Eslandola Colonial Council, Second Cycle, 618, IN SESSION

[Maxim I]

1 hour ago, Bregir said:

Argh, you hit me right in the third wall there...

Or she is talking about pimps :p

[Capt Wolf]

S

3 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

To be clear, Esterhazy remarked, what I am proposing is an asset tax on Eslandian citizens.  2% of player and TC cash assets every [month] would raise well over 3000 DBs, encourage investment, and discourage DBs lying around in bank accounts.  It ought not affect trade in Eslandian ports at all.

"Thank you for clarifying your proposal, Representative de Troir," replied Guilder. "So, in essence, this has elements of Commodore Grei's proposal in that citizens would fund this shortfall directly, albeit not necessarily voluntarily. And at the same time, this would not preclude us from pursuing Lady Condora's proposal for a construction drive to increase income into the state coffers. And all funds for fort upkeep would flow from the continental account, as they have been. Do I have that correct?"

[Tezclatipoca]

1 hour ago, Capt Wolf said:

S

"Thank you for clarifying your proposal, Representative de Troir," replied Guilder. "So, in essence, this has elements of Commodore Grei's proposal in that citizens would fund this shortfall directly, albeit not necessarily voluntarily. And at the same time, this would not preclude us from pursuing Lady Condora's proposal for a construction drive to increase income into the state coffers. And all funds for fort upkeep would flow from the continental account, as they have been. Do I have that correct?"

"Indeed, Pursued Lady Condora. My Proposal can be considered as a complement to refill the coffers and to help prevent raising too much tax upon the citizens."

"Of course a Great Works Project isn't to be impose to those who would not want to help. But, for instance, it is sure the MAESTRO trade Company, by the hand of Lord Felipe de la Manzana, has an occuring project in Elisabethtown near to be reveal that could fit for a Royal Property. I am sure the income it could generate could help. Such moves from our most powerfull citizens could make enter some money without taxing the Commercial efforts or the smaller builds. In a sense, My idea is to make participate the richers rather than taxing everyone." (OOC : I was building a fish production site for Elisabethtown from several month now and wanted to license it as a Royal Artisan, since I cannot license it for myself by those new rules, I would like to know if it's possible to share the income between the Crown and MAESTRO ?)

[Kai NRG]

3 hours ago, Bregir said:

Argh, you hit me right in the third wall there...

Yeah, it's hard to make an OOC argument IC. 

To return to the discussion...

Esterhazy: It would certainly be possible to implement a temporary taxation measure as we work toward making the government economical self-sufficient.  As I have hinted at, however, an economically self-sufficient government may be too autonomous for our good.

OOC: I don't care too much either way, politically I think governments should (and certainly always do) earn some money from taxation and use that to support their protective activities (I also have certain ideas on what should and should not be taxed and how, of course).  Governments are notoriously bad at running enterprises, but that doesn't apply in this game so having a national trade fleet, for instance, could be quite productive.  So could a couple royals.  The only basis as far as I can see for arguing against public (i.e. faction) property is that builders' activity will be (briefly) siphoned toward council imposed suggestions and even that is rather flimsy because, of course, it could act as inspiration and is not necessarily detracting from whatever would otherwise be built; plus, many of the builders are on the council and would naturally pick desirable things to build (and those that aren't would be welcome to make suggestions which will surely be taken into account).

On the other hand in the long run we might actually keep ourselves more solvent by accruing a portion of players' wealth each turn rather than depending on potentially volatile EGS gains.  A fleet would require maintenance (especially if some sink/are captured) and although land based property is less vulnerable it might not be too easy to make up the required sum.  On the other hand I don't think it would be hard to tax enough, and taxed income if based on percentage would be likely to continue to grow.

Sorry, I just didn't have time to make that all IC. 

[gedren_y]

Lady Cantoni stretched herself upright and addressed her fellows, "If it is the national coffer that will be covering the fortresses maintenance, then a limited 2% tax across all trade to raise capital seems reasonable."

Alexander nodded his assent. Hammish glanced sideways, and grumbled, "Oh, aye. The national coffer is better for distribution. I'll see to it the Treasury receives the Crahaish's donation."

"On the matter of business investment," Valentia continued, "A dedicated push for specific projects isn't needed. Just a willingness to use the public coffer to fund pending ventures that can provide consistent returns." (OOC: All players that are willing would allow their upcoming builds to be licensed by Eslandola. I have some builds for story that I am working on that I have no need to license myself.)

[Maxim I]

Word reached Sir Yohannes Ethiximus of the discussions and proposals going on at the Colonial Council. Since he skipped this cycle, he was not following politics that close.

