[SR - FB1 Jan] The Trial of Sinbad part 5 (the conclusion)

[Lord Buckethead]

Just now, kaiju said:

You possibly want to start drawing more of a distinction between the players and their sigfigs; that question just sounds wrong due to the lack of such distinction.

Somehow i didn't notice that, while I'm sure you know what i meant it does sound very wrong. Apologies, it has been changed.

[Darnok]

1 minute ago, Kwatchi said:

Asking us for some blanket peace treaty is liking asking sheep to count themselves; it is not a happening any time soon.

This must be the single best description of the Sea Rats character I have read so far. I somehow feel like I have chosen the wrong faction.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Drunknok

[Bregir]

2 minutes ago, kaiju said:

The problem there is that there's barely enough active Sea Rat players to organise the MRCA, never mind any kind of actual court if that's what you're suggesting.

I think what Mike is suggesting is that the court depicted in MKJoshA's builds could have been a Sea Rat court. Then there would have been no conflict in terms of RP ground rules. Corrington would not have been misrepresented, which is the point of irritation.

Just now, Kwatchi said:

@BregirSea Rats cannot give a declaration of a cease fire because we have no central government who can make said declaration.  Not sure how many times I have to repeat this.  The faction also can't declare i) a war, ii) a tax, iii) a national holiday, iv) a megablok'ing declaration.

We have offered you the chance to sign a cease fire per settlement. If that is also unreasonable, I don't know what we can do, but we are willing to discuss it.

Just now, Kwatchi said:

I made nice and had Charlatan Bay declare neutrality in this little dust-up. 

You did - and then you reacted to Mesabi's attack with what seemed mostly like a threat. I don't OOC mind this, but the last thing we heard from Charlatan bay wasn't peaceful. Does not seem like the neutrality still stands, but we might be mistaken. (And would be happy to be positively surprised. )

Just now, Kwatchi said:

However, JUST THIS ONCE, we will convene a court and try Captain Sinbad in Charlatan Bay (again... neutral site) as per Sea Rat laws.

We are not asking you to do this. If you want to do it, go ahead, but don't do it on our part. Personally, I would rather you didn't.

Just now, Kwatchi said:

and declare war on us..

We will not declare war on you, unless you attack us. We have offered a cease fire - an honest offer, regardless of what you think. Only one settlement has replied. I had hoped for more, or course, but we will have to work with what we get. IC.

In fact, we have offered to play the game on your premises, not treating you like a single entity, but as separate individuals, as well as we can within the game rules.

Just now, Kwatchi said:

Putting aside the fact you guys broke that neutrality at the very first opportunity

We are not contesting this. And we are reacting to it IC. And you can ask Mesabi if it has been discussed OOC too - boss Bregir was not happy. Mesabi made a mistake - can happen to anyone. He also apologised OOC and IC to you, I believe. And I consider the issue OOC over.

[gedren_y]

You all know what could settle this, Sinbad is dreaming.

@Mesabi tried to play around in Eslandola politics, but didn't quite understand how it works. I made a point to remind him that if you want to play off of someone's story, you should contact them first to work out how things should be handled. The same should go for depicting characters who are operating in the official governmental capacity of another nation, you need to work something out with the faction leaders.

If you intentionally target a faction's ships on your MRCA form, then if your ship loses an encounter the ship your characters aboard that ship, if known, get labeled as pirates by that faction. Usually we let the player write a story about characters getting away. In the old MRCA one of my ships went on a predator run and was captured by one of @MKJoshA's ships. I contacted him for permission to write a ransom story. It worked out with no one getting upset.

Mesabi has already owned up to his mistake in targeting Sea Rats in general, and is doing cooperative story to resolve the issue, though there is some IC antagonism.

[Mike S]

17 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

What? BoBS is no longer a place to be reasonable! But I will endeavour to be anyway. 

@BregirSea Rats cannot give a declaration of a cease fire because we have no central government who can make said declaration.  Not sure how many times I have to repeat this.  The faction also can't declare i) a war, ii) a tax, iii) a national holiday, iv) a megablok'ing declaration.

