What's the current state of third party 9V?

[fred67]

Hi,

I've been away for a while, and without writing a huge story about it, I'm wondering what the status of third party 9v track and accessories is.

I was a backer for ME Models metal track - I was also one of the people who expanded their order back in the summer of 2016, and received my full shipment last January.  I take it they are having a lot of problems now, and a lot of people did not receive their product.  That's really unfortunate... we need some successful players in this market, even if it means higher prices to cover costs.

I was recently able to finally set up the track for my annual Christmas train set up - the only time I get to keep out a functioning train layout.  The ME track was... interesting.  Coming from all LEGO, I will say the conductivity seemed flawless compared to years past, where I always seemed to have bad track along the way somewhere that made the train slow, even after cleaning.  I was very impressed with it.  That said, the larger radius curved seemed to suffer from not being perfect arcs when put together.  Putting the track together - and keeping it together while trying to connect other track, was also fairly frustrating - and I ended up just not using the end plastic pieces that join sections together, and instead just let the traditional rail joiners hold them together.

But I checked ME recently, and as we all know there is no more track available.  I was so optimistic at the time if the campaign - even answering surveys of what I would like to see next (like new motors).

So I searched here.... bricktracks seemed like it would have been worth a shot, but the campaign failed, probably because it was competing with the ME campaign, but I don't know.  Still, bricktracks seems like a functioning business - but I only see plastic in the store.

So is there any news that I'm missing?  I really don't want to just give it up - I really dislike battery operated for a number of reasons.

 

[legoman666]

I've resorted to turning my own aluminum wheels so I can pick up track power and use L motors. For 9v track I just wait to get lucky on eBay. I do have a bunch of ME Models curved metal track though.

I make hybrid systems that recharge super fast so I can still use cool stuff like BrickTracks r120 and 4d brix r148 crossovers. 

It's tough living the 9v dream.

Edited January 2, 2018 by legoman666

[McWaffel]

To be honest, after a while of research and thinking I came to the following conclusion: 9V is dead. If you want 9V track, buy genuine Lego 9V off of ebay or bricklink. 3rd party electric track has been absolutely poor both in sales and quality. 

A better way would be to develop a hybrid system, like @legoman666 said. One that runs of a rechargable battery which picks up energy from the track when it's running on 9V track and uses saved energy from the battery to run on plastic track - for which there is a great selection of amazing 3rd party track! In my opinion this is probably the best way forward. 

[Haddock51]

4 hours ago, McWaffel said:

To be honest, after a while of research and thinking I came to the following conclusion: 9V is dead. If you want 9V track, buy genuine Lego 9V off of ebay or bricklink. 3rd party electric track has been absolutely poor both in sales and quality. 

I disagree with your conclusion - 9V is not dead!

Personally, I never believed in 3rd party electric tracks (with high quality). I really feel sorry for all those 9V guys who spent a lot of money for crap and illusions.

Over the past years when building my Lego Train 9V Extreme layout, I have purchased hundreds - in fact close to a thousand - of original Lego 9V tracks and points through BrickLink and Ebay, most of them used. However, if you spend some time with careful cleaning, they almost become new again.

And I had no problems to increase my stock of (brand new) 9V engines. So at least to me, 9V is more alive than ever!

Edited January 2, 2018 by Haddock51

[Hod Carrier]

I think that what @McWaffel is suggesting is that third party 9V appears to be dead.

[Ex cinno]

Hi @Haddock51 where you get all your brand new 9v engines? I am interested because I too think that 9v is not dead.

[Haddock51]

34 minutes ago, Ex cinno said:

Hi @Haddock51 where you get all your brand new 9v engines? I am interested because I too think that 9v is not dead.

 

Right now, there are some 30 brand new units available at BrickLink, with prices starting at 73 Euros.

Back in July, I bought 6 units from budgetbricks and 4 units from Bricks "R" Us. In October, I found 4 units at sterihobby and in december 3 units at Bad Bricks.

Usually, I search for sellers with high quantities (and reasonable prices) and "clean" their inventory (to keep shipping costs low).

Over the past years I learned that new engines pop up periodically. So keep checking once a while.

My stock of 9V engines is now up at 140 units and I don't plan to buy more in the new future. However, I have plans to build new trains ... So never say never ...

3 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

I think that what @McWaffel is suggesting is that third party 9V appears to be dead.

To be honest, I couldn't care less about 3rd party 9V ...

