Waterbrick Down

Heroica RPG - Quest #159: An Unexpected Return

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3 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Euflear stands to one side watching the proceedings in silence for the time being before moving over to Hoke.
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"You know Cain always mentioned he thought you'd never return to the ways of the dragoon when you pursued the path of the paragon. You surprised him. What troubles you know?"

"This lot here, especially the hairy one," Hoke gestures dismissively at the politicians,"He shouldn't even be here.  All that he has done has been for his own benefit, for his own power.  He acts as if he's the savior of the poor, but they are really just his pawns."

Hoke takes in a deep breath and exhales through his nostrils.

"And then the rest of them.  It's as if they have been planning this.  They can have it.  I'm only here now out of curiosity, but not for much longer.  I'm ready for home.  It's been long enough, and I have accomplished what I set out to do."

He looks at the Veteran, up and down, wondering what conversations Cain had had about him.

"As far as being a paragon, I did it fully with the intention of returning to the dragoon.  There was an opportunity for her, Torc, in Dastan, the land of the dragons, to learn from her kin, an experience that I couldn't provide.  That, and she needed to grow.  My eyes were on her too much in battle.  I picked her when she was just an egg.  I saw how fragile she looked, so I decided to just let her grow and get accustomed to me.  I returned to a Mystic Kknight and in battle she clung to my neck and shoulders, as if she was my armor."

Hoke chuckles to himself, remembering a time that seemed so far away.

"It was much simpler then.  We'd come into this Hall, I would sit in this chair," Hoke said as he patted the cushioned high backed chair by the hearth he was currently standing beside,"and we would enjoy each other's company.  And fight.  Lots of memories, lots of adventures."

"It was better then, not for everyone, mind you, but it was better.  Now we have this," he says, again gesturing half in disgust and half in exasperation,"Back room squabbles of kingmakers."

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13 minutes ago, UsernameMDM said:

Hoke takes in a deep breath and exhales through his nostrils.

"And then the rest of them.  It's as if they have been planning this.  They can have it.  I'm only here now out of curiosity, but not for much longer.  I'm ready for home.  It's been long enough, and I have accomplished what I set out to do."

Hoke chuckles to himself, remembering a time that seemed so far away.

"It was much simpler then.  We'd come into this Hall, I would sit in this chair," Hoke said as he patted the cushioned high backed chair by the hearth he was currently standing beside,"and we would enjoy each other's company.  And fight.  Lots of memories, lots of adventures."

"It was better then, not for everyone, mind you, but it was better.  Now we have this," he says, again gesturing half in disgust and half in exasperation,"Back room squabbles of kingmakers."

Rone can't help but overhear the woes of his old friend. How many times had they fought side-by-side?

Does that mean this is the end, Hoke? You're leaving?

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31 minutes ago, The Legonater said:

Rone can't help but overhear the woes of his old friend. How many times had they fought side-by-side?

Does that mean this is the end, Hoke? You're leaving?

"Soon.  All things end my friend.  I've done what I've done, but this here, I want no part of it."

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51 minutes ago, UsernameMDM said:

"It was much simpler then.  We'd come into this Hall, I would sit in this chair," Hoke said as he patted the cushioned high backed chair by the hearth he was currently standing beside,"and we would enjoy each other's company.  And fight.  Lots of memories, lots of adventures."

"It was better then, not for everyone, mind you, but it was better."

Atramor's eyes drift towards the barstool at the very end of the counter, lingering for a long while before turning down to the nearly-drained rum in hand. He slowly lifts the glass up to his lips and takes one long sip. It feels like an eon passes before he sets the empty bottle down on the table. It takes a few moments of quiet contemplation, but then he catches the warped reflection of Petaldan and Ezeran in the glass. Another cluster of seconds pass, and the rogue suddenly breaks out into an unconscious smirk, then a chuckle.

"Holy Hel mate, don't say that, it makes us sound older'n Boomin'ham."

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9 minutes ago, CMP said:

Atramor's eyes drift towards the barstool at the very end of the counter, lingering for a long while before turning down to the nearly-drained rum in hand. He slowly lifts the glass up to his lips and takes one long sip. It feels like an eon passes before he sets the empty bottle down on the table. It takes a few moments of quiet contemplation, but then he catches the warped reflection of Petaldan and Ezeran in the glass. Another cluster of seconds pass, and the rogue suddenly breaks out into an unconscious smirk, then a chuckle.

"Holy Hel mate, don't say that, it makes us sound older'n Boomin'ham."

Hoke chuckles as well.

"I definitely don't look like he," he says, picking on the old king,"But, sometimes, I feel like it"

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18 hours ago, The Legonater said:

Rone can't help but glance towards Matthias. Still, he nods.