But as the one in charge atm for MAESTRO's and Lord Damaximus business in Trador (and New Terra in general), he was thinking what Lord Damaximus would like. A tax, fair for everyone? Or a monthly payment, a vast amount?

Maybe the latter would have the vote of Lord Damaximus. A returning donation every month of let's say 200 db's. Paid by every person and entity in Eslandola. That would cover the costs... And his argument would be that it is up to Eslandolan citizens to earn more than 200 db's a month... He would even say that this would be the amount a small tradevessel makes every month (month = MRCA turn)... That's not that much right? By focussing on the right stuff, Eslandolans still will be able to get filthy rich.

The longer he thought about it, the better that sounded. After a while, Sir Yohannes Ethiximus, mayor of Trador, wrote done the proposal and sent it to the Colonial Council. Who knows a member would read it and discuss it with the Council??

Edited January 18, 2019 by Maxim I

[Bregir]

Leave it up to one of the richest players to propose a flat tax rather than a percentage of wealth!

[Bart]

7 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Leave it up to one of the richest players to propose a flat tax rather than a percentage of wealth!

a flat tax of double my income o.O I think If I'd rob MAESTRO as to double the contents of my treasure chest they wouldn't even find it in their balance .

[Kai NRG]

26 minutes ago, Bart said:

a flat tax of double my income o.O I think If I'd rob MAESTRO as to double the contents of my treasure chest they wouldn't even find it in their balance .

Yes... 200 DBs would be a rather large tax even for some Eslandians.   We don't want to chase away new members! 

[Elostirion]

 

Dear Eslandola,

word has reached my ears, even here in Terraversa, about the most concerning recent financial reports. Be assured, my
dear friends of the Colonial Council, that you do not stand alone in this struggle. The Fontonajo family is with you in these
difficult times.

 I am certain you all realise any taxation of wealth is not an option? After all, the freedom of choice is what has made our
nation great, and most certainly you will not dispossess your citizens of this freedom! I have always been in favour of 
further taxation - port taxes, taxation of new investments (properties), even taxes for living in the most luxourious towns,
taxations for larger fleets, for titles, for offices - just about for everything that leaves us with a choice to decide against it,
and thus against the taxes. While taxes on regular income might be a grey area, taxing our possessions leaves us with
no choice to take another path - which is essentially the demise of freedom and thus the doom of our Empire.

To express my support with more than just words I hereby transfer some of my most valuable possessions. While I give
the Cotton Island near Salida Este to the Merchants Colonial Trading Company, which should be netting the MCTC around
150 Dubloons in monthly revenue, the Colonial Council Hall in Montario is hereby transferred to our nation. I entrust you,
my friends in the Colonial Council, to use the money wisely.

Also as of today, all port taxes acquired by Nova Terreli shall go directly to the treasury of our great Colonial Eslandolan
Empire.

My utmost respect to the work all of you are dedicating to our nations in those hard times. My finest regards

 Román Esteban Fontonajo, Colonial Grand Ambassador

Edited January 20, 2019 by Elostirion

[Capt Wolf]

Guilder had the letters read into the council record: one from Sir Yohannes Ethiximus on behalf of MAESTRO's Lord Damaximus, and the other from Grand Ambassador Román Esteban Fontonajo.

"We have now heard from the delegations for the independent traders, the Prio Seas, the Sea of Storms, and the MCTC. We have received letters representing MAESTRO and this council's former Admius Legistrad. We have yet to hear from Revon de Crocodil (@Umbra-Manis) or any of his companions from the Sea of Thieves delegation, and I am concerned that the entire delegation has not been seen for some time. We have also yet to hear from the East Trade Wind Company. Does Agent Gilles Guelds (@Garmadon) or any of the members of the ETWC delegation wish to weigh in on the topic before the council?"

[Garmadon]

"Right!" exclaimed Agent Guelds, pausing his perusal of his mother's birthday letter on hearing his name and elbowing his still sleeping companions.  "What was the subject again?  Oh, paying for forts, I see.  Well that's obvious.  If we don't pay for them by the proceeds of raids on Oleander settlements - well, I have no opinion whatsoever of you all's political sense whatsoever-soever!"  

"My dear Guelds!" exclaimed Lieutenant Hillsboroughbergmachier, "You are absolutely scintillating this morning.  That's the most brilliant suggestion I've heard in all my days on the council!"

"Most of which were passed sleeping," put in Willoughby.  

But all three were very much of one mind on the subject, except that Willoughby would rather raid Corry settlements, but anyways...