Having been a member of the 9V family for more than 20 years - and witnessed all the ups and downs - I am still convinced that there is a bright future for 9V, irrespective of TLGs decision to discontinue this remarkable product line some ten years ago.

Recently, I had an interesting conversation with @Electrodiva on this subject in my thread "Lego Train 9V Extreme - ready". I find it always interesting to observe when people still decide to go for 9V instead of PF.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Haddock51

[coaster]

I (BrickTracks) have been working to develop the 9V product line for some time now.  The roadblock has consistently been tooling costs.  To do it the way LEGO did requires a progressive die stamping for each rail, which cost about $25k apiece, so doing the R104s and R120s in 9V in exactly the same way would cost over $100k in tooling for the rails alone.  But, we are exploring several other options, and we'll figure it out.  The key for us though is quality: the tracks need to blend seamlessly in both function and appearance with the LEGO ones.  That's one of my 2018 resolutions: bring 9V tracks to market.

[garethjellis]

I an very excited for the possibility of 9v 104s etc. I believe PF over 9v tracks using pickups will change the game for control. 

[fred67]

Thanks for all the replies.  It's unfortunate that no third parties seem to be successful at making 9V replacements.  I know TLG was losing money on 9v (or so the story goes), but I would pay double, at this point.

I'm not really happy with the hybrid solutions because you still have the big drawback of needing the battery pack hidden somewhere in your train.  You can do very stylized trains with the 9V motors (like the moon-base train I'm thinking of trying); I feel like you need to build around a battery for PF.  I get the advantages of PF, but I just don't really care about them (although if I ever get a really large layout, I might).

I know you can still by NIB motors on bricklink, but they seem pretty expensive.  I have a handful - maybe 5 or 6, I suppose I will buy a few more.  Crossovers and switches are fairly expensive - I'm glad I have a pair.  My layouts are not very complicated... even the moon base I want to make would just have a loop.

It's too bad.  I understand the reasoning behind everything, it just doesn't go with what I would like, and it doesn't go with traditional model railroading.

[Haddock51]

20 hours ago, coaster said:

I (BrickTracks) have been working to develop the 9V product line for some time now.  The roadblock has consistently been tooling costs.  To do it the way LEGO did requires a progressive die stamping for each rail, which cost about $25k apiece, so doing the R104s and R120s in 9V in exactly the same way would cost over $100k in tooling for the rails alone.  But, we are exploring several other options, and we'll figure it out.  The key for us though is quality: the tracks need to blend seamlessly in both function and appearance with the LEGO ones.  That's one of my 2018 resolutions: bring 9V tracks to market.

Let me share with you some comments and personal thoughts:

Whatever reasons TLG had to discontinue the 9V product line, I still believe there could have been ways to avoid that disastrous decision and continue further developing and exploiting the potentials of this outstanding train product line.

So I am not surprised that 3rd party nitiatives have been taken ever since to continue developing 9V where TLG left walk over, particularly w.r.t. tracks and track geometries.

Having said that - and without taking on a position of spokesman for all the disappointed and desillusionized 9V fans - I also take a firm stand on how such product development, marketing and sales should be performed - or rather should not be performed.

The numbers you are referring to above are no surprise to me. They just confirm some very basic facts, i.e. the need for significant upfront investments in tooling machines, followed by significant investments in production capacity and testing, pre marketing, sales etc. That reads: a need for tons of money, negative cashflows upfront in combination with substantial business/financial risks.

Of course you know that.

What I am strongly reacting against is the fact that the development and marketing of alternative 9V tracks so far has been performed on some kind of trial and error basis - at the expense of "hungry" 9V fans.

And this to me is untenable, whatever your own ambitions, incentives etc. are.

If TLG was unable to keep this product line profitable - in particular w.r.t. to tracks - I find it hard to believe that this can be achieved on a small scale basis, with high expectations on product quality, production capacity and delivery security.

Yes, I admire your firm will and conviction. However, I also hope that your 2018 resolution will be characterized by a much more professional attitude and business mindset, backed up with a solid financial basis.

And make sure you don't experiment on the back of your potential customers.

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Haddock51

[coaster]

Just now, Haddock51 said:

Let me share with you some comments and personal thoughts:

Whatever reasons TLG had to discontinue the 9V product line, I still believe there could have been ways to avoid that disastrous decision and continue further developing and exploiting the potentials of this outstanding train product line.

So I am not surprised that 3rd party nitiatives have been taken ever since to continue developing 9V where TLG left walk over, particularly w.r.t. tracks and track geometries.