Matthias catches the assassin's glance, but continues to sit quietly behind a mug of cider.

 

1 hour ago, UsernameMDM said:

"And then the rest of them.  It's as if they have been planning this.  They can have it.  I'm only here now out of curiosity, but not for much longer.  I'm ready for home.  It's been long enough, and I have accomplished what I set out to do."

Throughout the conversations around him, Matthias simply listens... but when Hoke mentions leaving, the gnome finds it's the best idea he's heard. Too many politicians, he decides, and he slips out the door, heading vaguely towards Ziegfried Manor.

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3 hours ago, CMP said:

Atramor's eyes drift towards the barstool at the very end of the counter, lingering for a long while before turning down to the nearly-drained rum in hand. He slowly lifts the glass up to his lips and takes one long sip. It feels like an eon passes before he sets the empty bottle down on the table. It takes a few moments of quiet contemplation, but then he catches the warped reflection of Petaldan and Ezeran in the glass. Another cluster of seconds pass, and the rogue suddenly breaks out into an unconscious smirk, then a chuckle.

"Holy Hel mate, don't say that, it makes us sound older'n Boomin'ham."

 

3 hours ago, UsernameMDM said:

Hoke chuckles as well.

"I definitely don't look like he," he says, picking on the old king,"But, sometimes, I feel like it"

Boomingham, having for once held his peace as the others babbled, stands up from his chair at this indignation! "I may be old," he growls at Atramor and Hoke. "But you're certainly catching up. And if youth is a measure of beauty and smarts than it might be that you've both passed me already."

He clears his throat, trying to get the attention of as many heroes as he can. "Truth is you could all be a little more like Hoke. Hands off, is what I'm saying. Don't know what went and made you all into politicians all of a sudden, but you're all making me like Wolfie a little too much. Point being I don't know the last time any of you walked down the street. More often than not we're not even in the damn city. Yet here you all are saying who should be on some council you've just gone and made up. You're saying the houses were mad with power and that they didn't have any right to rule the city, which mind you they didn't truly do, but now you're saying not them but us, we're the right folks for the job." Boomingham shrugs. "Dumb. Wolfie's right about at least one thing. The people of the Hovels should get a say about who they want to lead them, and how they want to be led. If they say one King, and that King is Miss Green Skin over there," he jerks his thumb at the Scheherazade, "I don't know why you think you get to say no to that."

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1 hour ago, Zepher said:

He clears his throat, trying to get the attention of as many heroes as he can. "Truth is you could all be a little more like Hoke. Hands off, is what I'm saying. Don't know what went and made you all into politicians all of a sudden, but you're all making me like Wolfie a little too much. Point being I don't know the last time any of you walked down the street. More often than not we're not even in the damn city. Yet here you all are saying who should be on some council you've just gone and made up. You're saying the houses were mad with power and that they didn't have any right to rule the city, which mind you they didn't truly do, but now you're saying not them but us, we're the right folks for the job." Boomingham shrugs. "Dumb. Wolfie's right about at least one thing. The people of the Hovels should get a say about who they want to lead them, and how they want to be led. If they say one King, and that King is Miss Green Skin over there," he jerks his thumb at the Scheherazade, "I don't know why you think you get to say no to that."

"Nobody here wants to rule. Or deal with this nonsense at all, really. But I've seen too many problems in this city crop up because the people in charge were corrupt morons. If we sit here twiddlin' our thumbs things are just gonna slide back to the way they used to be."

"Fate of the city's sittin' in front of us. May as well try and do somethin' with that chance."

"Why do ya' even get off callin' us politicians anyway? Half the quests I've been on is gettin' sent to some foreign country and makin' choices there are people much better qualified to make. Our whole job is to try fixin' things. Sometimes that's easy. We kill bad guys and get paid. And sometimes it ain't that easy. This ain't one of the easy times. But at the end of the day we're just tryin' to fix somethin'."

"I used to get to ignore the complicated stuff. If any of ya'll wanna stick your heads in the ground and do that, that's fine by me, but maybe if we do somethin' now half our job won't be cleanin' up bad guys across our street later."

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Boomingham's eyes narrow and he laughs mirthlessly. "It's a funny thing saying you don't want a King but also claiming you better know what's good for the people than they do themselves." The funk passes over him, and he sits back down and hails Scheherazade for another drink. "I'm not saying you have to or should just walk away, and you don't have to lecture me on bad kings. Don't forget I was one, and that my Kingdom fell to a worse one down the line. But the truth of the matter is if you're going to dictate the new form of governance, and if what Wolfie says is true about his popular support, that's going to make you a dictator. Just the way words work. You can walk away from it afterward, but you'll still have been one, for however brief of a stint, and I just want to make sure you're comfortable with owning that."

