Bart Posted January 22, 2019 If I where Eslandonian, I would question the cost/profit value of the fortresses. How often did they actually do their job? compared to how much they cost? How good did they do that job? Maybe that way they could reduce costs? Spoiler No I'm not advocating the closing of forts from a searat perspective no not at all, why would you think that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim I Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, Bart said: If I where Eslandonian, I would question the cost/profit value of the fortresses. How often did they actually do their job? compared to how much they cost? How good did they do that job? Maybe that way they could reduce costs? Hide contents No I'm not advocating the closing of forts from a searat perspective no not at all, why would you think that. We Eslandolans don't evaluate forts based on their cost/profit value, but more on their cost/prestige value. I don't want to be the mayor of a settlement with a meager small fort I would not dare to show up at the fancy parties... They would all talk behind my back, stating that I am a poor guy... Now I think about it, time to make a royal fortress for Trador Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bart Posted January 22, 2019 So you take prestige of your town having a large fort, but you let the faction pay for it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted January 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Maxim I said: Right now, Eslandolan players and companies are sitting on a cash mount of 220k. My biggest disappointment in all of BoBS is the fact that all you gold-coated, gold-crusted, gold-dusted Greenies haven't erected giant statues of yourselves made from pure gold, with gold pigeons leaving behind gold nugget droppings, with hot fountains of liquid gold spewing into a pond of goldfish swimming at the base. Bummer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bregir Posted January 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Maxim I said: Only flaw: some people have an account in the BoC Actually, the BoC has cashed out, or is in the process of cashing out, all deposits. It simply has been too much to handle for no particular reason, particularly now that it has to hand over ownership of the royals. Just haven't informed the customers yet as I am still settling accounts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted January 22, 2019 17 minutes ago, Captain Dee said: My biggest disappointment in all of BoBS is the fact that all you gold-coated, gold-crusted, gold-dusted Greenies haven't erected giant statues of yourselves made from pure gold, with gold pigeons leaving behind gold nugget droppings, with hot fountains of liquid gold spewing into a pond of goldfish swimming at the base. Bummer. That sounds like a challenge for a MOC! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted January 22, 2019 40 minutes ago, Maxim I said: We Eslandolans don't evaluate forts based on their cost/profit value, but more on their cost/prestige value. I don't want to be the mayor of a settlement with a meager small fort I would not dare to show up at the fancy parties... They would all talk behind my back, stating that I am a poor guy... Whoa. You mean Greenies actually have insecurities? *whisper whisper laugh whisper point fingers whisper* 16 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said: That sounds like a challenge for a MOC! Hook, line, & (gold) sinker! If you want to show the world that you are FILTHY rich you build a statue of yourself, "trickling" gold. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gedren_y Posted January 22, 2019 Dearji the Windsong wanders into the Council chambers singing, "Ge b'e uiar a sniomh a' toitr mi, na roinnean mo beannachd . . ." Hammash slams his fist on the table, and growls "The Priestess is right. We have had plenty of bounty. It is time we share it. A percentage tax on all shipping to cover the costs of the national defense isn't unreasonable." Dearji dances over to Guilder, and says softly into his ear, "Do good." Then with a smile she pats him on the rump, and saunters out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted January 22, 2019 Willem Guilder marveled at the change in his surroundings in just a few short days. The council hall had been without any significant business to discuss for months, and now there was lively debate with no clear consensus, not just among the delegations, but in the gallery as well. Guilder could not even remember a time when so many people from all across the Brick Seas crowded into the gallery to not only watch the council at work, but debate the issues among themselves -- and with the council members as well! While there was word of economic hardships throughout the islands of all nations, it seemed as if Eslandola's Colonial Council had become the center of the economic discussion. Perhaps that was appropriate. But at the same time, it wasn't pretty. Legislating is much like sausage-making: better not to see how it is made! Guilder rapped his gavel hard upon his desk. Whack! Whack! Whack! "Order! Quiet, please!" he bellowed. Guilder was not prone to such outbursts, and a hush fell over the council hall. "First, let me welcome all the interested onlookers in the gallery. I see citizens of Corrington, and some Sea Rats, and did I see an Oleonder in here earlier? I'm not sure. Regardless, welcome to all of you. I'm certain the democratic process is alien to many of you. As you have seen, debate can be messy, with many ideas thrown out for consideration. Let me assure our guests that the opinions of any one of us here do not represent the stance of our great nation until acted into law." Never to early to avert an international incident, thought Guilder. "Second, it is clear that there is no proposal here that will fully address the problem at hand that is universally accepted. It is unclear whether any of the positions taken up by members of this council can even muster a majority! So, in an effort to forge ahead, I propose a small first step, and we'll see where it gets us. In addition to my responsibilities as Admius Legistrad, I also serve as a member of the Sea of Storms delegation. In that capacity, I submit for consideration: that the financial upkeep of our fortifications remain the responsibility of the continental account, not to be divided among trade companies or other entities. Does anyone from another delegation second this motion? If so, we can move it to a vote." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gedren_y Posted January 22, 2019 "Seconded," Lady Cantoni offered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted January 22, 2019 Guilder nodded in thanks toward Lady Cantoni. "The motion has been seconded. We shall now vote on the following proposal: The financial upkeep of our fortifications shall remain the responsibility of the continental account, not to be divided among trade companies or other entities. All members of each delegation shall now announce their vote on this proposal." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gedren_y Posted January 22, 2019 "Aye." "Aye." "Aye." the Independents Seats voted in quick succession. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elostirion Posted January 22, 2019 Regarding my position: 1) OOC it's already unfair enough. I have paid for my royal properties and now I just had to give them away with even the slightest compensation (no money, nothing). I couldn't even license them as large properties (or four large properties) instead. And didn't get my original investment back either. Just gone. Which I am fine with. But now having the kind of taxation that is the worst one for me - on top of that - would feel too unfair. 2) IC: Fontonajo surely wants to protect his wealth. And while in som regards he is a philantropist and loves Eslandola, in other regards he is just a greedy selfish as**ole. :-) 3) IC & OOC: I meant what I wrote regarding the freedom of choice. For me that is the most important part of ESLandolan national identity. Taking that away would just be bad, both from Román Fontonajo's perspective as well as from mine. Also I found some of the earlier arguments really convincing (don't know if it was Maxim or Kai or so. else): State-owned properties are not the solution either. They do not fit into ESL as a free nation, where the power lies in the actions and wealth of its people and trading companies, not in state-owned properties. Freedom of choice, once again. However OOC I will definitely be okay with any results to come. Only a game after all, and then let it be unfair. :-D IC however might be a different story... Not sure how Román would react towards a 5% wealth tax. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tezclatipoca Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, Elostirion said: Regarding my position: 1) OOC it's already unfair enough. I have paid for my royal properties and now I just had to give them away with even the slightest compensation (no money, nothing). I couldn't even license them as large properties (or four large properties) instead. And didn't get my original investment back either. Just gone. Which I am fine with. But now having the kind of taxation that is the worst one for me - on top of that - would feel too unfair. 2) IC: Fontonajo surely wants to protect his wealth. And while in som regards he is a philantropist and loves Eslandola, in other regards he is just a greedy selfish as**ole. :-) 3) IC & OOC: I meant what I wrote regarding the freedom of choice. For me that is the most important part of ESLandolan national identity. Taking that away would just be bad, both from Román Fontonajo's perspective as well as from mine. OOC : I can understand how you feel. In particular with this new rule upon Royal Properties. I really don't understand why we shouldn't own them as players. The Db entries could just have been lowered, that's all. Myself have a Royal pending from some month but will licence it with those new rules, so I will adapt, but for you, not being paid a compensation is hard. Did you even managed to get your investment back with the entries ? IC : Lady Condora, Dr Ayuda and Chief Apulo are all answering to the Admius Legistrad proposition a clear and simultaneous "AYE !" Edited January 23, 2019 by Faladrin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bregir Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Faladrin said: not being paid a compensation is hard. Why not lobby for Eslandola paying for the Royals it takes over? Or have the trade company doing the same pay? All players (I hope we didn't miss anyone) owning royals have been contacted before this decision was published, so please do not get the impression that this was just decided out of nowhere. To the best of my knowledge, everyone afflicted accepted this decision. (At least the Corlanders did - didn't speak directly to the others) And there is nothing stopping those taking over the royals from paying compensation. (Or those having to give them up requiring it from them) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tezclatipoca Posted January 23, 2019 37 minutes ago, Bregir said: Why not lobby for Eslandola paying for the Royals it takes over? Or have the trade company doing the same pay? All players (I hope we didn't miss anyone) owning royals have been contacted before this decision was published, so please do not get the impression that this was just decided out of nowhere. To the best of my knowledge, everyone afflicted accepted this decision. (At least the Corlanders did - didn't speak directly to the others) And there is nothing stopping those taking over the royals from paying compensation. (Or those having to give them up requiring it from them) I am not complaining, and not very concerned, BTW.... Like I said, I have planned a Royal project (near to be ready) not having one, so I can adapt myself. I just have a little feeling that the rule could prevent any good builder with a great collection to build one Royal instead of 3 or 4 large buildings. I find it a little damaging the game, because we will see less of greater builds like Elos' ones, that's all... On another hand, I can totally understand the rule, it's made to stop builders being so rich that they'll overpass the Royal/State accounts. I am not against that idea. Finally, here, we are just debating what to do with Eslandola Finances according to those new rules. We are adapting our way to play to those rules. It's fun to see it here, trancripted in IC Role Play instead being just OOC debated in PM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kai NRG Posted January 23, 2019 Two "aye"s and a snore (which Chef Jalape insists is to be interpreted as aye) from the MCTC bench. 