Having said that - and without taking on a position of spokesman for all the disappointed and desillusionized 9V fans - I also take a firm stand on how such product development, marketing and sales should be performed - or rather should not be performed.

The numbers you are referring to above are no surprise to me. They just confirm some very basic facts, i.e. the need for huge upfront investments in tooling machines, followed by huge costs for product capacity and testing, pre marketing, sales etc. That reads: a need for tons of money, negative cashflows upfront in combination with substantial business/financial risks.

Of course you know that.

What I am strongly reacting against is the fact that the development and marketing of alternative 9V tracks so far has been performed on some kind of trial and error basis - at the expense of "hungry" 9V fans.

And this to me is untenable, whatever your own ambitions, incentives etc. are.

If TLG was unable to keep this product line profitable - in particular w.r.t. to tracks - I find it hard to believe that this can be achieved on a small scale basis, with high expectations on product quality, production capacity and delivery security.

Yes, I admire your firm will and conviction. However, I also hope that your 2018 resolution will be characterized by a much more professional attitude and business mindset, backed up with a solid financial basis.

 

Understandable, and yes, we strive for professionalism.  We aren't promising parts or other deliverables, nor taking any orders, until we have actual product on the shelf.  We're investing in the development of these tracks on our own, and understand not all roads will get us there.  It's quite possible this proves to be untenable, but we won't know nor will we quit until we've exhausted all possible alternatives.

[BrickMusher]

I was also waiting for a long time for 9V Tracks. Although I have plenty of straight 9V Tracks, at some point it shows up that running trains on a 20m+ layout is somewhat annoying due to 1) the noise created by the connections between the tracks, and 2) the lack of wide radii.

There are Track-profiles available that fit quite well with the original tracks, and I was able to get them in 1,2m long pieces. So if you allready ballast your tracks, it looks very similar to the originals, at least from a distance like e.g. 1m+

Curve radii are possible if you bent the profiles, I tried 104 and 120 stud radii. That worked quite well. The only disadvantage is that it is a lot of work to get this profiles on the Layout if you doing an exhibition......

I had other priorities in the last year, but actuall I preparing my first modules of 3x4 and 4x4 Baseplates with fixed DIY-Track, so build-up will be faster and mor comfortable in the future. Maybe I can ad some photos during next weekend.

Anyway, it is some work, but I love the result. Here is a Video from 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyaAb7yivzo&t=24s

Before 0:39 is original Track, after a first wide curve. At 0:51 the long straight track starts. The train runs very smooth even at high speed.

Creating switch-points and crossings will be an other challenge

 

 

Keep building

BrickMusher

 

[Haddock51]

1 minute ago, coaster said:

Understandable, and yes, we strive for professionalism.  We aren't promising parts or other deliverables, nor taking any orders, until we have actual product on the shelf.  We're investing in the development of these tracks on our own, and understand not all roads will get us there.  It's quite possible this proves to be untenable, but we won't know nor will we quit until we've exhausted all possible alternatives.

I wish you all good luck.

[fred67]

5 hours ago, Haddock51 said:

...

What I am strongly reacting against is the fact that the development and marketing of alternative 9V tracks so far has been performed on some kind of trial and error basis - at the expense of "hungry" 9V fans.

And this to me is untenable, whatever your own ambitions, incentives etc. are.

...

I agree completely and yet, at the same time, on small scales (i.e. not a huge investment), I don't mind trying (paying for) the alternatives out there and giving my feedback.  I'm not part of a LUG or LEGO train club - I wish I had the time to be part of one, but I don't - so it's just me, though.

I bought the original ME tracks, and don't regret it.  I also backed their kickstarter campaign and added extra rail when they offered it, and was one of the ones who got it.  I am not thrilled with the product, but it works, and I think the general idea they used was a good one.  It could have been implemented better (I'd actually write a review of it if they were still shipping and selling product, but now it would be pointless), but at the very least the electrical conductivity was spectacular (as it should be, built on over 100 years of refinements in traditional model railroading).

The problem is I don't really need rail, exactly, but I need the interesting parts - turnouts and such, the motors...

I also want to make it clear that I do have PF stuff as well - motors and controllers, the non-rechargeable battery packs, etc., and I don't mind playing with that stuff, but if/when I make a real "permanent" layout, I want it to be 9V.

I still think a great solution would be a generic o-gauge "LEGO-ized" train motor would pretty much solve everything.  Then we could just buy o-gauge supplies from a variety of vendors.