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12 hours ago, Zepher said:

He clears his throat, trying to get the attention of as many heroes as he can. "Truth is you could all be a little more like Hoke. Hands off, is what I'm saying. Don't know what went and made you all into politicians all of a sudden, but you're all making me like Wolfie a little too much. Point being I don't know the last time any of you walked down the street. More often than not we're not even in the damn city. Yet here you all are saying who should be on some council you've just gone and made up. You're saying the houses were mad with power and that they didn't have any right to rule the city, which mind you they didn't truly do, but now you're saying not them but us, we're the right folks for the job." Boomingham shrugs. "Dumb. Wolfie's right about at least one thing. The people of the Hovels should get a say about who they want to lead them, and how they want to be led. If they say one King, and that King is Miss Green Skin over there," he jerks his thumb at the Scheherazade, "I don't know why you think you get to say no to that."

"Given as how the very second sentence out of your mouth when you talked with Ulric was you trying to laying claim to a stake at kingship, I'm not sure you're the best person to be lecturing us on "how we've all become politicians".

When did we say this council would be made entirely out of us? We didn't. It's a mixed council - heroes, and representatives of the full city.

The Hovels get a say, certainly. A say. You're almost describing them as if they're the entire city, which they're not. They're only a part. They have no more claim to rule over the city than do any of the individual - or combined - houses.

And that explains your last question. We get to say no, unless they can convince the rest of the city that they want to follow the Hovel's King as well - because there is more to this city than just the Hovels.

 

We don't get to treat them as if we rule over them, but nether do they get to rule over us. If they want to set up a king, they have to either break away from the city, or they have to convince the rest of us to go along with the plan."

The Black Knight shook his head.

"Also, Scheherazade - she has a name, you know - would technically be a Queen, not a King..."

1 hour ago, Zepher said:

Boomingham's eyes narrow and he laughs mirthlessly. "It's a funny thing saying you don't want a King but also claiming you better know what's good for the people than they do themselves." The funk passes over him, and he sits back down and hails Scheherazade for another drink. "I'm not saying you have to or should just walk away, and you don't have to lecture me on bad kings. Don't forget I was one, and that my Kingdom fell to a worse one down the line. But the truth of the matter is if you're going to dictate the new form of governance, and if what Wolfie says is true about his popular support, that's going to make you a dictator. Just the way words work. You can walk away from it afterward, but you'll still have been one, for however brief of a stint, and I just want to make sure you're comfortable with owning that."

"When has anyone here claimed that?"

The Munchkin looked askance at the former king.

"No one here has said anything of the sort - in fact, we've spent this entire time trying to figure out how to champion the rights and representation they've been asking for for years.

Dictator?"

Lind shook his head.

"What exactly would you call Ulric then? His early plans were based around overthrowing the current order, and setting himself up to rule as he saw fit. Seems a lot more like a dictator than anything I've heard shared in this room by anyone.

That being said," he nodded at the werewolf, "I'm glad he's come in to parlay. Step in the right direction."

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36 minutes ago, Lind Whisperer said:

"because there is more to this city than just the Hovels."

"He's actually right about something for once.  As much as some of you idealists here may hate to hear it, but without the Guilds and Houses, this city would probably all be Hovels."

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Boomingham just shrugs at the Whisperer. "All I'm saying is there isn't a lot of good in us dictating the terms. What if the entire city wanted to install the Bonaparts as dictators. Or wanted to return to rule under the Houses, which everyone here seems just about dead set against. I see, what, about thirty citizens of the city here? Not a great way to imagine a new government. Already everyone has declared no King, no Houses, a council of peers that you have selected, and at which heroes are absolutely guaranteed a seat. Maybe you don't recall that only hours ago the city was turned against us. The fake founders may have lit the match, but if there wasn't a powder keg, it wouldn't have done anything but fizzle out." He snorts. "I don't think you understand the first thing about service. If we demand at a seat at the table, it's not service, it's not heroic, it's just quid pro quo."

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25 minutes ago, Zepher said:

Boomingham just shrugs at the Whisperer. "All I'm saying is there isn't a lot of good in us dictating the terms. What if the entire city wanted to install the Bonaparts as dictators. Or wanted to return to rule under the Houses, which everyone here seems just about dead set against. I see, what, about thirty citizens of the city here? Not a great way to imagine a new government. Already everyone has declared no King, no Houses, a council of peers that you have selected, and at which heroes are absolutely guaranteed a seat. Maybe you don't recall that only hours ago the city was turned against us. The fake founders may have lit the match, but if there wasn't a powder keg, it wouldn't have done anything but fizzle out." He snorts. "I don't think you understand the first thing about service. If we demand at a seat at the table, it's not service, it's not heroic, it's just quid pro quo."