IC, WE ARE A GROUP OF INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS!

Asking us for some blanket peace treaty is liking asking sheep to count themselves; it is not a happening any time soon.

IC, Charlatan Bay should and does not care what Sinbad does.  He is not their problem until he steals our rum.

 

Now, because I (did) get along with some of the COR players, I made nice and had Charlatan Bay declare neutrality in this little dust-up.  Putting aside the fact you guys broke that neutrality at the very first opportunity, which makes signing a peace treaty with you pretty dubious btw (hey, didn't you guys doublecross ESL on Isla de Victoria too?), Charlatan Bay is willing to be the "bigger man" and make the following offer.

• I will forgo the joy duty of hanging trying the villainous Count Mesabi and his WTC brownshirts and leave to him Corry justice. (Enjoy the slap on the wrist and crumpets @Mesabi)
• However, JUST THIS ONCE, we will convene a court and try Captain Sinbad in Charlatan Bay (again... neutral site) as per Sea Rat laws.
• I promise it won't be a "Are you a pirate?" "Of course" "Great.  Let's party" trial.  There will be a judge and gavels and everything.
• We'll have an NPC red shirt there to represent you.  That is as far as your involvement gets to be 'cuz... some reason about internal affairs I guess.
• All verdicts are binding and final.  All hangings are enjoyed by me both IC and OOC.  Insane cackling will ensue.
• We'll all pretend that the awesome five part Trial of Sinbad never happened, just like Bobby Ewing didn't really die.
• After this we go our separate ways and find new people to play with.

Now either hold out your pinkie so we can shake on this and so end this ludicrous situation, or grow plums and declare war on us... because THE SEA RATS ARE INCAPABLING OF DECLARE A FACTION WAR ON YOU ANYONE NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU ACCUSE US OF DOING IT!!!!

 

 

Herein lies the problem. Game wise we have to attack you all in order to attack  MKJosh. There is no option to attack MKJosh. If there was we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. You can only role play as the game rules allow. The vibe I’ve been getting from Sea Rats is that you can attack us since you are pirates but we can’t attack you back because you have no part with what one of your members did and if we attack we will most likely attack innocents.

[MKJoshA]

41 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

What? BoBS is no longer a place to be reasonable! But I will endeavour to be anyway. 

@BregirSea Rats cannot give a declaration of a cease fire because we have no central government who can make said declaration.  Not sure how many times I have to repeat this.  The faction also can't declare i) a war, ii) a tax, iii) a national holiday, iv) a megablok'ing declaration.

IC, WE ARE A GROUP OF INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS!

Asking us for some blanket peace treaty is liking asking sheep to count themselves; it is not a happening any time soon.

IC, Charlatan Bay should and does not care what Sinbad does.  He is not their problem until he steals our rum.

 

Now, because I (did) get along with some of the COR players, I made nice and had Charlatan Bay declare neutrality in this little dust-up.  Putting aside the fact you guys broke that neutrality at the very first opportunity, which makes signing a peace treaty with you pretty dubious btw (hey, didn't you guys doublecross ESL on Isla de Victoria too?), Charlatan Bay is willing to be the "bigger man" and make the following offer.

• I will forgo the joy duty of hanging trying the villainous Count Mesabi and his WTC brownshirts and leave to him Corry justice. (Enjoy the slap on the wrist and crumpets @Mesabi)
• However, JUST THIS ONCE, we will convene a court and try Captain Sinbad in Charlatan Bay (again... neutral site) as per Sea Rat laws.
• I promise it won't be a "Are you a pirate?" "Of course" "Great.  Let's party" trial.  There will be a judge and gavels and everything.
• We'll have an NPC red shirt there to represent you.  That is as far as your involvement gets to be 'cuz... some reason about internal affairs I guess.
• All verdicts are binding and final.  All hangings are enjoyed by me both IC and OOC.  Insane cackling will ensue.
• We'll all pretend that the awesome five part Trial of Sinbad never happened, just like Bobby Ewing didn't really die.
• After this we go our separate ways and find new people to play with.