[Bart]

I'm glad I'm not some fancy Eslandonian, but a Sea Rat, we keep to normal English when talking to each other.

ooc: I really can't understand which stance any of you is taking in this discussion, or what the used arguments are. It is so intertwinned with IC backgrounds and fancy words that as a non-native-English speaker it is majorly confusing. But if you all like it that way go ahead.

 

[Bregir]

 @Bart The rundown: Garmadon's characters want to raid their way to the funds for paying maintenance.  The richest Eslandian players, Maxim and Elos (the 1 %, one might dare to call them) are against taxing wealth (SURPRISE! ), and the rest are discussing whether they should tax (and what) or start a building initiative to generate income for the faction.

[Kai NRG]

4 hours ago, Garmadon said:

"Right!" exclaimed Agent Guelds, pausing his perusal of his mother's birthday letter on hearing his name and elbowing his still sleeping companions.  "What was the subject again?  Oh, paying for forts, I see.  Well that's obvious.  If we don't pay for them by the proceeds of raids on Oleander settlements - well, I have no opinion whatsoever of you all's political sense whatsoever-soever!"

Captain Argentum sprang to his feet, whistling and stomping and clapping.

1 hour ago, Bregir said:

 @Bart The rundown: Garmadon's characters want to raid their way to the funds for paying maintenance.  The richest Eslandian players, Maxim and Elos (the 1 %, one might dare to call them) are against taxing wealth (SURPRISE! ), and the rest are discussing whether they should tax (and what) or start a building initiative to generate income for the faction.

Nice to have an outside perspective. 

2 hours ago, Bart said:

ooc: I really can't understand which stance any of you is taking in this discussion, or what the used arguments are. It is so intertwinned with IC backgrounds and fancy words that as a non-native-English speaker it is majorly confusing. But if you all like it that way go ahead.

If you're gonna have private faction discussions in public, it's important to make them as complicated as possible. 

[Maxim I]

Mayor's ofice, Trador:

Word reached Sir Yohannes Ethiximus about his proposal not being suited for young Eslandolans. It is true that a fresh new adventurer doesn't have the income to pay the taxes. And what about Eslandolans that are not so active at the moment?

Sir Yohannes Ethiximus looked once again at his copy of the King's Port Advertiser. 7 Eslandolans and 2 entities made it into the papers last turn. One only sent a small vessel, another one lost a vessel. But all others made at least 500 db's last turn. Not counting land based income! 200 db's may seem a lot, but it gives everyone the freedom to increase their wealth as they want. Instead of building for Eslandola, they can build and expand their own income! Just like many other prominent Eslandolans, Sir Yohannes Ethiximus (and he was sure Lord Maximilian Damaximus was on the same page on this one), is against faction owned properties and trade ships. The stronger the TC's, the better for Eslandola (or at least his own purse).

But for new players, 200 db's a turn would be killing their future. So why not giving them a year "free of taxation" welcome bonus? And after the first year, they got a "only 100 db's tax reduction!" year. After 2 years they should be able to pay the 200 db tax.

And ofcourse, based on a months revenues, one can ask a pardon to skip that month. If one only earns 100 db's, paying 200 db's would be harsh.

For last month, Eslandola would have earned 1400 db's (7 active Eslandolans that made more than 400 db's by trade). MAESTRO is interested in taking over the forts of Trador and Elysabethtown, which cuts expenses for Eslandola by 300 db's a turn.

Checking the results of the KPA a last time, he noticed how out of the 9 entities being mentioned, 4 of them are MAESTRO and its members. Even with the Gotheborg not sailing out last turn, the results were very good. Looking at the known map, he checked the locations of the MAESTRO warehouses. Madin, Drolic, Fuji, Jameston, Breshaun, ... . The start of a world wide empire!

But now back to the tax discussio...

[Bregir]

Pardon me for a short OOC commentary, but honestly, I find this a highly interesting social experiment. Depending on one's position, it is either amusing or alarming! /

It surprises me that even in a game with fictional money, some of the richest players are (IC/OOC?) so concerned with a tax, and set on suggesting alternatives to schemes that tax all proportionally. (And we are not even talking a progressive tax!) I understand the desire to protect what one has built over a long period, of course, but what about the common good and fairness?

Maxim's scheme will heavily favour the richest - it should be clear to all that the richer you are, the less of a share an absolute value will be of your total income. If everyone pays 200 dbs/turn, there is clearly a big difference between making 300 dbs a month, or 3000. That he suggests taking out the poorest players seems a very thin guise for favouring the richest. Of course, it can be argued that such a flat rate will encourage people to build up a very large income to diminish the share the taxes make, but that is like saying to a homeless person that he should simply get a job at wall-street.