Hoke makes a "And there you have it" gesture towards Boomingham.

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28 minutes ago, Zepher said:

He snorts. "I don't think you understand the first thing about service. If we demand at a seat at the table, it's not service, it's not heroic, it's just quid pro quo."

"Lawrence is right." Karie proclaims, having listened to the conversation long enough. "Heroica and this upcoming government cannot be one and the same. I also agree with both Lawrence and Ulric that a king or queen should rule this city: a council is just as corruptible as a king. A king being assisted by a strong backbone of advisors and councillors who oversee the running of this city, but also are to hold the king responsible for the benefit of the city, is in my opinion our best bet. Whether these advisors and councillors are elected or appointed I don't care at the moment.

That being said, Lawrence, I wouldn't put you on a throne even if I put a thumbtack on it." Karie proclaims. "You're a backstabbing weasel who opportunistically cut my husband's arm off after he saved your life." Karie points at him, a cool, seething anger apparent in her eyes. "Do not think for a second that I wouldn't make your tenure as king easy for you if you somehow got your fat megablocks on the throne, Lawrence, because I don't doubt for a minute that you'd try anything and everything in your power to do so to myself and my family." Karie looks at the two would-be kings, not particularly impressed with either. She didn't know who else really could sit on the throne of the city. She was happy and content to stay out of the hens in their hen house as they clucked over a throne and a crown that did not even exist, even if part of her relished this. She enjoyed being in this great game. She enjoyed being a leader that inspired others, someone who others rallied to. Karie sighed, partially out of frustration, partially out of exhaustion. Part of her wanted to put her own stake into the crown, but she knew that Lawrence was right. She'd look like a usurper come to take a throne from the people after ousting the previous rulers.

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3 hours ago, Zepher said:

Boomingham's eyes narrow and he laughs mirthlessly. "It's a funny thing saying you don't want a King but also claiming you better know what's good for the people than they do themselves." The funk passes over him, and he sits back down and hails Scheherazade for another drink. "I'm not saying you have to or should just walk away, and you don't have to lecture me on bad kings. Don't forget I was one, and that my Kingdom fell to a worse one down the line. But the truth of the matter is if you're going to dictate the new form of governance, and if what Wolfie says is true about his popular support, that's going to make you a dictator. Just the way words work. You can walk away from it afterward, but you'll still have been one, for however brief of a stint, and I just want to make sure you're comfortable with owning that."

54 minutes ago, Zepher said:

Boomingham just shrugs at the Whisperer. "All I'm saying is there isn't a lot of good in us dictating the terms. What if the entire city wanted to install the Bonaparts as dictators. Or wanted to return to rule under the Houses, which everyone here seems just about dead set against. I see, what, about thirty citizens of the city here? Not a great way to imagine a new government. Already everyone has declared no King, no Houses, a council of peers that you have selected, and at which heroes are absolutely guaranteed a seat. Maybe you don't recall that only hours ago the city was turned against us. The fake founders may have lit the match, but if there wasn't a powder keg, it wouldn't have done anything but fizzle out." He snorts. "I don't think you understand the first thing about service. If we demand at a seat at the table, it's not service, it's not heroic, it's just quid pro quo."

That's a fair notion. We certainly don't have the right to demand anything, but the fact is we are an armed organization equivalent to vigilantism. Heroica needs to be responsible to the city - we should have a seat on the council not for influence but for différance. We need to be responsible to the council just as much as anyone else, if not more. If Heroica is represented on the council, then we can be held accountable. If there's a better, more neutral way to do that, I'm game.

Look, I grew up in the Kingdoms too. I've seen what absolute power can do to a person, to a country. I don't think anyone here is dictating anything, rather, we're trying to gather the largest group of representatives possible so that they can do all the governing. I would love to believe that this city could figure out everything without any assistance, but I think the fear is that they'll just fall into the same old factions. Heroica is a powerhouse, and it's naive to think that this Hall can just remain uninvolved. But if we can present enough of the pieces so that those better suited to lead can put them together, I think that's worth doing.

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3 hours ago, Zepher said:

Boomingham's eyes narrow and he laughs mirthlessly. "It's a funny thing saying you don't want a King but also claiming you better know what's good for the people than they do themselves." The funk passes over him, and he sits back down and hails Scheherazade for another drink. "I'm not saying you have to or should just walk away, and you don't have to lecture me on bad kings. Don't forget I was one, and that my Kingdom fell to a worse one down the line. But the truth of the matter is if you're going to dictate the new form of governance, and if what Wolfie says is true about his popular support, that's going to make you a dictator. Just the way words work. You can walk away from it afterward, but you'll still have been one, for however brief of a stint, and I just want to make sure you're comfortable with owning that."

"Ulric's popular support is the Hovels. There's a lot of people there, but it ain't the whole city. And, honestly?"