21 hours ago, Maxim I said: I do prefer 1% then Otherwise, Eslandola will have to tax itself for becoming too rich... Yeah, just having glanced over the accounts myself for a quick estimate, I wasn't sure if 1% would quite cut it. If it does, I'm all in favor of lower taxation. 21 hours ago, Maxim I said: ...400 a turn is a lot if they want to stay competitive with members of other factions... True, but other factions are going to have to deal with this too, Oleon for instance already has an income tax. 21 hours ago, Maxim I said: Only flaw: some people have an account in the BoC Seems like that may have been solved for us? I agree that it would be a technical difficulty and a potential loophole that we would have to address. 22 hours ago, Bregir said: I promise ALL my votes in Eslandola's colonial council will support your position ;) Thank you, thank you, your support is appreciated. 14 hours ago, Elostirion said: 3) IC & OOC: I meant what I wrote regarding the freedom of choice. For me that is the most important part of ESLandolan national identity. Taking that away would just be bad, both from Román Fontonajo's perspective as well as from mine. I hugely agree with you here, but I actually would argue that selective taxation (eg. taxation on luxury items, however that might be defined in game, or taxation only on shipping and not land properties - as apparently suggested by @gedren_y, or taxation graduated based on income, or taxation based on what port you go to - ESL or foreign (i.e. tariffs), or any other form of taxation that varies based on player activity), limits freedom of choice in proportion to the severity of the tax. Yeah, players have the "choice" whether or not to pay taxes (by avoiding the taxed activity) but that's silly. Does the government have the "choice" whether or not to protect them depending on whether or not they pay taxes? Look at taxes as the price you pay for a fort, troop, and warship infrastructure and for a community that will have your back should you be attacked by another nation or by an individual. If you want a choice, there are two other empires and the Sea Rats. Those are your choices. You don't get unrestricted choices in anything else, why should you here? Whereas, if we have a selective tax, all of the sudden luxury items (if that's the differentiator, or trade if MRCA only is taxed, or trading in ESL, if we tax shipping coming to our ports, or trade elsewhere if we tax our players going to other ports, or whatever) become more expensive relative to other (un-taxed or less-taxed) items. This skews the natural curve and biases activity in a direction that it would not have taken if not for the taxation. From the government's perceptive, it's quite possibly less effective in raising revenue than a smaller, undifferentiated tax that hits everybody equally, because it skews activity away from the taxed area(s). But because the immediate effects reach only a smaller quantity of people (in the luxury example, only people that want those items), it's usually a lot more popular. 14 hours ago, Elostirion said: 1) OOC it's already unfair enough. I have paid for my royal properties and now I just had to give them away with even the slightest compensation (no money, nothing). I couldn't even license them as large properties (or four large properties) instead. And didn't get my original investment back either. Just gone. Which I am fine with. But now having the kind of taxation that is the worst one for me - on top of that - would feel too unfair. As to that... from the council's perspective, tough luck. It's over (although I'm surprised you couldn't get compensation? Did you just give them to ESL? Did you ask the MCTC if it wanted them? How about Corrington? SR? ETWC? WTC? Between the various entities that could own royals, I'm surprised you couldn't have gotten at least a 10 DB bid! ), and although OOC I do think it's hard on you, I don't think it's quite logically fair for you to use that as an argument for why we shouldn't tax you (along with the rest of the players) the way we deem best for Eslandola. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) On 1/22/2019 at 9:24 AM, Kai NRG said: Large properties aren't super exciting to build even when they're for you or your TC... I'm curious... what are your reasons for feeling this way? The metrics? Big builds not being fun? Or something else...? "No more comments on the eco***** game." Edited January 23, 2019 by Captain Dee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted January 23, 2019 21 hours ago, Capt Wolf said: "The motion has been seconded. We shall now vote on the following proposal: The financial upkeep of our fortifications shall remain the responsibility of the continental account, not to be divided among trade companies or other entities. All members of each delegation shall now announce their vote on this proposal." 18 hours ago, gedren_y said: "Aye." "Aye." "Aye." the Independents Seats voted in quick succession. 5 hours ago, Faladrin said: Lady Condora, Dr Ayuda and Chief Apulo are all answering to the Admius Legistrad proposition a clear and simultaneous "AYE !" 1 hour ago, Kai NRG said: Two "aye"s and a snore (which Chef Jalape insists is to be interpreted as aye) from the MCTC bench. That's 9 "Ayes"s and no "Nay"s so far. What say the ETWC @Garmadon, MAESTRO @Legostone, and Sea of Storms delegations? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Dee Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Elostirion said: Regarding my position: 1) OOC it's already unfair enough. I have paid for my royal properties and now I just had to give them away with even the slightest compensation (no money, nothing). I couldn't even license them as large properties (or four large properties) instead. And didn't get my original investment back either. Just gone. Whoa... Now I'm confused. Were they not earning anything all this time? Ouch. That must really hurt. Sorry about all the posts. Is there a way to quote topics from multiple pages using the mobile editor? Edited January 23, 2019 by Captain Dee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kai NRG Posted January 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Captain Dee said: I'm curious... what are your reasons for feeling this way? The metrics? Big builds not being fun? Or something else...? I guess I really didn't think about that a whole lot, I was mostly considering the repetitiveness of the one large I've built (a plantation, so of course it was repetitive), although, I mean, I was pretty happy with that build anyways so they can be fun, but I prefer story builds if I'm going to build something big... but I could work a large into a story without too much trouble, so that's not really a good reason. Maybe it's mostly that large builds are a strain on my collection which means I often spend a good deal of time finding substitute solutions (can I add another color to the ground to get over the scarcity of my tan, for instance) which sometimes are better but sometimes are worse and are usually a drain on time. Still, creative solutions are usually enjoyable to come up with so... Perhaps I will have to retract my statement about large EGS builds not being exciting. They probably can be easily enough if you get the right idea. Still, you're not going to catch me volunteering to build 13 of them for Eslandola over the next few months. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elostirion Posted January 23, 2019 Just to make it clear: - I was asked in advance if I am fine with my royals going away: I said I don't like it but it's ok and I will accept. Easy. - I was given the choice who to give them to. - Compensation was never a topic before that. Neither did I ask for it, nor was it offered. - I earned more than I paid with all my royal properties. - I am not complaining, nor do I ask for compensation. My point is just: The richest players were already hit the hardest by the recent changes. I didn't complain, nor ask for anything. Being the one hit the hardest by national taxation again - now that would feel unfair. But enough about that. I am all fine and the Council will decide on whatever. :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted January 24, 2019 Aaron Van Der Meede stood from his seat in the Sea of Storms delegation. "While I have some reservations as to whether this proposal makes the most fiscal sense, I do believe it is best for the nation for our defensive works to be the responsibility of the nation, and not in the hands of the trade companies. Whether we ask for the trade companies to contribute in some fashion is another issue. So I vote 'Aye'." Pieter Reyngout then stood. "I share my colleague's concerns, but also vote 'Aye'." Then Willem Guilder, from his desk at the front of the hall, rose. "As a member of the Sea of Storms delegation, I will also vote 'Aye'. And as this gives us 12 'Ayes' and assures a majority, the measure passes." Guilder eyed the back of the council hall, then turned to the council scribe. "Please record 50 DB fines for members of the ETWC delegation for sleeping during deliberations." WHACK! went his gavel. "And as I have no idea where Monezterrell and the members of the MAESTRO delegation have wandered off to, 50 DB fines shall also be levied on each of them." Another WHACK! "And if Revon de Crocodil and the Sea of Thieves delegation ever shows up, we can discuss fines for them as well at that time." Guilder sat down, recomposed himself, then continued to speak. "Now that we have determined that the fort upkeep is the responsibility of the continental account, are there any proposals for how we'll actually pay for this? Any delegation may submit a proposal, and if seconded by another delegation, we can proceed to a vote." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Garmadon Posted January 24, 2019 39 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said: Guilder eyed the back of the council hall, then turned to the council scribe. "Please record 50 DB fines for members of the ETWC delegation for sleeping during deliberations." WHACK! went his gavel. "And as I have no idea where Monezterrell and the members of the MAESTRO delegation have wandered off to, 50 DB fines shall also be levied on each of them." Another WHACK! "And if Revon de Crocodil and the Sea of Thieves delegation ever shows up, we can discuss fines for them as well at that time." Agent Guelds jumped up and smacked the Lieutenant with a whack that sounded as loud as Guilder's gavel (he had just been smacked awake by Willoughby himself a second before). "Asleep on the job!" he exclaimed indignantly; "do you know you just got us all fined 50 DBs! 50 DBS!!" The Lieutenant looked around rather sheepishly and fumbled for his purse while the Agent resumed his seat in a fume and Willoughby grinned. He had made sure to collect his share of the fine out of the other's pockets before waking them up. OOC: I love that rule - we should really use it more often Is that 50 DBs for each delegate, or 50 for the ETWC delegation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Wolf Posted January 25, 2019 12 hours ago, Garmadon said: OOC: I love that rule - we should really use it more often Is that 50 DBs for each delegate, or 50 for the ETWC delegation? I'm glad it was taken in the spirit it was intended! And I'm thinking, at least while we're still trying to pay for these forts, it should be each delegate. Maybe that'll solve the funding crisis! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