Elos' position may be somewhat less biased, desiring taxes on activities rather than wealth, although it still favours more passive players of "the old guard" over more active new players with less wealth. It will dis-incentivise investments and incentivise passivity, which I doubt is desirable. And it will favour those who have already made the investments to bring them to their current level of wealth. Of course, there is a logic to only taxing active actions, to make it a choice, but why the resistance to tax income, then, rather than investment?

Also, publicly suggesting attacks on foreign powers? That seems like it may end up with some repercussions. (Or are we not to consider the minutes of these meetings public? I do not think that was ever defined)

 

Last, please know that I mean not to reproach anyone for their positions, or manipulate the outcome - I simply find it interesting that some of the dynamics of the real world make its way into a fictional economy.

I can't help but wonder if not the outcome of this may end up being the catalyst for a new communist movement in Eslandola? At least I feel some Marxist sentiments stirring within me!

All in all, I really enjoy following these discussions! Keep it up!

[Maxim I]

My reasoning is the following:

If we need to make sure Eslandola gains let's say 1500 db's a month in property income, the following needs to be built:

• 10 royal properties
• 100 Large properties

Given that we are with 8 active members right now (trade companies can not build something in real life), that would mean that every member has to build around 13 large properties. Not everyone is able to produce 3 large properties each turn, so  this will take more than 12 turns to achieve. Given the current deficit of Eslandola, we would lose half the current funds by then.

Another option is building two class 8 trade vessels for the nation of Eslandola. But honestly, having built one already (Gotheborg), I prefer to keep it for myself... Not for the income, but more for the prestige and the play-factor in this game. Not forgetting that vessels come with an upkeep, and given the size of the fleet of Eslandola, this will be a lot.

In the end, I prefer the activation of players. A class 4 trader makes already 300 db's a turn. So if everyone makes (or buy from another player) a class 4 trader, licences it and makes it sail, the taxes are already paid back. The 13 large properties they would have made for Eslandola can be licenced in their name, granting an extra 180 db's a turn for those players. After all, this game is mostly focused on building (pirate) vessels. And the more vessels, the more interesting for actual pirate vessels.

The Oleon system, (tax on income) is good as well and fair for everyone, but we are Eslandola and the Oleon system would be too much of a forced tax. The more the players earn, the richer the nation (the horror!). My proposal is more of a contribution to Eslandola, giving the Council members power to discuss the numbers every now and then (so we don't make Eslandola too rich). As it will be paid by active members, members being inactive won't feel it.

A tax on wealth is a no go for me. It is not because my attention the past years was solely on BoBS and not on other stuff as well (like GoH), I should be punished more now by seeing 2% of my wealth gone every turn. For me that would be 400 db's a turn, for Elos even 1000 db's a turn. And again, I am against fixed taxes that generate an unlimited income for the nation 

Ofcourse, Gedren for example would be safe for this contribution for at least 7 turns, since he transferred already 1500 db's to Eslandolan's treasure chest.

[Bregir]

5 minutes ago, Maxim I said:

I should be punished more now by seeing 2% of my wealth gone every turn

Last turn, without an MRCA, your property income was 920 dbs, which is slightly more than 4 % of your wealth (22354 dbs). If we correct income for a royal decreasing its profits with 400, we get 2,3 %. So even without looking at trade profits, your total wealth would still increase each month, should you go entirely passive.

Just saying... ;)

[Maxim I]

Just now, Bregir said:

Last turn, without an MRCA, your property income was 920 dbs, which is slightly more than 4 % of your wealth (22354 dbs). If we correct income for a royal decreasing its profits with 400, we get 2,3 %. So even without looking at trade profits, your total wealth would still increase each month, should you go entirely passive.

Just saying... ;)

Not entirely true as my royal property is being transferred to MAESTRO (since only trade companies, settlements and factions will be able to own those). So that means I'll have an income of 320 a month

[Ross Fisher]

2 hours ago, Bregir said:

Of course, it can be argued that such a flat rate will encourage people to build up a very large income

That is a very Eslandolan solution.

[gedren_y]

2 hours ago, Maxim I said:

Ofcourse, Gedren for example would be safe for this contribution for at least 7 turns, since he transferred already 1500 db's to Eslandolan's treasure chest.

(OOC: That was a charitable contribution. Eslandola currently does not have a provision of tax exemption, or reduction, for such donations. In any event, the Crahaish neh Triuri wouldn't make such a claim.)