56 minutes ago, UsernameMDM said:

"He's actually right about something for once.  As much as some of you idealists here may hate to hear it, but without the Guilds and Houses, this city would probably all be Hovels."

"Hoke's right. There's a balancin' act. There needs to be someone stickin' up for the common folk and payin' the bills and runnin' the businesses. We just need to be careful about exactly who's doin' those things. We're Heroica, mate. We're the only people that get to see both sides of the coin. We're damn familiar with how rich and backwards the Houses were but also with how the people suffer under 'em."

"Let's say half the city supports Ulric because he looks out for 'em. And let's say the richer half want the Houses back because they make 'em money. Eubric can't get better without Ulric, but it can't function without stable money. Somethin' is gettin' lost if we put things up to a vote, and I'd rather strike a middle ground here."

"We have perspective nobody else does because we've seen the best and the worst of the city." 

51 minutes ago, Zepher said:

Boomingham just shrugs at the Whisperer. "All I'm saying is there isn't a lot of good in us dictating the terms. What if the entire city wanted to install the Bonaparts as dictators. Or wanted to return to rule under the Houses, which everyone here seems just about dead set against. I see, what, about thirty citizens of the city here? Not a great way to imagine a new government. Already everyone has declared no King, no Houses, a council of peers that you have selected, and at which heroes are absolutely guaranteed a seat. Maybe you don't recall that only hours ago the city was turned against us. The fake founders may have lit the match, but if there wasn't a powder keg, it wouldn't have done anything but fizzle out." He snorts. "I don't think you understand the first thing about service. If we demand at a seat at the table, it's not service, it's not heroic, it's just quid pro quo."

"I still don't think heroes should be on this council. I think we just need to get this damn thing set up and then wash our hands of it. I wanna give this city some damn direction because it damn well needs it right now, then have Heroica be its damn own thing. I don't see what's so damn complicated about that," grumbles Atramor.

7 minutes ago, Kintobor said:

"Lawrence is right." Karie proclaims, having listened to the conversation long enough. "Heroica and this upcoming government cannot be one and the same. I also agree with both Lawrence and Ulric that a king or queen should rule this city: a council is just as corruptible as a king. A king being assisted by a strong backbone of advisors and councillors who oversee the running of this city, but also are to hold the king responsible for the benefit of the city, is in my opinion our best bet. Whether these advisors and councillors are elected or appointed I don't care at the moment.

"You're wastin' your breath unless you have a name in mind. And I don't think that's how kings work. They are in charge, period. Nothin' stops a corrupt ruler but force. It's too much power. I again point you to Azzurat. Not even that king's wife, the damn Oracle, was able to stop him when he sunk the entire kingdom into the desert. He just did it."

6 minutes ago, The Legonater said:

That's a fair notion. We certainly don't have the right to demand anything, but the fact is we are an armed organization equivalent to vigilantism. Heroica needs to be responsible to the city - we should have a seat on the council not for influence but for différance. We need to be responsible to the council just as much as anyone else, if not more. If Heroica is represented on the council, then we can be held accountable. If there's a better, more neutral way to do that, I'm game.

Look, I grew up in the Kingdoms too. I've seen what absolute power can do to a person, to a country. I don't think anyone here is dictating anything, rather, we're trying to gather the largest group of representatives possible so that they can do all the governing. I would love to believe that this city could figure out everything without any assistance, but I think the fear is that they'll just fall into the same old factions. Heroica is a powerhouse, and it's naive to think that this Hall can just remain uninvolved. But if we can present enough of the pieces so that those better suited to lead can put them together, I think that's worth doing.

"Still dont' think Heroica needs to be involved any more than it was in the past. Call us mercenaries, call us a public service, I don't care, but if we're gonna keep bein' friggin' unkillable problem-solvers the least we can do is not be biased about it."

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14 minutes ago, Kintobor said:

"Lawrence is right." Karie proclaims, having listened to the conversation long enough. "Heroica and this upcoming government cannot be one and the same. I also agree with both Lawrence and Ulric that a king or queen should rule this city: a council is just as corruptible as a king. A king being assisted by a strong backbone of advisors and councillors who oversee the running of this city, but also are to hold the king responsible for the benefit of the city, is in my opinion our best bet. Whether these advisors and councillors are elected or appointed I don't care at the moment.