Now either hold out your pinkie so we can shake on this and so end this ludicrous situation, or grow plums and declare war on us... because THE SEA RATS ARE INCAPABLING OF DECLARE A FACTION WAR ON YOU ANYONE NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU ACCUSE US OF DOING IT!!!!

 

 

I agree. Except for the part I crossed out

30 minutes ago, Drunknok said:

This must be the single best description of the Sea Rats character I have read so far. I somehow feel like I have chosen the wrong faction.

You can still join the Dark Side!

25 minutes ago, Bregir said:

...there would have been no conflict in terms of RP ground rules. Corrington would not have been misrepresented, which is the point of irritation.

Alright, so if I say it was an ESL court everyone's happy? Done.

25 minutes ago, Bregir said:

We have offered you the chance to sign a cease fire per settlement. If that is also unreasonable, I don't know what we can do, but we are willing to discuss it.

It's not unreasonable. In fact it's very pleasant of you. As Kwatchi has put so well, it's that it is impossible. We aren't a legally organized body of people, we are a loosely associated confederate.

9 minutes ago, Mike S said:

Herein lies the problem. Game wise we have to attack you all in order to attack  MKJosh. There is no option to attack MKJosh. If there was we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. You can only role play as the game rules allow. The vibe I’ve been getting from Sea Rats is that you can attack us since you are pirates but we can’t attack you back because you have no part with what one of your members did and if we attack we will most likely attack innocents.

You can certainly attack us. We just don't have to like it. And if whining about it gets everyone to stop attacking us, haven't we won?

[Mike S]

Just now, MKJoshA said:

 

You can certainly attack us. We just don't have to like it. And if whining about it gets everyone to stop attacking us, haven't we won?

We didn’t want to ruin other Sea Rats game because of your actions. We have become frustrated because we have been trying to accommodate those of you who did not attack us. If your whining is just a ploy to get us not to attack you, then I consider it rude behavior.

[Capt Wolf]

As I see it, there are two issues here that are getting conflated at times (not to mention IC and OOC reactions): The inability to target only some or certain ships of a faction, and roleplaying events that dictate the actions of others. I have brought up a suggestion in the leadership forum to address the former in the MRCA mechanics. The latter is going to require some cooperation and understanding by various players.

@MKJoshA, the thing that is frustrating the COR players OOC here is that your trial dictates their actions. They can't create builds and stories that show you doing things you wouldn't do, and they're asking the same consideration from you. To show a COR trial, if it is to represent something that actually happened, it requires input or prior consent in some form from COR. Does this make sense? Is there a way we can all agree that this trial is a story Sinbad tells (and he is free to claim it is true, whether or not that is correct ), while COR says no such trial occurred, and that both parties agree to let it go from there?

[Darnok]

So just to sum things up, there are - among other things - the following IC options to clean up this issue:

• Sinbad dreaming all of this
• Sinbad telling stories about how he "heroically" pranked the Corrington courts
• somebody else telling the story as provided in the bullet point above (think "urban myth")

I fail to see the big issue here. As said above: are we not here to have fun?

[MKJoshA]

1 hour ago, Capt Wolf said:

 

@MKJoshA, the thing that is frustrating the COR players OOC here is that your trial dictates their actions. They can't create builds and stories that show you doing things you wouldn't do, and they're asking the same consideration from you. To show a COR trial, if it is to represent something that actually happened, it requires input or prior consent in some form from COR. Does this make sense? Is there a way we can all agree that this trial is a story Sinbad tells (and he is free to claim it is true, whether or not that is correct ), while COR says no such trial occurred, and that both parties agree to let it go from there?

I didn't use any specific Corrington players in any of my story. You are more than welcome to display random Sea Rats in your builds. I know you all feel like I've dishonored your nation through my depiction, but I've purposely written a story that can be explained away as just a few less morally astute Corrington citizens. 