[Kai NRG]

Here's hopefully a clearer, OOC statement of my opinions/suggestions on the subject:

I agree with Maxim about the difficulty of building enough to make Eslandola forts self-sustaining.  Maybe we should just poll members as to who is actually willing to contribute with a class 8 or a couple large properties?  I don't think very many of us have the time to do that even for us right now, and I doubt we want to do that for the faction.  And besides, we can always start off with a tax and slowly build towards self-sufficiency.  Unlike IRL, here repealing the tax isn't likely to be difficult! 

I also think building Eslandola's income is an unrealistic proposition in terms of real-world correspondence.  If the government is doing its job of defending the people, it shouldn't have to on the side build up trade fleets or other enterprises in order to fund defense.  Besides, government-run enterprises are never as productive as those privately owned.  In this game, that translates into: builders will (likely) have more fun building what they want than being restricted to the government needs.  Also, it's not a permanent solution.  What happens when we need more warships, troops, or forts?  When our trade fleet sinks or gets attacked?  We build more trade ships or large properties?  Large properties aren't super exciting to build even when they're for you or your TC and big ships are always heavy time investments (which is the real scarce currency of the game!).  But I doubt we'll ever need more than 2% of player income.

I don't like the idea of a tax that is numerically flat because it doesn't reflect the amount of good that each member is getting out of the defense.  If I only have 5000 DBs worth of assets, I don't benefit nearly as much from Eslandola's system of defense as someone with 20,000 in their bank, twice as much invested in properties, and a couple trade fleets roaming the seas.  So I shouldn't have to pay as much.  A percentage is much more proportional.  If Maxim thinks loosing more than 200 DBs a turn is too much, maybe he should just lobby for a 1 or 1.5% tax instead of 2%.  It's a little much to argue that since for him 200 DBs can easily be spared, why not just cap it at that for everybody and make exceptions for people who can't spare that.  Are we making exceptions when it comes to using forts to protect people who can't spare money for taxes?  Besides, exceptions are complicated to keep track of.

Now because it would be too complicated to calculate assets for taxation, I suggest merely taxing bank balances.  This encourages people to earn more than the taxed percentage a turn (which I'm pretty sure most active players do, Bregir ran the numbers for Maxim already).  It encourages people not to leave huge sums lying in their bank account (encouraging donations, encouraging paying more for prestige rather than just a higher income next turn, etc.) which is a direction we seem to be trying to take the game in general (yes, trying to get Bregir on my side here  ).

If Eslandola gets its DBs directly from the players, the players will be more likely to be interested in how the faction is spending the money.  Are the forts/warships/troops really worth their cost?  Are they being built in strategic locations?  Are they actually helping to defend Eslandian players' assets?  If the Eslandola faction bank account were self-sufficient, we wouldn't care too much how they spent the money.  But I prefer greater accountability.

 

Also, something to think about... since black flag players don't have multiple bank accounts, with a tax we can cash in on the big bucks Captain Nordau is making raiding Oleon. 

3 hours ago, Bregir said:

Also, publicly suggesting attacks on foreign powers? That seems like it may end up with some repercussions. (Or are we not to consider the minutes of these meetings public? I do not think that was ever defined)

I think they are to be considered public in the sense than anyone can walk into the building, but detailed reports of the discussion aren't likely to reach very far or very fast across the Brick Seas.  No doubt some day King Philippe will hear a rumor to the effect that a certain Major Mountownicemackier agreed with the suggestion of some police officer of the name of Gulder (a relation of the famed Willem Guilder, the Admius Legistrad of Eslandola, perhaps?) that Oleon settlements should be taken over and used as burying places for Eslandola's excess wealth, but he'll probably dismiss that as the drunken tale it is. 

Also, it's been a while since I read the constitution but I'm pretty sure that ultimately most of the decisions of the Colonial Council need to be ratified by the Continental Council and they certainly can't declare war or send out letters of Marque on their own.

[Bregir]

55 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

yes, trying to get Bregir on my side here

I promise ALL my votes in Eslandola's colonial council will support your position ;)

56 minutes ago, Kai NRG said:

I think they are to be considered public in the sense than anyone can walk into the building

So public as in not secret, but not published. That makes sense to me - thanks for the clarification. Then maybe this time, COR will not declare total war with that as casus belli! ;)

[Maxim I]

Right now, Eslandolan players and companies are sitting on a cash mount of 220k. 2% gives 4400 db's.

I do prefer 1% then  Otherwise, Eslandola will have to tax itself for becoming too rich...

Not only that, but for those having 20k in their account, 400 a turn is a lot if they want to stay competitive with members of other factions. Reducing to 1% makes it 200 (the amount I proposed)

I agree that your system (but then only 1%) is easier to maintain.

Only flaw: some people have an account in the BoC