That being said, Lawrence, I wouldn't put you on a throne even if I put a thumbtack on it." Karie proclaims. "You're a backstabbing weasel who opportunistically cut my husband's arm off after he saved your life." Karie points at him, a cool, seething anger apparent in her eyes. "Do not think for a second that I wouldn't make your tenure as king easy for you if you somehow got your fat megablocks on the throne, Lawrence, because I don't doubt for a minute that you'd try anything and everything in your power to do so to myself and my family." Karie looks at the two would-be kings, not particularly impressed with either. She didn't know who else really could sit on the throne of the city. She was happy and content to stay out of the hens in their hen house as they clucked over a throne and a crown that did not even exist, even if part of her relished this. She enjoyed being in this great game. She enjoyed being a leader that inspired others, someone who others rallied to. Karie sighed, partially out of frustration, partially out of exhaustion. Part of her wanted to put her own stake into the crown, but she knew that Lawrence was right. She'd look like a usurper come to take a throne from the people after ousting the previous rulers.

"Eh, don't worry love, you wouldn't be able to do a thing about me because first thing I'd do would be to throw you in jail." He winks.

"Point is I'm not sure if we should have a King either. I'm not advocating for any particular way of things falling out, except that we're not the ones to make the decision. And Dyric, you're more than right. Voice the opinion all you want. But maybe as a citizen and not as a conquerer setting terms. But I'll say it again. If you're using absolute power to ensure there isn't any absolute power... well, you're a smart boy, I'm sure you can figure out why that' a contradiction."

"I've got an idea for your council, Atramor. How about we take the... hm, six seems a fair number... six most influential groups in the city. People who have power, but also the respect of the people, the majority let's say, the Hovels being a minority of the city. So you take the six most influential groups in the city... and make sure, too, that there's some rivalry between them so they don't all become cozy with each other and strip the city bare. Those six factions can all serve as the council. And then, since they're the rulers and what not, they should have some sort of authority over the Town Watch. And what's more, maybe they can sort of direct Heroica at what sort of problems they think need solving. They could come to the Hall to post quests for us to go on. Sound good?"

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1 minute ago, Zepher said:

"I've got an idea for your council, Atramor. How about we take the... hm, six seems a fair number... six most influential groups in the city. People who have power, but also the respect of the people, the majority let's say, the Hovels being a minority of the city. So you take the six most influential groups in the city... and make sure, too, that there's some rivalry between them so they don't all become cozy with each other and strip the city bare. Those six factions can all serve as the council. And then, since they're the rulers and what not, they should have some sort of authority over the Town Watch. And what's more, maybe they can sort of direct Heroica at what sort of problems they think need solving. They could come to the Hall to post quests for us to go on. Sound good?"

"That's why we don't do groups. We put people on the damn thing, people the city needs to keep it runnin', the people that risked their damn lives fightin' for it. We make sure the common folk have a voice this time, we make sure the Watch has a voice and isn't just a tool, and we kill the whole rivalry thing by makin' sure each person focuses on its own thing, for example, let's have one person representin' the business end of the city and not two competing merchant groups."

"This council forces 'em to work together instead of against eachother. That part is pretty damn important."

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3 minutes ago, Zepher said:

"Point is I'm not sure if we should have a King either. I'm not advocating for any particular way of things falling out, except that we're not the ones to make the decision. And Dyric, you're more than right. Voice the opinion all you want. But maybe as a citizen and not as a conquerer setting terms. But I'll say it again. If you're using absolute power to ensure there isn't any absolute power... well, you're a smart boy, I'm sure you can figure out why that' a contradiction."

1

Rone bristled, but couldn't deny the old man had a point. Damn, no wonder the Alliance voted for him.

Look, Heroica is part of this city. If I were a citizen, I wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of power running unabated, especially after this past week. But as a citizen, I also wouldn't be comfortable with the political power vacuum the Founders have left. Like it or not, the Founders have made us a part of the political discussion here when they took the city by force. From the outside perspective, Heroica just seized Eubric. It's up to us to return that power with an open hand. If you have a better way of doing that, I'm all ears. 

Maybe this all comes with a public statement. I don't want Heroica to be a tool of the state, but I don't think we can be entirely unaccountable either. Maybe we make an official conference saying that, with the creation of this council, Heroica will not be party to any more Eubric politics. We make a clear step back. Set up a neutral circle of Veterans, get rid of the whole 'reputation' function, and just allow Heroica to be a base for acts of service again.

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Just now, The Legonater said:

Maybe this all comes with a public statement. I don't want Heroica to be a tool of the state, but I don't think we can be entirely unaccountable either. Maybe we make an official conference saying that, with the creation of this council, Heroica will not be party to any more Eubric politics. We make a clear step back. Set up a neutral circle of Veterans, get rid of the whole 'reputation' function, and just allow Heroica to be a base for acts of service again.

"Best idea I've heard so far."