[Capt Wolf]

Just now, MKJoshA said:

I didn't use any specific Corrington players in any of my story.

You didn't use any pre-existing COR characters, but they are very specifically COR characters, and you portrayed the functioning of Corrie society, which should be controlled by COR players, whether you created the characters or not. If you wanted to show a random COR citizen doing something un-Corrie-like, that's one thing, but when you use ones that represent the government of that faction in some fashion, or the functioning of that faction's society, it's another matter. Yes, it's a fine line that you didn't think you crossed, but they think you did. I think all the players in this game are open to helping others tell their stories, even if it means a prisoner escapes or some such. Just set things up behind the scenes in a cooperative manner before building/posting and it should all work.

 

[Kwatchi]

6 hours ago, Mike S said:

Herein lies the problem. Game wise we have to attack you all in order to attack  MKJosh. There is no option to attack MKJosh. If there was we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. 

Why did Corrington not simply raid his base of operations then: Rassilon?  Operation to Stamp out the nest of pirates and all that.  I believe you can choose that option in the MRCA, and the Army location form doesn’t require a faction wide toggle.  There is solution #3 for you.

As for the whole trial thing, I’ve killed a few ESL anonymous npcs in MOCs in era 1 and was applauded for great stories.  I’m not sure why players have become so thin skinned about it in the last month.  But rest assured I will not reference Corrington ever in the future and will go back tomorrow and clean up all references.

Finally, I won’t lie.  This is getting frustrating for me simply because I keep coming up with creative solutions only for Bregir to politely say ‘no, my way is the only way’, which solves nothing and drags things out further.

[Bregir]

Two friendly points to try to put down any confusion:

• MKJoshA's trial
  Several Corlander players have expressed concern with how this series of builds have (mis-)represented Corrington (from the first build too, I believe), and we have done our best to explain why. We have also explained that we cannot accept this as Corlander lore. That means that IC, if someone brings it up, the answer will most likely be that there are no records of such a trial, and that we have never heard of it. No further "action" is required. For us, it is a drunken tale or a piece of misplaced propaganda.
  Some may disagree with our position and call us thin-skinned or similar, but I harbour an optimistic hope that our general OOC reaction would at least give rise to some reflection for future interaction. If one kid on the playground says he doesn't want to play a particular game, you can complain about it and call him a little bitch, or you can accept it, and either stop playing with him, or try to include him on his premises.
• The diplomatic situation
  Corrington reacts to the events that transpire IC. We haven't declared war. The current situation is that we have a blockade of Bastion (where the pirates have been tracked to) and have offered a cease fire on what we thought was your terms. A very measured response, I would say, trying to address the concerns you have brought up IC that the Sea Rats are not to be considered a single, mutually responsible, entity.
  We have also IC and OOC accepted that for some reason, no Sea Rat or group of Sea Rats can or will make any commitments. This is something that we will build into our IC actions going forward. IC actions => IC reactions.
  Sinbad's trial was presented as a response, but even if we accepted it as anything but a drunken tale, it hardly warrants a response. Yes, we could accept it and shoot the judge and jury, but I fail to see how it would affect the diplomatic situation.
  If you decide to try Sinbad in Bastion, that will be considered too, as will the outcome. But we don't want to define your reaction. We react to what happens and expect a reaction back.
  As to raiding Rassillion, that is a) not currently possible within the rules, b) largely inconsequential for the raided party under the old rules, and c) not where we have found the ships that attacked us. They have been operating out of Bastion. But of course this (not very measured) response is also something we are considering, should the rules open up for it.
  I will also say that at each and every step we have tried offering you a reasonable way to deescalate, just like we have tried to deescalate ourselves, even if we haven't been successful, of if it hasn't seemed that way.

The above is what I have tried to say all along, and I am getting frustrated that it does not seem to be understood or accepted. Maybe I have not been clear? I have done my best to be constructive and not offer any name calling, instead explaining our position.

