividends to their shareholders, which would also be taxed. I argue that cumulative taxation betrays the spirit of our nation. Besides, MAESTRO has foreign shareholders for which this taxation would be inappropriate."

[Capt Wolf]

13 minutes ago, gedren_y said:

Lady Cantoni stood again, and replied, "Mr. Van Der Meede, I and my colleagues were elected on the promise that we would work to provide equality under the law. We mean that. If we do impose a 1% tax on all income, I suggest we amend taxation proposal to be only be on citizens of our nation, and not the trade companies. Taxing the trade companies would likely result in a measured reduction in the dividends to their shareholders, which would also be taxed. I argue that cumulative taxation betrays the spirit of our nation. Besides, MAESTRO has foreign shareholders for which this taxation would be inappropriate."

Although Lady Cantoni was speaking to Aaron Van Der Meede, representative of the Sea of Storms, after his stated consideration of the tax proposal, Willem Guilder, as Admius Legistrad and leader of the council, addressed her argument: "I understand your concern about the particulars of this tax proposal, but for now the proposal before us includes all Eslandian accounts, both citizens and trade companies. You are welcome to propose your alternative after voting on this one has concluded, and vote as you see fit on the current proposal."

 

[Kai NRG]

Before voting on the proposal, Captain Argentum stood up from the MCTC bench and turned deferentially toward Lady Cantoni.  "If the TCs were smashings together of their members' treasure, then it'd make sense not to skim off no 1% from them, since that'd be like taxing members twice.  But TCs own lots of stuff themselves and I dunno about the rest of 'em, but we sure don't pay no direct dividends to our members, tho we do make sharing schemes easier.  If we decided not to tax the TCs nohow, that'd be what you may call a leaking plank and TC members could stash their doubloons in their TC and avoid them taxes.  Besides, my mate Fernando or whoever else is figureheading for this creaky ship of a nation 'd be missin' out on a hunk of shiny booty that TCs make from ships and plantations and factories and other such land-lubbers' concerns.  I vote aye to my fellow MCTC-er's unamended suggestion."

Chef Jalape nodded his head. "Aye!"

"Aye."  Esterhazy added.

Three ayes to the 1% tax proposal from the MCTC bench.

OOC: Exempting TCs is too great a benefit for TC members and leaves way too many options for tax evasion.  We're proposing taxing bank accounts as they rest at the end of a turn,* so if a TC has a sharing scheme and/or is paying dividends to members, those dividends won't get taxed in the TCs' account, they'll get taxed when they make it to the members' account (so as long as a TC is prompt in paying every turn, foreigner's dividends will be exempt from tax).  The only case in which they might get taxed twice would be if they were left in the TC's account for an extra turn.  But if we don't tax TCs, it becomes advantageous for members to stash their DBs in the TC bank account and only take them out the month they're needed by the player.  It's the same loophole we thought we might have had to face with the Bank of Corrington.

*remember that all property returns (and upkeep) are now scheduled by MRCA turns - so this is not a monthly tax, it's also scheduled by MRCA turns

Edited February 8, 2019 by Kai NRG

[Tezclatipoca]

Lady condor stood up outraged :

"A fine ! How dare you...

As a proud member of MAESTRO, I would have never seconded the TCs would pay for their settlements forts upkeep, it was a tricky proposition, I would have never seconded this nonsense !"

She sat down immediately mumbling something about paperwork and scratching a piece of paper to be read by her neighbour, Dr Ayuda.

The doctor, quite silent this session, is reading :

"Erh... it's a No from Lady Condora against the global 1% taxation proposal.

But As I am not seeing another good issue to finance the forts upkeep it a Yes from me and a Yes from Chief Apulo I think... is it chief ? "

"Indeed"  profondly answered the native with a deep voice.

That's 1 No and 2 yes for the Prio Sea Delegation.

 

[Capt Wolf]

Aaron Van Der Meede stood. "Captain Argentum 's argument is persuasive. It is important that the tax be fair, and that obvious loopholes are plugged. And I know the MCTC can afford the tax. I have decided to vote 'Aye' on the proposal."

Reyngout rose briefly to add "It is an 'Aye' from me as well."

At the front desk, Guilder spoke: "It is known I am not a fan of taxes, but this tax appears to have support. So, in the absence of any other strong proposals, and in my role as a member of the Sea of Storms delegation, I too will vote 'Aye'."

---

That's 3 Ayes for the 1% tax. We still need votes from @Garmadon, @Legostone, @gedren_y, and @Umbra-Manis.

---

OOC:

19 hours ago, Faladrin said:

"A fine ! How dare you...

As a proud member of MAESTRO, I would have never seconded the TCs would pay for their settlements forts upkeep, it was a tricky proposition, I would have never seconded this nonsense !"

Just to be clear, it was not just about the TC tax proposal; it had been a week since I had called for input for any suggestions. Yes, the fines are a bit of an IC flourish, but all of the members of the council are rich enough to afford a fine now and then.

[Garmadon]

Three Ayes from the ETWC delegation, though not without some grumbling by Agent Guelds about being forced (by Willouhgby) to vote for taxes... 

[Bregir]

From the backbenches, a Corlander delegate was struggling with his notes. The discussion was finally progressing and the Eslandians seemed to have abandoned the notion of taxing shipping, which would not have been popular in Belson.

However, there seemed to be some confusion or latent disagreement as to whether the 1% were to apply to income or wealth. After scratching out his conclusions several times, he was now scratching his head in surrender, thinking how muddled statecraft was under republicanism. If only someone were to make an explicit comment about it...

[Capt Wolf]

Just now, Bregir said:

From the backbenches, a Corlander delegate was struggling with his notes. The discussion was finally progressing and the Eslandians seemed to have abandoned the notion of taxing shipping, which would not have been popular in Belson.

However, there seemed to be some confusion or latent disagreement as to whether the 1% were to apply to income or wealth. After scratching out his conclusions several times, he was now scratching his head in surrender, thinking how muddled statecraft was under republicanism. If only someone were to make an explicit comment about it...

Wealth, as measured by account balance. As an example, an account with 20,000 DBs balance will be taxed 200 DBs that turn; an account with 800 DBs will be taxed 8 DBs.

[Elostirion]

Really? I thought the voting was about income tax?

[gedren_y]

12 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

Wealth, as measured by account balance. As an example, an account with 20,000 DBs balance will be taxed 200 DBs that turn; an account with 800 DBs will be taxed 8 DBs.

(OOC: Not my understanding at all! I wouldn't have bothered with any of my arguments if that were the case. I thought we were discussing INCOME TAX.)