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"Hands off? What the hell did we just have that whole fight with the Founders for? If we want to talk about a popular government, they were it. Oh, they gained their popularity by going behind people's back? Well, haven't the Wolfgang done the same? We're already bloody messed up in this city's politics and if you think that we can pull out now, and go do our own thing, then you're leaving this city to a civil war. What's the point in our rescuing this city from Rosier if we leave it to destroy itself? It's true, I'm not comfortable with the fact that Heroica will be more or less a dictatorship controlling the government (though even there I think you give us too much credit, we're not really that powerful) but if not who? Let's face it, when push comes to shove, we are the only ones who are really ready to stick up for this city. When the question of Eubric becoming a necropolis under Rosier came up, who were the only ones who gave a damn about it? I'm not saying, that Heroica should be actively involved in the running of the city, but someone needs to be there to ensure that the people have a voice even when their leaders turn against them. Because let's face it, even a king of the people's choosing may choose to go his own way once he gets in power."

Edited by Palathadric

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1 hour ago, Zepher said:
1 hour ago, Kintobor said:

"Lawrence is right." Karie proclaims, having listened to the conversation long enough. "Heroica and this upcoming government cannot be one and the same. I also agree with both Lawrence and Ulric that a king or queen should rule this city: a council is just as corruptible as a king. A king being assisted by a strong backbone of advisors and councillors who oversee the running of this city, but also are to hold the king responsible for the benefit of the city, is in my opinion our best bet. Whether these advisors and councillors are elected or appointed I don't care at the moment.

"I've got an idea for your council, Atramor. How about we take the... hm, six seems a fair number... six most influential groups in the city. People who have power, but also the respect of the people, the majority let's say, the Hovels being a minority of the city. So you take the six most influential groups in the city... and make sure, too, that there's some rivalry between them so they don't all become cozy with each other and strip the city bare. Those six factions can all serve as the council. And then, since they're the rulers and what not, they should have some sort of authority over the Town Watch. And what's more, maybe they can sort of direct Heroica at what sort of problems they think need solving. They could come to the Hall to post quests for us to go on. Sound good?"

"Why not set up the council, and let the council elect their own 'leader-king'."

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On 10/28/2018 at 6:15 PM, KotZ said:

"Yes. We met on a quest to Dastan, hadn't seen each other since. We grew close over that adventure."

"Really?" Throlar raised an eyebrow.

 

On 10/28/2018 at 6:20 PM, Flipz said:

43775169850_59442e015e_t.jpg
"Ace Assassin, thank you very much.  But, uh...good to meet you, I guess.  Friend of Kiray's and all."

"Well I don't think I've known Kiray long enough to be her friend, but thank you. The name's Throlar Wineghilm." he said extending a hand.

 

Throlar looked at the storm of an argument growing around them, sighed, and held up a hand;

"Everyone, please. If I may, I feel we should probably bring a few more people in, specifically the leaders of the remaining major factions in Eubric, before we begin discussing how the city is going to be run. After all they have as much (or more) of a stake in this as we do. And besides, I have some opinions of my own I'd like to state and I don't want to have to repeat myself to them later."

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4 hours ago, Kintobor said:

"Lawrence is right." Karie proclaims, having listened to the conversation long enough. "Heroica and this upcoming government cannot be one and the same. I also agree with both Lawrence and Ulric that a king or queen should rule this city: a council is just as corruptible as a king. A king being assisted by a strong backbone of advisors and councillors who oversee the running of this city, but also are to hold the king responsible for the benefit of the city, is in my opinion our best bet. Whether these advisors and councillors are elected or appointed I don't care at the moment.

Lind chuckled.

"You know what's funny? That's exactly what I was trying to do with the Union. Exactly.

Only difference was, I was trying to be elected as an Electorate - make Eubric into a republic, not a kingdom."

4 hours ago, Zepher said:

"I've got an idea for your council, Atramor. How about we take the... hm, six seems a fair number... six most influential groups in the city. People who have power, but also the respect of the people, the majority let's say, the Hovels being a minority of the city. So you take the six most influential groups in the city... and make sure, too, that there's some rivalry between them so they don't all become cozy with each other and strip the city bare. Those six factions can all serve as the council. And then, since they're the rulers and what not, they should have some sort of authority over the Town Watch. And what's more, maybe they can sort of direct Heroica at what sort of problems they think need solving. They could come to the Hall to post quests for us to go on. Sound good?"

"So you're saying we remake the Crescent Union and the Alliance, only now they have even more power because they're working in tandem?" The Munchkin crossed his eyes.

"Best case scenario, you're describing the situation immediately before they formed. Six groups that more or less ruled the city without check, and 'directed Heroica' at 'problems' through quests.

Look where that ended up."`

4 hours ago, CMP said:

"That's why we don't do groups. We put people on the damn thing, people the city needs to keep it runnin', the people that risked their damn lives fightin' for it. We make sure the common folk have a voice this time, we make sure the Watch has a voice and isn't just a tool, and we kill the whole rivalry thing by makin' sure each person focuses on its own thing, for example, let's have one person representin' the business end of the city and not two competing merchant groups."