TL;DR:

IC actions have IC consequences. We have accepted how the Sea Rats have responded and we will re-act accordingly. That is how RP should work.

[Professor Thaum]

I won't comment anything else than the built itself (because I have no interest at the ongoing skirmish)

 

Very nice built and very nice trial... they always should be like that

I hope the same for captain Tyrrell (you've been a baaaad boy)

[Mike S]

6 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

Why did Corrington not simply raid his base of operations then: Rassilon?  Operation to Stamp out the nest of pirates and all that.  I believe you can choose that option in the MRCA, and the Army location form doesn’t require a faction wide toggle.  There is solution #3 for you.

As for the whole trial thing, I’ve killed a few ESL anonymous npcs in MOCs in era 1 and was applauded for great stories.  I’m not sure why players have become so thin skinned about it in the last month.  But rest assured I will not reference Corrington ever in the future and will go back tomorrow and clean up all references.

Finally, I won’t lie.  This is getting frustrating for me simply because I keep coming up with creative solutions only for Bregir to politely say ‘no, my way is the only way’, which solves nothing and drags things out further.

Bregir explains 2 posts up. Honestly MKJosh’s story wouldn’t probably have bothered me if I hadn’t already been frustrated by being hampered by game mechanic. But as it was it seemed he was taunting us and then hiding behind the rest of you Sea Rats for protection. You say that you are not unanimous, so how can we deal with a faction that half declares war and the other half maintains they want peace? This whole situation feels like trying to win a boxing match with both hands tied behind our backs.

I also don’t get MKJosh reason about piracy. Personally I think we have enough NPC pirates so player pirates are not needed. If he wants to play as a pirate, there are plenty of NPC nations to plunder without having to target player nations. And at this point, BoBS mechanics are not setup for a meaningful player vs player encounter. The only reason I even do the MRCA is it usually is the quickest way to finance my land based ambitions. However if MKJosh feels he has to attack player nations, I’m not going try and stop him. I just don’t get it.

But let it be known that I’m not holding any illwill towards anyone. In fact, by tomorrow I’ll probably have forgotten all about this little in game conflict.

Peace

[MKJoshA]

6 hours ago, Bregir said:

We react to what happens and expect a reaction back.
 

That's all the trial was meant to be, a reaction back to your demand for the Sea Rats to be held accountable for attacking COR ships.

[Roadmonkeytj]

On 1/4/2018 at 3:42 PM, MKJoshA said:

<stuff>

Josh Im wondering how did you accomplish the archway bricks as the jury is leaving ... It seems the cheese wedges are simply levitating there as i can see no means for connection.  I would have assumed you simply laid the unit on its back but the shadows say otherwise . . .???

[Professor Thaum]

 

9 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

Josh Im wondering how did you accomplish the archway bricks as the jury is leaving ... It seems the cheese wedges are simply levitating there as i can see no means for connection.  I would have assumed you simply laid the unit on its back but the shadows say otherwise . . .???

with this part

https://www.brickowl.com/catalog/lego-slope-45-1-x-2-with-plate-15672-92946

 

pinned in a arch part

Edited January 24, 2018 by Professor Thaum

[LM71Blackbird]

This logic is the same as saying: "Chocolate is brown, dirt is brown, so dirt must be chocolate!"

[Roadmonkeytj]

12 hours ago, Professor Thaum said:

 

with this part

https://www.brickowl.com/catalog/lego-slope-45-1-x-2-with-plate-15672-92946

 

pinned in a arch part

Ahh it all makes sense now lol I just want to know where all these awesome parts were 25 years ago lol i feel like im having to learn lego again lol

[Professor Thaum]

8 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

I just want to know where all these awesome parts were 25 years ago lol i feel like im having to learn lego again lol

So do I

[Elostirion]

I just realised I had never commented on the trial: Fantastic work! A great story acommpanied by well built and well presented MOCs. Very nice contribution, thank you!