"This council forces 'em to work together instead of against eachother. That part is pretty damn important."

"But how could we guarantee that that person represents all of the businesses fairly, and isn't biased in favor of one or another? Nearly all of the people I can think of are tied in with one group or another."

4 hours ago, Palathadric said:

"Hands off? What the hell did we just have that whole fight with the Founders for? If we want to talk about a popular government, they were it. Oh, they gained their popularity by going behind people's back? Well, haven't the Wolfgang done the same? We're already bloody messed up in this city's politics and if you think that we can pull out now, and go do our own thing, then you're leaving this city to a civil war. What's the point in our rescuing this city from Rosier if we leave it to destroy itself? It's true, I'm not comfortable with the fact that Heroica will be more or less a dictatorship controlling the government (though even there I think you give us too much credit, we're not really that powerful) but if not who? Let's face it, when push comes to shove, we are the only ones who are really ready to stick up for this city. When the question of Eubric becoming a necropolis under Rosier came up, who were the only ones who gave a damn about it? I'm not saying, that Heroica should be actively involved in the running of the city, but someone needs to be there to ensure that the people have a voice even when their leaders turn against them. Because let's face it, even a king of the people's choosing may choose to go his own way once he gets in power."

"Well put, friend Monk! If we just set it up, and leave it alone, what's to prevent it from falling apart again? Some involvement is required.

But I don't think it needs to be structured anything like a dictatorship."

Lind spread out his hands.

"I think Atramor was on to something with his "see both sides" thing. And I don't think anyone's proposals have properly addressed that. The rich people's ambitions usually fall along one line...the poor's along another.

What if, each of the Houses has a representative - so, six-ish, depending on if the Guild of Invision ever comes back, etc., - and we find the six groups that most define the poor of this city? That makes twelve people. Six to a side.

Then Heroica has three of our own representatives on the council, and they serve as the swing votes - the ones who can see both sides of the conflict, and can make the best choice as to whether the less fortunate's plans are better for the city - or the Houses'.

Why three? Well, if we only put one person on the council, then his vote - and the city's future - will ultimately be determined to how he perceives the world. Skrall, and I, for instance, see things radically differently - yet we're both, I'd like to think, decent people. But he - I assume - would tend to favor the Wolfgang, whereas I would probably tend to favor the Houses - to an extent. But, if there are three of us, then there is more room for us each to challenge our own perceptions.

I'm not saying the numbers are final - I think the greater city needs more representation, but there are only so many Houses. I'm not sure how we would address that - perhaps we could have two House members for each house, voting independently? And the number of City representatives is doubled as well. That would give us a total Council number of twenty-seven.

Surely that would be enough people to at least moderately well represent all interests of this city, while balancing it out so no one side has too much power?"

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4 hours ago, Lind Whisperer said:

Why three? Well, if we only put one person on the council, then his vote - and the city's future - will ultimately be determined to how he perceives the world. Skrall, and I, for instance, see things radically differently - yet we're both, I'd like to think, decent people. But he - I assume - would tend to favor the Wolfgang, whereas I would probably tend to favor the Houses - to an extent. But, if there are three of us, then there is more room for us each to challenge our own perceptions.

I'm not saying the numbers are final - I think the greater city needs more representation, but there are only so many Houses. I'm not sure how we would address that - perhaps we could have two House members for each house, voting independently? And the number of City representatives is doubled as well. That would give us a total Council number of twenty-seven.

Surely that would be enough people to at least moderately well represent all interests of this city, while balancing it out so no one side has too much power?"

1

Rone smirks at Whisperer's suggestion. Twenty-seven people? I thought you wanted to get things done.

Look, winning was easy, young man, but governing's harder. If you put twenty-seven people on a council, everything will be bogged down in debate. Sound familiar? Six-to-ten people. Tops. And Heroica should not get a swing vote on the council, if they should  be on the council in the first place.  

9 hours ago, Palathadric said:

"Let's face it, when push comes to shove, we are the only ones who are really ready to stick up for this city. When the question of Eubric becoming a necropolis under Rosier came up, who were the only ones who gave a damn about it? I'm not saying, that Heroica should be actively involved in the running of the city, but someone needs to be there to ensure that the people have a voice even when their leaders turn against them. Because let's face it, even a king of the people's choosing may choose to go his own way once he gets in power."

1

Which is why we don't put a king forward. An evenly split council will make sure all interests are presents. This isn't going to be the Houses, this is going to be a discussion. If one leader goes south, the rest can make sure they step in line. There are plenty of good people in this city who have a stake in making it better, I say we trust them to make the right choices.

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